Wintermote Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 (edited) Somewhere along the line, intercoms received a nerf and presently have only a 3-tile range from their original 7 or 8 tile range. A patch or two ago the AI lipreading was also nerfed and the AI no longer has this. I am fine with one of these nerfs, but not both of these nerfs, and my personal preference would be to have the proper intercom range back - especially considering much of the map is designed around 7-8 tile intercom coverage. During low-pop or extended rounds, literally the only interesting thing to do as the AI is listen to people's private conversations. Actually, even during regular rounds there's not much else to do except listen to people. Players have the option already of disabling intercoms, whispering, writing on paper, or going into areas the AI cannot see, in order to have clandestine conversations. Traitors can also grab gear that tells them if they're being watched by the AI, and can grab equipment that even allows them to listen to the AI binary channel. The options to avoid the AI "supercop" are plentiful. The issue isn't that the AI can hear private conversations, it's that nobody takes any actual precautions to prevent it when they are traitoring. Please return the intercoms back to their original settings so that I can go back to amusing myself with whatever random RP is going on around the station, instead of being nothing more than a glorified door-opener and 'supercop'. Edited December 2, 2014 by Guest Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheakhan Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 I concur. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-15769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostEnzeru Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 Thirdedededed! Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-15773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 Yeah, intercoms are a little pointless without any range. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-15774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox McCloud Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 Intercomms currently have a range of 2; it's been this way since January of 2013--well before Paradise was even a thought; it has never been 7 on Paradise--ever and has always been 2 since day 1; even prior to January of 2013, they had a 4 tile range. This wasn't just done for game balance reasons--intercomms were changed/recoded somewhere along the way, and the range of 2 wasn't just to "nerf" intercomms but to keep the cost of the proc down. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-15780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wintermote Posted December 3, 2014 Author Posted December 3, 2014 It's a change which is a serious detriment to AI players. I'm not familiar with the exact status of when things were changed or not on Paradise, but I am familiar with how it worked on both baycode and /tg/station code, as I experimented with both regarding this exact thing. (Specifically testing intercom ranges while I was mapping for /tg/station and sigurd in particular and designing rooms around it) AI's are basically forgotten and ignored by the crew, though you might be looking at people having a conversation they will never know you're there until you chime in, and without the ability to hear their conversation, you can never really chime in. This is a serious detriment to the AI's ability to actually engage in RP with other people - most don't even acknowledge its existence beyond having it open doors and nothing of any RP interest is ever spoken over radio. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-15868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheakhan Posted December 3, 2014 Posted December 3, 2014 I beg to differ, I've seen and participated in plenty of great AI RP over the radio.. That being said, adding range to the station intercom would still be really nice. I could've sworn the range was greater on them previously, as I've definitely noted an inability to hear through them at distances past a few tiles. If the AI can't lip-read it needs ears, NT wouldn't spend a bazillion space-bucks on a fancy AI that couldn't even properly monitor it's crew. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-15871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted December 3, 2014 Posted December 3, 2014 I also have great RP with the AI. *Buck continues to swear over the radio* Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-15874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldrin-Kanthos Posted December 3, 2014 Posted December 3, 2014 I also have great RP with the AI. *Buck continues to swear over the radio* *Axe Axe Axe Axe Axe, swear, Axe* Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-15876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox McCloud Posted December 3, 2014 Posted December 3, 2014 I'm not familiar with the exact status of when things were changed or not on Paradise, but I am familiar with how it worked on both baycode and /tg/station code, as I experimented with both regarding this exact thing. (Specifically testing intercom ranges while I was mapping for /tg/station and sigurd in particular and designing rooms around it) While intercom placement may be differnet between codebases, I can demonstrate, objectively, that the intercomm range has not been 7-8 at any point in time on Paradise, TG, or even Bay; the current value of 2 is what has been used and utilized on all major codebases (well, open source anyway) since January of 2013---and again, this value wasn't just selected for game balance reasons, but was to also cut down on cost to the server and CPU cycles. I know it sounds like I'm repeating myself, but this is a case of "way its always been". Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-15894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wintermote Posted December 10, 2014 Author Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) Fox, you can't honestly tell me this is the way it's always been when I've been playing over three years with a 7-8 tile range and had to go out of my way to learn about it for mapping on /tg/-station At most it's the way it's always been on paradise - but even that doesn't seem right to me, because Sigurd has been using Paradise's codebase for awhile and the problem did not manifest itself there. This is a change that seriously affects how fun AI is to play, and now I understand why the AI lipreading was added - because the intercoms everywhere else were nerfed to hell. Why even bother with giving the intercoms any range at all? 2-3 tiles is worthless. AI lipreading or intercoms that can actually overhear a room are a necessity and you've actually made AI more supercop with the change than without by removing other options the AI has with interacting and playing with people. The only reason to play AI now is to literally be supercop, and your stated goal was to make the AI less of a supercop. Or to put this another way: My favourite job in ss13 has been, for years, to play AI - and this one change is actually convincing me not to bother with it anymore; it's not fun except when you're locking down revs and traitors. You've removed one of the only thing the AI could do to pass the time and roleplay. Edited December 10, 2014 by Guest Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-16446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkvA Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 I double-checked it, and Fox is right. The "canhear_range" variable has been the same on our server, /tg/ and Baystation12 for two years now. It's set at 2, so it can hear up to two tiles away. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-16448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wintermote Posted December 10, 2014 Author Posted December 10, 2014 That can't be right - it flies in the face of personal experience for the entire time I've been playing on /tg/. Can you link me to the code? I need to compile and test this. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-16449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkvA Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Here. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-16450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wintermote Posted December 10, 2014 Author Posted December 10, 2014 Thanks. This states the code change was made aug 8th of this year - not two years ago. So I'm not going crazy and /tg/station did have 7-8 tile range when I played there. I'm going to continue with the suggestion that the range be reinstated. I'm not the only player in favour of it, and after speaking with a few others who've played with the range set to a greater distance, they thought it was dumb that it'd be reduced - even here on the forums there seems to be some sentiment for returning it. Everything that happens in the game costs CPU resources, given the importance of AI's being able to listen to conversations through intercoms and the nerfing of the AI's lipreading ability (which it seems to me, was added to offset the problem with the AI no longer being able to hear through intercoms), as well as the player support regarding having it back, and the fact that several servers operated just fine with it the way it was before, I think we should be looking at the tradeoff more closely. Essentially, I don't think the increased range consumes enough resources to warrant its removal from the game for that reason. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-16457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkvA Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 It doesn't. If you go into the history of the file, you'll see it has remained untouched. The date on top doesn't mean that variable has changed. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-16463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wintermote Posted December 10, 2014 Author Posted December 10, 2014 I just, can't see it being like that, though. I asked around with a few other people, and everyone remembers intercoms having a 5+ tile range. Literally nobody remembers it having 2-tile range. And I played enough on /tg/ as an AI - I used to use intercom spying all over the place. There is no way that intercoms 'have always been this way' because my personal experience with it - and what other people remember - flies in direct contravention with it. Is there some other variable that might've been at work, which was simply bugfixed recently? Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-16474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plotron Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Supercopping as AI is as easy if not even easier as before. See some strange people assembling in Medbay? Call the cops. Shady activity in cargo? Call the HoP to check it. Telescience fuckups? Use the damned holopad and question the telescientist! When in doubt, bolt him in. Frankly, holopads are superior to intercoms. You're spotted immediately, yes, and nobody likes such invasion of privacy - and that's why supercop AI has never been more condom. In exchange you're getting more false alarms (and keep security in constant high alert, too), but if you're being proactive enough, crime prevention and succesful antag hunting can be easily accomplished. The new toys like robot control (oh hello, you filthy vandal, here's my Beepsky for you!) and med/sec HUDs more than make up for the loss of lip-reading. And I forgot to mention the new examine option. Murder or SSD? Nah, just SSD. *click* Voila, medical status changed to SSD. All in all, I believe we've got some unforeseen consequences. These changes actually made a supercop AI even more feasible to play, as described by Wintermote. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-16482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 I would also swear that intercoms used to have a higher range. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-16510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacemanspark Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Pretty sure /tg/ has a higher range at the moment, could be wrong on this (Don't play there much anymore.). Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-16520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Streaky Haddock Posted December 11, 2014 Posted December 11, 2014 I'm also certain it was a higher range one, having played on goon and /tg/ years ago. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-16541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkvA Posted December 11, 2014 Posted December 11, 2014 I'll increase it to five tiles then. Anything beyond that is a bit too much though if you ask me. One intercom shouldn't pick up voices from the other side of the room. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-16547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted December 11, 2014 Posted December 11, 2014 That seems fine mate, thanks! Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-16573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox McCloud Posted December 11, 2014 Posted December 11, 2014 Willing to give this a shot for a week or two, but I'd rather not upset the balance of a value that's been this way for literally 2 years now--especially considering this is a gigantic nerf to stealing headsets and effectively allows the AI to hear the entirety to the station again (minus maint). Edit: Because of how mapping works, a range of two is actually a range of three because the intercomm will invariably and always be on the tile below the wall its placed on, giving it a pseudo-range of 3. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-16577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceTimeNow Posted December 12, 2014 Posted December 12, 2014 Willing to give this a shot for a week or two, but I'd rather not upset the balance of a value that's been this way for literally 2 years now--especially considering this is a gigantic nerf to stealing headsets and effectively allows the AI to hear the entirety to the station again (minus maint). I would have something to add that could restore that balance, it's actually a thing that bothered me for quite a while. A intercom has this interessting sprite with buttons and lights and stuff. I think this lights should totally display the settings of the microphone and speakers. So a skilled player could see the intercom state from just looking at the sprite. It needs to be small subtle change to the sprite that you only notice if you are consciously looking for it. Like the green light been shifted a few pixels to the right when the microphone is on. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/2672-return-intercoms-to-their-7-8-tile-range/#findComment-16605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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