Ranged Stun Rework

[Fox McCloud]

 

This patch/rework is not of my original creation/thought/design; it was designed by Paprka, who often codes for TG--his Github profile can be found here: https://github.com/paprka If you see him around be sure to give him a thumbs up and some thanks!

 

A patch was recently published which reworks the nature of ranged stuns---let me make it clear, melee based stuns are completely unchanged; the stun baton is still an instantaneous stun that will not miss.

 

What's Changed for Ranged Stuns?

 

First off, a number of ranged stuns now have a distance limitation on them--when a projectile hits its maximum range it will fizzle and disappear

-Taser shots have a range of 7

-Crossbow shots have a range of 10

-Ninja Stars have a range of 7

-40mm grenade launchers now have a range of 7

 

Secondly, this stun update largely utilized the new Stamina damage type; I'll copy-paste an explanation I've given on it before:

 

 

An explanation of how stamina works:

 

-Stamina damage is tracked from 0 to 100

-Taking stamina damage will make you appear to be hurt, even though you're not taking any real damage

-Stamina damage slows you down based on the same formula as if you had taken actual damage

-Upon taking 100 stamina damage MINUS how much real damage you've already taken, you will collapse on the floor for 5 seconds; this means that if someone has 50 tox/brute/burn/oxy/clone damage, they can only take 50 stamina damage before collapsing, while someone who is at 0 real damage will have to take a full 100 stamina damage before collapsing.

-Effectiveness is IMPOSSIBLE to reduce with painkillers (load up on painkillers all you want, you're still going to get slowed and still going to get stunned)

-Examining yourself will reveal if you're under the effects of Staminaloss (so will a health analyzer)

 

While this may sound identical to HalLoss--it's not, and I'll explain below why I believe it solves a lot of HalLoss's issues:

 

-HalLoss is also tracked from 0 to 100

-upon hitting 100 HalLoss, you will be knocked unconscious for 10 seconds

-HalLoss is a part of a mob's total health, therefore it causes slowdown because it lowers your effective health

-HalLoss also causes a huge indepedent slow; it's effectively double-proccing a slow--once from your total health being lowered and again just from being HalLoss

-HalLoss, by virtue of causes pain also triggers an additional movement slow by inducing the mob into shock which (not surprisingly) slows movement even more and can (in very rare cases) lead to an additional paralysis time from the shock itself.

-The end result is a literal triple-bundle of slows all being applied at once. This means that taking even very little HalLoss means you're effectively ground to an absolute halt; additionally, even after the unconscious state wears off, you can barely move because of how HalLoss value have to decrease---not to mention you have to wait for shock to wear off (and the latter, in particular takes a very long time). In an actual scenario, this means that if an officer hits you with a taser even once, then keeps on missing (or runs out of ammo), you're left in a state of incredible weakness for a good 30-60 seconds

-Painkillers greatly reduce and even completely eliminate the effectiveness of HalLoss--no matter how much painkillers are nerfed, you will always---always be able to abuse them against paincrit.

 

Functionally, both accomplish similar things, but I feel stamina accomplishes it better and doesn't have the abusiveness of triple-stacked slows behind it, plus it lacks the inherent weakness of HalLoss as well.

 

How does this factor in?

 

The "disabler" projectile that was previously used by the Disabler gun is now a beam (meaning it will pass through glass); it deals 36 Stamina damage per hit

 

This disabler beam will be utilized on a number of weapons, namely the new Advanced Taser and Energy Gun.

 

Advanced Taser? This is a weapon that replaces the regular taser; it has two modes; stun and disable. Stun is your typical mode just like it was before; it fires a projectile that, if it hits, will instantly stun the person for 5 seconds. The other mode is disable, which will fire a disabler beam that will take 3 hits (or less if they have higher damage) to stun someone. You'll get 5 taser shots or 10 disabler shots (or a combo of the two). Again, keep in mind that taser projectiles fizzle after 7 tiles, effectively meaning that the taser is almost completely worthless if you're chasing someone; for closer ranged arrests, it's as effective as its always been, but for long range or chases? You're going to have to rely on the disabler to take someone down. In conjunction with these changes, Advanced Tasers will be significantly harder to come by; there's only 5 of them on the map; 3 of them are in the armory, one is in the Warden's Locker, and one is in the HoS's locker. How can an officer get a hold of an advanced taser then? Simple; Officers and Warden (and customs+sec pod pilot) all spawn in with one in their suit storage slot; this will strongly curb the amount of tasers in play and force officers to consider relying on their disable beams more than their instant-stun projectiles.

 

Energy Guns

 

Energy Gun

These no longer fire electrodes/taser shots; they fire a disabler beam or a lethal laser; 10 laser shots or 20 disabler shots

 

Advanced Energy Gun

This is unchanged and will fire electrodes/taser shots and lethal lasers as it is a high end R&D item.

 

Pulse Rifle

Unchanged; it's meant to be broken and overpowered as hell---duh.

 

Overall this prevents insta-win scenarios by the semi-common energy gun; you can't just tase then laser someone to death; you're going to have to shoot them with a disabler a few times to knock them out, reducing both its lethal potential usage against a lone target and dramatically reducing its combat effectiveness.

 

Bullets

 

Most bullets now deal stamina damage in addition to their regular damage instead of just out and out stunning; Detective's revolver will stun in two shots and the C20r will also stun in two shots; the Barkeep's shotgun will now require three shots to bring someone down. Stunslugs, however, will remain an instantaneous stun, though it will be accomplished by utilizing stamina damage in conjunction with regular damage as opposed to just directly weakening your target.

 

In either case, I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but that's largely the ranged stun rework.

 

[Wintermote]

 

This is essentially "We're keeping instastuns, even though the community voted that they didn't want them, and then we're also letting them shoot through windows"

 

What was even the point of a poll if you weren't going to listen to the community to begin with?

 

The majority of people did not want instastuns. They wanted the old 2-3 shot tasers back. This 'rework' is nothing more than a way of saying you did something without actually doing what people had wanted. I consider it a slap in the face to the community; essentially: "Fuck you, we don't care what you want."

 

[FalseIncarnate]

 

As was explained on the server in the OOC chat regarding this subject, I would like to clarify a misconception.

 

The electrode still is present, and does NOT pass through windows. It has a limited range, and will fizzle out harmlessly upon reaching it's maximum range. It can also still be dodged, but is an instant stun if it manages to hit you before reaching max distance.

 

The disabler beam is also still present, and does pass through windows like a normal laser. It deals stamina damage (pain), so it requires a couple hits to drop someone, just like the taser BEFORE the instant-stun rework.

 

Tasers have been completely replaced by the new Advanced Taser, which has 2 modes. The first mode fires electrodes like the previous taser. The second mode fires the disabler beams. It can fire twice as many disabler beams as it can fire electrodes for a given charge, and can be toggled just like an energy gun to switch between it's two firing modes. It is still a completely non-lethal, non-harming weapon.

 

The misconception seems to be that the new taser combines the two modes, which it does not. Just like an energy gun has stun and kill settings, the Advanced Taser has electrode and disabler beam settings. Only the electrode mode is an instant stun, and utilizes electrodes as explained above. Only the disabler beam mode can pass through windows, and utilizes the disabler beams as described above.

 

The energy gun had it's stun setting changed to use the disabler beam instead of the electrode as well. Advanced energy guns shoot the electrode. These are still subject to the same abilities and disadvantages as those fired from the Advanced Taser.

 

TL;DR: Electrodes are instant stun, max 7 range before fizzling out harmlessly, and are blocked by windows. Disabler beams are stamina (not insta-stun) based, can pass through windows, and have a longer range. The advanced taser switches between the two, not combines them.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

I think it's an interessting idea and it could play out well, but i would go further and say taser shots should have an even shorter range. 7 tiles is still amost across the screen and really only matters if someone runs. I this a insta stun should be limited to 4 tiles max.

[Fox McCloud]

 

False is absolutely correct in everything he has stated. I'd also like to add that this is a completely new system and should be considered "alpha" state--as such, it will be subject to changes in the upcoming days/weeks--electrode range may be going down further, electrode cost may be increased, disabler shots may be cheaper---but we do have the ability to granularly control each of these stats, quite easily now (before, we didn't). This is a step back from the instant stun system we had, but is actively trying to avoid some of the problems brought up by the previous HalLoss/paincrit system.

 

I think it's an interessting idea and it could play out well, but i would go further and say taser shots should have an even shorter range. 7 tiles is still amost across the screen and really only matters if someone runs. I this a insta stun should be limited to 4 tiles max.

 

This very well may happen, and my knee-jerk reaction is that tasers are probably going to need nerfed a bit and disablers are going to likely need buffed a bit. We'll have to see how this plays out; a lot of stuff changed in relatively short order (even when we had Pain/HalLoss, for example, Nukies still had instant-stun bullets), and we'll have to see how all the pieces fit together and play off against each other first. I will say this though, someone who's running around like a maniac is a lot harder to take down with a taser now--the range of 7 seems like a lot, but when you factor in that they're traveling away from you, that range isn't quite impressive. Again, I can't stress enough, that these numbers are subject to change and will be changing in the future.

 

[Wintermote]

 

The misconception seems to be that the new taser combines the two modes, which it does not. Just like an energy gun has stun and kill settings, the Advanced Taser has electrode and disabler beam settings.

 

No. There is no "misconception". I am not "failing to understand how it works."

 

It's a taser that can shoot through windows and can instastun. That it does this in different modes is entirely immaterial to the fact that it still instastuns and It is not what people wanted. Nobody asked for a taser that could shoot through windows or had limited range. The old taser was fine, you are trying to "fix" something that isn't broken. People wanted a revision to 2-3 shot tasers, because it made getting shot by them less frustrating.

 

I don't care that tasers can or cannot shoot through windows, I care that the community was completely ignored and this pet code project implemented whether we wanted it or not.

 

Again, why did we even have a vote on this code if coders were just going to ignore us when it didn't go their way?

 

[Midaychi]

 

As said previously, only the 7 tile range *non windowpassing* taser can insta stun, and the one that has laser range and can pass through windows needs to hit the target 3-4 times to reduce their stamina to 0.

 

Each hit with a disabler takes about 33% stamina.

 

This commit is almost directly ported from tg, and exists as part of their efforts to deal with their obligatorily powergaming community, and their different game flow. (Tg is a bit smoother and less laggy due to their garbage collector and LINDA, and basically everyone is expected to know every job in detail.)

 

The commit also reduces the availability of these stunning weapons and moves the original tasers to the armoury, and that change was specifically to reduce the amount of 'free stuns' available to powergamers who took advantage of their easy to get availability.

 

Community snafu or not, this change was intended for an entirely different community.

 

[Rumiluntti]

Did we not vote to get rid of these shitty instastuns?

[Wintermote]

 

Did we not vote to get rid of these shitty instastuns?

We did; it's simply being ignored.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

Despite this coming from /tg/ yet again... i'm pretty fine with this.

Insta stuns are still here, but only good for close range assault. Which is fine and makes more sense.

 

[Midaychi]

 

What if normal tasers worked like payday2 instead of insta stun?

 

Ie; has a charge up with a noise, semi short range, sticks you in place spasming and firing off whatever you have in your hands in the direction you're facing until your stamina gives out and you fall over? DIsrupting the person doing the tasing breaks the effect?

 

Then you could either use those or disablers. Both with their advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Gibson1027]

 

I personally enjoy the stun redo. I have been around for all modes of stun mechanic and as someone who enjoys playing security based rolls and general nuke ops antaging it is quite enjoyable. A long while ago when we had the normal stun system with the fake damage and pain crit that just "i felt" was a poor excuse of a weapon. Now I know I am going to get yelled at fj45 for this but I enjoy mechanics that closely resemble real life mechanics of things when applicable. With this said having a tazer take THREE shots to knock someone down is absurd. Tazers are meant to cause electro-paralysis of all major muscle groups by sending a electrical current spazaming them. They are disabling weapons not rubber crowd control rounds. It is a plain and simple raw stopping power weapon with capacity to immobilize the assailant. Same thing goes with the disabler as it is a lazer version of xrep shotgun shells. Low power cycle load but can be shot over distance instead of falling off.

 

Now mechanic wise I feel it is a buff to security that was duly needed. In previous iterations of the tazer the method of slowing shot,baton/flash/pepper spray,cuff target was used. This caused what I like to call martial style take downs. They are not effective in combat scenarios and there is no REASON to have them. If you have weapons that require you to use multiple weapons to do the same task it is a flawed design. Sec needed a weapon that was limited in number to officers with a few extra available/order-capable, effective at its job of stopping power of single/multiple target engagements, and be able to have a large enough capacity magazine to withstand at least 1-1.5-2 encounters.The advanced taser system/disabler offers this in a clear and concise package. Combine this with all other security changes I would say efficiency has gone up around 15 percent since implementation. Sec are able to DO their job so YOU don't have to worry about: antag assault as much, random griefing/beatings from civilians, armed civilians, criminals walking in the hallway without being interrogated and sentence served. Also reported crimes compared to full arrests has gone up. It has SHOWN an improvement of security.

 

Another point that I would like to raise is against conveyed targets. there are three kinds of targets that sec officers face on duty: Antags, Crew, and NPC.

 

Antags face sec with upgraded armaments because they ARE ANTAGS. There was no fair fight against them with a standard issue taser. It did not have the stopping power to stop syndicate from eswording you, shooting you with revolver, nuke ops smg'ing you, or even changlings from eating you. It now gives an officer a fighting chance of surviving a combat scenario

 

Crew outnumber security by a vast amount. Average round we have around 50-70 people during peak hours. Say if we have minimal numbers of fifty; a eight man security team is outnumbered 6.25 compared to crew. If those are not bad odds then I do not know what to tell you.

 

NPCS require red alert armory to handle most encounters due to not following normal pain mechanics.

 

With that said one last tidbit that is more personal on this is the rp. I could understand having normal tazers that worked with pain mechanics if we had a community that valued rp more. In the current security situation rp'ing gets you killed. Or your gun stole, or a criminal beating you to death. I know it has happened over months and months of playing. If the antag refuses to value rp of a situation and jump to violence then the people supposed to do their job as officers will not show them any favors.

 

As a final note fox you did good on the implementation of an effective and useful security asset. Keep up the great work +1 for taser alpha.

 

[Fj45]

I still don't like batons being instant stun, they are the BEST melee weapons in the game.

[BadApple797]

 

I personally enjoy the stun redo. I have been around for all modes of stun mechanic and as someone who enjoys playing security based rolls and general nuke ops antaging it is quite enjoyable. A long while ago when we had the normal stun system with the fake damage and pain crit that just "i felt" was a poor excuse of a weapon. Now I know I am going to get yelled at fj45 for this but I enjoy mechanics that closely resemble real life mechanics of things when applicable. With this said having a tazer take THREE shots to knock someone down is absurd. Tazers are meant to cause electro-paralysis of all major muscle groups by sending a electrical current spazaming them.

 

 

Also in real life they fire two electrodes connected by wire to the gun, which needs to be reloaded after each shot and can be blocked if the....victim...is wearing some kind of protection: IE a combat hardsuit used by a terrorist organization. If we had ''Real life'' tasers sec would have a much harder time

 

Another point that I would like to raise is against conveyed targets. there are three kinds of targets that sec officers face on duty: Antags, Crew, and NPC.

 

Antags face sec with upgraded armaments because they ARE ANTAGS. There was no fair fight against them with a standard issue taser. It did not have the stopping power to stop syndicate from eswording you, shooting you with revolver, nuke ops smg'ing you, or even changlings from eating you. It now gives an officer a fighting chance of surviving a combat scenario

 

The hal-taser where perfectly fine for changelings and most traitors, and even so your average antag vs 1 single officer, the antag should probably win. As for nuke-ops: tasers SHOULD be useless against them, they are a fucking combat unit, rent-a-cop gear shouldn't be taking them down, the secure armoury gear should. Right now as an antag the first thing you wanna do is grab a taser and baton, due to them being considerably more useful than the weapons you can get, and don't waste any TC if you have those.

 

Crew outnumber security by a vast amount. Average round we have around 50-70 people during peak hours. Say if we have minimal numbers of fifty; a eight man security team is outnumbered 6.25 compared to crew. If those are not bad odds then I do not know what to tell you.

 

Typical Security mentality: Us vs the entire crew, have to arrest them all. If you find yourself fighting the entire crew, MAAAYYYYBBBEEE you're doing something wrong. If you aren't an arse many crew members will help you (help you cremate a changeling or the like, not help you arrest the clown because he called you a bad word)

 

 

 

Personally, I believe the hal-damage system was the best, of course ignoring the painkiller thing you could do (which has been nerfed and doesn't effect the new stam replacement) as it was easy enough to arrest unarmed people with, but really made all non-lethal weapons much less dangerous than lethal ones, and made using lethals on a target a legitimate tactical choice, it made people scream when you unwarranted tased them, and made more important to call and cancel red alert.

 

I am also not gunna believe for a second that security is too hard inherently, rather that most of its players are bad. Security barely use their radio channel at all most rounds, doesn't update records despite it being 3 clicks from the all powerful hudglasses and most HoS's make it their personal mission to alienate the crew and arrest people over petty crimes (like calling the hos a condom) while ignoring the bad ones (like the captain being murdered in xenobiology)

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

Also in real life they fire two electrodes connected by wire to the gun, which needs to be reloaded after each shot and can be blocked if the....victim...is wearing some kind of protection: IE a combat hardsuit used by a terrorist organization. If we had ''Real life'' tasers sec would have a much harder time

 

If you're aiming for realism---this is changing. Currently there are real life "stun slugs" that are fired out of specialized taser shotguns. These taser based slugs are completely self contained, meaning there is no need for wires and you can load a new shell into the chamber as easily as you could a regular shotgun. Given this is the year 2550ish, it's not unrealistic at all to imagine that taser technology has advanced to the point where regular tasers utilize a self-contained projectile as well (and even some current tasers have 3 shots) . That said, "ICly" though, tasers are energy based weapons--so it's a bit of hand-wavery--just like laser guns are.

 

[Gibson1027]

 

Also in real life they fire two electrodes connected by wire to the gun, which needs to be reloaded after each shot and can be blocked if the....victim...is wearing some kind of protection: IE a combat hardsuit used by a terrorist organization. If we had ''Real life'' tasers sec would have a much harder time

 

Considering we are a couple hundred years in the future and xrep shotgun rounds made for riot control (since 2011 I believe) have internal electrical currents running via shell and attach to spot I think having rounds weather they be loadable,lazer based, or whatever is a likelihood.

 

Not particularly. If we had real life tasers versus most organisms tazers would win hands down. Most tazer effects can last from one to two minuets of inability to use gross motor skills and around thirty minuets for all effects to wear off; This being either on shot or touch. Even against a nuke ops who have partial suits made of both metal covering and reinforced fabrics would still be affected depending on cover cloth thickness The reason for this is as of mid 2000 taser began making curved penetrating barbs for their tasers. This allows heavy based military fabric to be pierced unless clothing is made to be specifically taser resistant. (carbon taping or a chemically treat polyester usually does this. As long as the material can basically discharge the current it will work. It has to be in strips)

 

 

The hal-taser where perfectly fine for changelings and most traitors, and even so your average antag vs 1 single officer, the antag should probably win. As for nuke-ops: tasers SHOULD be useless against them, they are a fucking combat unit, rent-a-cop gear shouldn't be taking them down, the secure armoury gear should. Right now as an antag the first thing you wanna do is grab a taser and baton, due to them being considerably more useful than the weapons you can get, and don't waste any TC if you have those.

 

Here I have a small disagreement. In all honesty there are around 4 levels of security available for the station at any given time. We have standard issue sec officers, Emergency response team, and Death Squad. Now standard sec officers are primary and secondary lines of defense. These men, from having red alert armory, can be assumed to have up to equivalency of basic military force training. Due to the fact we have proper mentality of handling space law, sop, armor, riot gear, lethal laser rounds, and the likes these men make up the force of primary officers and army core of the station. Upon calling ert you have accessed tertiary level defenses and requested marine aid. Finally DS is Quaternary level aid when all else has failed(THINK seal team 6). With this said sec makes up for half of the levels of security measures within the game. They need to have capabilities other than being chewed up and spit out by antagonists. With this said, if a officer is surprised then I understand. If it is a even ground on combat engagement, security should have equal footing of winning.

 

Typical Security mentality: Us vs the entire crew, have to arrest them all. If you find yourself fighting the entire crew, MAAAYYYYBBBEEE you're doing something wrong. If you aren't an arse many crew members will help you (help you cremate a changeling or the like, not help you arrest the clown because he called you a bad word)

 

This is a bit rude is it not? Considering that we have two entire game types devoted to crew versus command and sec (objective,revolution), I feel this is a slanted comment. I understand you are not acclimated to security, but please keep this civil. This is a discussion and forum for an issue, not a slandering ground. With that said, from those of us who enjoy security and learning the context of space law, standard operating procedure, we take a look at all aspects of our job. I hate to say it but non antag crew are the number one incarceration. This is not because "sec is trying to brig us all" it is because crew break space law more so than any other group. I understand that sec have bad connotation because there have been bad officers,wardens,hos's and every other position, but there are some of us who just enjoy it for the mechanics and laws of it. If you are referring to a instance, you or a friend were arrested, please refer to the paradise wiki and space law. There you can determine what you did was a breaking of space law or simple ignorance.

 

I am also not gunna believe for a second that security is too hard inherently, rather that most of its players are bad. Security barely use their radio channel at all most rounds, doesn't update records despite it being 3 clicks from the all powerful hudglasses and most HoS's make it their personal mission to alienate the crew and arrest people over petty crimes (like calling the hos a condom) while ignoring the bad ones (like the captain being murdered in xenobiology)

 

This is also a bit slanted yes? As previously stated, there are good crew of sec and bad. With this said if you are not reasonably acclimated with the system I would advise you to try your hand at security positions during a hectic round of nuke ops, revolutionaries, or changelings. It is a do or die situation and nine times out of ten you are called shitcurity or a condom even though you know they did something wrong. As simple observation of this, I played warden the other day with a gentleman who was incarcerated for (215) grand theft of a officers weapon - fifteen minuets to perma, beat him causing (104) battery -eight minuets, and finally (101) trespassing - three minuets. For first time bring in and complying I reduced the sentence to around twenty minuets. He committed suicide, and then reported me for extension of sentence. I will tell you doing your job as a security personnel is thankless. Any person who is a veteran sec player will tell you that.

 

Anyways enough discussion of topics you did good foxy, that is my last spiel (+1 still)

 

[Fj45]

Can we stop using "realsim" arguments and go off gameplay and balance? I shouldn't have to state why they are flawed.

[Fox McCloud]

 

Can we stop using "realsim" arguments and go off gameplay and balance? I shouldn't have to state why they are flawed.

 

Wasn't making that argument--merely demonstrating the nature of tasers if someone is going to make that argument.

 

[Fj45]

Oh yeah, talking to gib. Those shottie shells sound pretty interesting.

[Gibson1027]

 

Oh yeah, talking to gib. Those shottie shells sound pretty interesting.

 

A large majority of stuff is real. We have kevlar armor,guns, atmosphere,food,and such. Its just a natural progression to take real substantial things and make them into 2d space men.

 

anyways...I am a big gym and combat enthusiast and LOVE self defense stuff. If you got the time

 

 

Would love to see a combined combat and tazer implemented like riot police now have.

 

[BadApple797]

 

These men, from having red alert armory, can be assumed to have up to equivalency of basic military force training. Due to the fact we have proper mentality of handling space law, sop, armor, riot gear, lethal laser rounds, and the likes these men make up the force of primary officers and army core of the station.

 

 

I don't have a problem with sec officers being able to match the nukies with red alert gear, but they shouldn't be taking on heavily armed terrorists with tazers and stun batons, which they can, unless the nukie has has the forsight to use an

energy sword or shield, which they often don't

 

[Paprika]

 

Dis stun rework is clear open source theft.

 

Really though, at least credit me foxy.

 

[Spacemanspark]

Hello, Paprka.

[Fox McCloud]

 

Dis stun rework is clear open source theft.

 

Really though, at least credit me foxy.

 

Sure thing! I take no credit, at all for any of this as my original idea; it's just been a known thing that we've been importing features from /TG/ for quite a while now (a process my predecessor started more than a year ago). I do apologize if it came across that this was any of my own original work. Will definitely edit it to make it more clear.

 

In any event, good to see you on the forums!

 

[Wintermote]

 

Dis stun rework is clear open source theft.

 

Really though, at least credit me foxy.

paprika I hate these taser changes why u do this