Remove the new Lung Burst buff.

[Spacemanspark]

 

Got bursted lungs? That's great, you'll only get one notification about it and then drop dead about ten minutes later without any further notification now.

 

Why did we add this? If a miner, say, has a small accident, or a security officer is in a firefight and a window blows open next to them and they are both not near enough medbay/ can't get there in time, then it's Good Game No Rematch for you, buddy. Bursted lungs to begin with were very annoying to deal with, this just makes it ten times worse. It's like being facehugged now, the only better thing about this than being facehugged is that you can be cloned, if someone actually gives a damn.

 

TL;DR: Fix this, please.

 

Edited November 22, 2014 by Guest

[Wintermote]

 

It's what actually happens to the human body during rapid (within milliseconds) decompression. The lungs expand within the chest cavity before the body can even react to it, stretch past what the lungs and pleural membrane can handle and tear, causing blood to fill the lungs and preventing the lungs from properly functioning anymore.

 

During slower decompression you can continue to hold your breath - it's actually the speed of the expansion of the lungs that causes damage, rather than the fact that they're expanding too much. (though expanding too much can still damage your lungs, it's more likely that the person would simply exhale when it began to hurt)

 

Decompression itself causes your lungs to work in reverse, so being in a decompressed room, or space, without a pressure suit, should knock the player out within ~20-30 seconds as deoxygenated blood from the lungs reaches the brain.

 

Considering all of these things, I have absolutely no issue with severe lung damage as a result of decompression. It's a fact of how lethal a vacuum can be.

 

The only thing I take issue with is how poorly communicated the issue is to the player. I've ruptured my lungs in game before and thought it was a problem with my internals not properly engaging, when really it was just that I'd suffered traumatic internal injury.

 

[Streaky Haddock]

I think that's the complaint here. One message, easily missed, then suddenly collapsing.

[Spacemanspark]

 

It's what actually happens to the human body during rapid (within milliseconds) decompression. The lungs expand within the chest cavity before the body can even react to it, stretch past what the lungs and pleural membrane can handle and tear, causing blood to fill the lungs and preventing the lungs from properly functioning anymore.

 

During slower decompression you can continue to hold your breath - it's actually the speed of the expansion of the lungs that causes damage, rather than the fact that they're expanding too much. (though expanding too much can still damage your lungs, it's more likely that the person would simply exhale when it began to hurt)

 

Decompression itself causes your lungs to work in reverse, so being in a decompressed room, or space, without a pressure suit, should knock the player out within ~20-30 seconds as deoxygenated blood from the lungs reaches the brain.

 

Considering all of these things, I have absolutely no issue with severe lung damage as a result of decompression. It's a fact of how lethal a vacuum can be.

 

The only thing I take issue with is how poorly communicated the issue is to the player. I've ruptured my lungs in game before and thought it was a problem with my internals not properly engaging, when really it was just that I'd suffered traumatic internal injury.

We should be focused more on what's funner for the community, not what is more realistic, in my opinion. I'm fairly sure I'm not the only one who would say this.

 

I think that's the complaint here. One message, easily missed, then suddenly collapsing.

 

No, I meant we should revert to how we had it.

 

[Fj45]

 

It's what actually happens to the human body during rapid (within milliseconds) decompression. The lungs expand within the chest cavity before the body can even react to it, stretch past what the lungs and pleural membrane can handle and tear, causing blood to fill the lungs and preventing the lungs from properly functioning anymore.

 

During slower decompression you can continue to hold your breath - it's actually the speed of the expansion of the lungs that causes damage, rather than the fact that they're expanding too much. (though expanding too much can still damage your lungs, it's more likely that the person would simply exhale when it began to hurt)

 

Decompression itself causes your lungs to work in reverse, so being in a decompressed room, or space, without a pressure suit, should knock the player out within ~20-30 seconds as deoxygenated blood from the lungs reaches the brain.

 

Considering all of these things, I have absolutely no issue with severe lung damage as a result of decompression. It's a fact of how lethal a vacuum can be.

 

The only thing I take issue with is how poorly communicated the issue is to the player. I've ruptured my lungs in game before and thought it was a problem with my internals not properly engaging, when really it was just that I'd suffered traumatic internal injury.

 

"Realsims" does not equal fun or good gameplay. Like space being cold, in this case gameplay and fun faar trump dying horribly because you were in a low pressure area for half a second.

 

[Bone White]

I've not experienced the change, from what I can gather from this thread, your lungs collapse after a set amount of time, with only one warning, after being exposed to space, and you die of suffocation very shortly afterwards?

[Spacemanspark]

 

I've not experienced the change, from what I can gather from this thread, your lungs collapse after a set amount of time, with only one warning, after being exposed to space, and you die of suffocation very shortly afterwards?

Yes.

 

[Bone White]

 

All I can see needing here is more warnings.

 

Wintermote has good understanding of vacuum exposure here, but if we really were going for realism, the cause of lung collapse is the flaccid paralysis (muscles won't contract) brought on by ebullism (bubbles in bodily fluid, aka decompression sickness). Humans fall unconscious in roughly 15 seconds of space exposure from what little evidence we have of this occurring.

 

Be glad we're not implementing realism here.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

All I can see needing here is more warnings.

 

Wintermote has good understanding of vacuum exposure here, but if we really were going for realism, the cause of lung collapse is the flaccid paralysis (muscles won't contract) brought on by ebullism (bubbles in bodily fluid, aka decompression sickness). Humans fall unconscious in roughly 15 seconds of space exposure from what little evidence we have of this occurring.

 

Be glad we're not implementing realism here.

It's still not any great for anyone who ends up getting it, regardless. I don't even know if the time you're given is enough to get past the first few steps of surgery (If you're even near medbay.) before falling over dead.

 

[Wintermote]

 

"Realsims" does not equal fun or good gameplay. Like space being cold, in this case gameplay and fun faar trump dying horribly because you were in a low pressure area for half a second.

I don't, frankly, see any gameplay issues at all here.

 

What? Do you want space to be a hugbox that gently caresses you when you go sailing through it?

 

You are on a space station in a lethal environment. It's one of the defining features of the gameplay environment and it should remain lethal. Instead of nerfing space to be friendlier to people, give them tools to deal with the environment.

 

At some point you have to ask whether or not you even want a challenge in this game.

One of the reasons I enjoy and play ss13 is specifically because you can have stupid random and sudden deaths from being careless.

 

You KNOW space is lethal to you.

You should not be able to throw on internals and go traipsing around in space, and moving away from making space cold, to simulating the actual effects of a vacuum only makes the game more interesting.

 

This gamist philosophy is why we get dumbed down simplistic and shallow shit in videogames today. I hate it, I don't want something simplistic, shallow and easy. I want complicated, chaotic, hard and interesting.

 

My issues with this new lung code extend only as far as the player not being aware of what is happening to them and why - and no further. More lethal environments are a good thing and space in ss13 has been far too kind to players for far too long.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

First off: The "old" lung system you're thinking of was tied to the "hostile environments" rebalance; it was almost impossible to get a collapsed lung under this scenario. The current system we have is the one that Paradise has ran on from day 1 until the "hostile environments" got slotted in for about half a month to a month.

 

Getting it is largely RNG based on being in a vacuum---the longer you're in it without internals, the more chance you'll have of getting it.

 

Once you do get it, you start gasping and feeling a "sharp pain in your chest"

 

Dying from it is a case of bad luck--when the gasping procs, it gives losebreathe...only um...well, sometimes you keep on rolling for successes and die (been there, done that).

 

whille I will agree with FJ that more and more realism isn't always more fun, there do need to be legitimate downsides to things; if there weren't burst lungs, you''d have dopes hopping up on dexalin/dexalin plus and no oxygen tanks running around without consequence in space--while this mechanic can be annoying in some cases, from my experience, MOST of the time, most ruptured lungs I see are from people forgetting to equip their internals when going into a depressurized environment (ie: miners/engineers going through an airlock and forgetting).

 

I do generally agree though that space is way too weak, at the moment; there's a few issue with suits reducing pressure too much and space not being cold is a big problem--yes, I know, it's not realistic, but it actually makes people care about not going out into space without a suit because their face will literally freeze off from the cold (plus super slow movement speed).

 

[johannhawk]

 

i dont want to get the station done in by eva geared greyshirts but could we add some ´´free´´ space suits somewhere on the station or maintenance

 

edit: new ghetto spacesuits/emergency space suits

 

another edit: vending machine that keeps track of who has taken space suits from it and where the space suit is

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

Getting it is largely RNG based on being in a vacuum---the longer you're in it without internals, the more chance you'll have of getting it..

I also somehow managed to burst my lung without being in any depressurized/ non oxygen areas.

 

[PJB3005]

what wintermote said, I find the simplicity stupid too, making space more hazardous is a good thing, SS13 STILL doesn't feel like a space station, AT ALL, games like dead space do catch that feeling, and guess why? SPACE ISN'T A FUCKING VACATION RESORT, ESPECIALLY NOT ON THE SCALE SS13 IS SUPPOSED TO BE.

[Rivers]

I think the only real "balance" there needs to be is that you're aware your lungs have exploded into a useless sack of discombobulated membranes. Something like "YOU FEEL LIKE YOUR CHEST IS ON FIRE" or "YOU WHEEZE FOR AIR BUT RECEIVE NOTHING". I'm thinking something in a dashing tone of red and as large as the honk mech's HONK should suffice.

[Fj45]

 

"Realsims" does not equal fun or good gameplay. Like space being cold, in this case gameplay and fun faar trump dying horribly because you were in a low pressure area for half a second.

I don't, frankly, see any gameplay issues at all here.

 

What? Do you want space to be a hugbox that gently caresses you when you go sailing through it?

 

You are on a space station in a lethal environment. It's one of the defining features of the gameplay environment and it should remain lethal. Instead of nerfing space to be friendlier to people, give them tools to deal with the environment.

 

At some point you have to ask whether or not you even want a challenge in this game.

One of the reasons I enjoy and play ss13 is specifically because you can have stupid random and sudden deaths from being careless.

 

You KNOW space is lethal to you.

You should not be able to throw on internals and go traipsing around in space, and moving away from making space cold, to simulating the actual effects of a vacuum only makes the game more interesting.

 

This gamist philosophy is why we get dumbed down simplistic and shallow shit in videogames today. I hate it, I don't want something simplistic, shallow and easy. I want complicated, chaotic, hard and interesting.

 

My issues with this new lung code extend only as far as the player not being aware of what is happening to them and why - and no further. More lethal environments are a good thing and space in ss13 has been far too kind to players for far too long.

 

No, I am not saying dumb down the game and make it a hugbox! Space should be pretty dammned leathal but having it so that you get exposed to a vacuum for half a second kill you utterly dead five minutes later is not fun or good game design! Space should be cold! Damned cold! Cold enough that hull breached rooms freeze and the floor turns to ice! But there should still be that little bit of being able to escape! You want hardcore space? Why the hell not give it explosive decompression and make anyone caught in that get torn apart! That would be realistic!

 

I also hate dumbed down games but sometimes making shit harder or more complex for the sake of it is just not good game design!

 

[Rivers]

 

-snip-

 

No, I am not saying dumb down the game and make it a hugbox! Space should be pretty dammned leathal but having it so that you get exposed to a vacuum for half a second kill you utterly dead five minutes later is not fun or good game design! Space should be cold! Damned cold! Cold enough that hull breached rooms freeze and the floor turns to ice! But there should still be that little bit of being able to escape! You want hardcore space? Why the hell not give it explosive decompression and make anyone caught in that get torn apart! That would be realistic!

 

I also hate dumbed down games but sometimes making shit harder or more complex for the sake of it is just not good game design!

 

I would like to mention that five minutes is enough time for a proper med staff cart you off and to fix you up. I think you just NEED TO KNOW THAT YOU'RE ACTUALLY INJURED. The main problem I see when I'm in med is that people come in injured and we have no clue what's going on. If they knew they had a ruptured lung, we would be able to save them, easily.

 

Even though we have those fancy-pants body scanner, it saves precious time to just slap a person on the table and fix their internal damage.

 

[Regen]

 

"Realsims" does not equal fun or good gameplay. Like space being cold, in this case gameplay and fun faar trump dying horribly because you were in a low pressure area for half a second.

I don't, frankly, see any gameplay issues at all here.

 

What? Do you want space to be a hugbox that gently caresses you when you go sailing through it?

 

You are on a space station in a lethal environment. It's one of the defining features of the gameplay environment and it should remain lethal. Instead of nerfing space to be friendlier to people, give them tools to deal with the environment.

 

At some point you have to ask whether or not you even want a challenge in this game.

One of the reasons I enjoy and play ss13 is specifically because you can have stupid random and sudden deaths from being careless.

 

You KNOW space is lethal to you.

You should not be able to throw on internals and go traipsing around in space, and moving away from making space cold, to simulating the actual effects of a vacuum only makes the game more interesting.

 

This gamist philosophy is why we get dumbed down simplistic and shallow shit in videogames today. I hate it, I don't want something simplistic, shallow and easy. I want complicated, chaotic, hard and interesting.

 

My issues with this new lung code extend only as far as the player not being aware of what is happening to them and why - and no further. More lethal environments are a good thing and space in ss13 has been far too kind to players for far too long.

 

I agree with this, I don't love SS13 because of how easy it is.

 

Space would in reality would kill you within minutes, you'd have little to no chance of survival once exposed to it, thats realism.

I know that realism isn't always fun, but we need to find an in between point of !!FUN!! and what is actually extremely lethal.

Right now I think space is way to friendly, seeing people EVA without protective gear for 30 seconds before they just run back inside to eat a pill and trundle on is just aggravating. I want SS13 to be a game where your actions have real consequences, such as exposure to a non pressure environment.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

This gamist philosophy is why we get dumbed down simplistic and shallow shit in videogames today. I hate it, I don't want something simplistic, shallow and easy. I want complicated, chaotic, hard and interesting.

^this

 

My issues with this new lung code extend only as far as the player not being aware of what is happening to them and why - and no further. More lethal environments are a good thing and space in ss13 has been far too kind to players for far too long.

and ^this

 

The game should complicated and somewhat realistic. Obviously "Rule of Cool" should apply, there is good realism like space beeing dangerous and bad realism like making people brush their teeth and all the other boring stuff we have to do in RL. Most modern games are flat and boring and lacking mechanics and features.

 

I think makeing space more lethal is usually a good thing, but the game does generally a very poor job conveying the actual status of the character to the player. Especially since the health bar is actually just a pain meter. It should be better indicated where the pain comes from, what parts of my body maybe mutated and so on.

 

The occasional messages try to convey a certain feeling to the player but the wording is sometimes missleading and does not make the player realise the urgency of what going on.

 

Something like: "The pain in my chest is killing me, I can barely breathe anymore" would do a much better job as "you feel a sharp pain in your chest".

 

Edit: And it is really wierd that you have to scroll up in chat to find out which part of your body mutated, this totally breaks your immersion, because a character would know that, he could feel it.

 

[FalseIncarnate]

 

I think makeing space more lethal is usually a good thing, but the game does generally a very poor job conveying the actual status of the character to the player. Especially since the health bar is actually just a pain meter. It should be better indicated where the pain comes from, what parts of my body maybe mutated and so on.

 

The occasional messages try to convey a certain feeling to the player but the wording is sometimes missleading and does not make the player realise the urgency of what going on.

 

Something like: "The pain in my chest is killing me, I can barely breathe anymore" would do a much better job as "you feel a sharp pain in your chest".

 

Edit: And it is really wierd that you have to scroll up in chat to find out which part of your body mutated, this totally breaks your immersion, because a character would know that, he could feel it.

 

I agree that the messages can be vague and easily overlooked in a flood of chat messages. However, assuming you have at least 1 working arm and hand, you can click yourself with Help intent to "examine self" (this mostly gets used by IPCs to find damage) which will tell you things like "Left arm is bleeding" or "Groin is oddly shaped."

 

This obviously isn't a fix-all solution, as you can't touch your chest and instantly know "Hey, my lung is ruptured and my liver is slightly bruised." One problem with internal injuries are that they DO share the "You feel a sharp pain in your chest!" message, which obviously could lead to confusion and thus unnecessary death.

 

Code-wise, I don't think it would be hard to add in reoccurring messages for a ruptured lung. The problem is some people get lucky and are able to tough out a ruptured lung for a bit longer than others due to the probability checks not passing every time, as Fox pointed out.

 

As for lungs rupturing in decompression in the first place, I say the feature should stay. It gives the sense of danger that entering a vacuum unprotected should have, and thus adds urgency for atmos and engineering to fix breaches and re-pressurize afflicted areas. If you really dislike ruptured lungs, unlock IPCs or Slimepeople, who don't breathe and thus are immune to the effects of ruptured lungs.