Hardsuits overnerfed

[Wintermote]

 

 

+obj/item/clothing/head/helmet/redtaghelm

+ name = "red laser tag helmet"

+ desc = "They have chosen their own end."

+ icon_state = "redtaghelm"

+ flags = FPRINT|TABLEPASS|HEADCOVERSEYES

+ item_state = "redtaghelm"

+ armor = list(melee = 30, bullet = 10, laser = 20,energy = 10, bomb = 20, bio = 0, rad = 0)

+ // Offer about the same protection as a hardhat.

+ flags_inv = HIDEEARS|HIDEEYES

 

Here's the new armor values for a lasertag helmet.

 

 

+/obj/item/clothing/head/HoS

+ name = "head of security cap"

+ desc = "The robust standard-issue cap of the Head of Security. For showing the officers who's in charge."

+ icon_state = "hoscap"

+ flags = FPRINT | TABLEPASS

+ armor = list(melee = 80, bullet = 60, laser = 50, energy = 10, bomb = 25, bio = 10, rad = 0)

 

Here's an armoured hat.

 

 

//Forensics

/obj/item/clothing/suit/storage/forensics

name = "jacket"

desc = "A forensics technician jacket."

item_state = "det_suit"

body_parts_covered = UPPER_TORSO|LOWER_TORSO|ARMS

allowed = list(/obj/item/weapon/tank/emergency_oxygen, /obj/item/device/flashlight,/obj/item/weapon/gun/energy,/obj/item/weapon/gun/projectile,/obj/item/ammo_box,/obj/item/ammo_casing,/obj/item/weapon/melee/baton,/obj/item/weapon/handcuffs,/obj/item/device/detective_scanner,/obj/item/device/taperecorder)

armor = list(melee = 10, bullet = 10, laser = 15, energy = 10, bomb = 0, bio = 0, rad = 0)

 

A forensic technician's jacket.

 

Here's an engineering hardsuit:

 

armor = list(melee = 10, bullet = 5, laser = 10, energy = 5, bomb = 10, bio = 100, rad = 75)

 

 

I think there's something seriously wrong when a hardsuit that's designed around protecting someone from dangerous physical impacts provides less protection than a light jacket worn by a forensics technician.

 

Why were hardsuits even ultranerfed like this? I don't think anyone's seriously had any issues with them whatsoever. Now, not only do they slow you down twice as much as before, they also don't offer any actual protection. You may as well just wear regular spacesuits, of which there are basically none.

 

I don't understand the balance logic here whatsoever.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

They exist to provide basic protection EVA protection in addition to some light resistances to outside threats in addition to providing radiation and heat resistances. They're not meant to be something players get to run around in 24/7 to shrug off laser fire and melee damage. Engineers job is to repair the station; they're not security and don't deal with threats that constantly put them in danger. The hat, in the example you provided, is the Head of Security's hat--who has those armor values due being sec and the additional risks of his job; heads of staff are always compensated for the enhanced risks of their position in some way, shape, or form. With the exception of the lasertag helmets, the items you listed are all security related (the forensic technician jacket is just a really crappy version of detective's armored jacket).

 

Oh, almost forgot Rig helmets also provided flash immunity

 

And yes, I realize you can take damage from slamming into a wall, but that's not what the hardsuit is for; that's what magboots are for as they take damage from slamming from 100 to 0, by virtue of eliminating getting slammed against the the wall to begin with.

 

It's still generally more robust than most non-security armor on the station in addition to being pressure and flash immune; I'm pretty sure the only thing that's non-sec that has decent armor values outside of this is the bomb suit (which is non spaceworthy and offers no flash protection+still slows you down) and I think the mining rig.

 

[Wintermote]

 

Mate, you nerfed them so hard that a light jacket made of fabrics protects better than suits designed for working in hostile atmospheric and environmental conditions involved in a spacestation breaking into pieces. Things like the detective's suit and security officer's uniform - clothing, not even armor; now provide the same kind of melee protection as these:

 

This is a nerf that wasn't even called for.

 

Was there some outcry about how unbalanced hardsuits were? Because I don't recall seeing it anywhere. Nor any admins asking anyone about what they felt was unbalanced.

Can you please just stop randomly nerfing shit?

 

[Bone White]

Coming back after two months and seeing you posting the same things Wintermote I have to ask - why are you still here? There are other servers out there, perhaps you'd find what you want on one of those?

[Rumiluntti]

Yeah, "If you don't like it, fuck off" is just the right mentality. It makes every pants on head retarded change totally justified and cool.

[Spacemanspark]

 

Coming back after two months and seeing you posting the same things Wintermote I have to ask - why are you still here? There are other servers out there, perhaps you'd find what you want on one of those?

 

Are you seriously trying to goad a player out? There are more things to like about a community than its code. If a player is unhappy with a change, they are well within their rights to speak out about it.

And ya, it really DOESN'T make sense as to why the forensics jacket is way better than a hardsuit in terms of defense.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

This isn't about realism, it's about balancing the game and giving meaningful distinction between job classes. If it were realisitic, then HoS's hat would have no armor, engineers wouldn't have rad resist on their clothing, hardly anything would be completely fireproof, etc.

 

Rig suit covers literally the entire body (there's only two adminus related armors that I can think of that cover everything; Cap's spacesuit and the SWAT suit in the armory), provide complete immunity to space, has built in flash immunity, hot+cold resistance, rad protection, virus immunity, a free slotless flashlight, and it has an ultra-low permeability coefficient (and they still have all these things). It's just not overlapping with security armor anymore and has a bit more slowdown to compensate for it having massive utility and is still armored.

 

For comparison, here's armored vests, which only provide damage resits and nothing more---and only protect the chest+groin:

 

/obj/item/clothing/suit/armor/vest

name = "armor"

desc = "An armored vest that protects against some damage."

armor = list(melee = 50, bullet = 15, laser = 50, energy = 10, bomb = 25, bio = 0, rad = 0)

 

Old rig had similar armor values (with laser being the only noticeably lower value) while still retaining its massive utility; you literally had your cake and could eat it too. If you want better amor for your head; grab a red hardhat; it has better armor values and offers pressure protection--but you lose out on other utility.

 

[Earthdivine]

Man why did I have to find this thread while I'm at work, I got so many words on this subject and a phone is so not the thing to write them on. So going to do a write up on why this is a good idea when I get home.

[belarion]

 

I think a better option would be just limit the number of hardsuits (two in EVA, one or two in secure storage, maybe make EVA CE access only) and give engineering soft suits instead.

Because in all honesty, a "hard" suit offering less protection than some wool and cotton is just unbalanced in favour of security (who never have their armours nerfed I've noticed).

Making the hardsuits rarer and harder to actually aquire would adequately justify their value in combat no? Especially since engineers are always the ones who end up going up against the likes of space carp/xenomorphs/blobs.

 

[Earthdivine]

 

Incoming words!

 

The engineering hardsuit needed a nerf. That's a given. As Fox pointed out the hardsuit covered the whole body from the neck down, with the same values as the security vest, and being the safest armor in the entire game from the environments of SS13, meaning engineering was, in all regards, as sturdy as security at all times, because there's literally no point in taking off the hardsuit outside of roleplaying. Now step away from the hardsuit and take a look at engineering as a whole. They can access any door on station, they control the most powerful forces of the station, and literally dictate if the station is even going to run this shift. They have the easiest access to space gear and the means to enter space, meaning they can go into the station from any place they choose. All of this AND the same defensive qualities as security? All engineering is missing is a way to stun people and they could just be the security force, oh wait they can make improvised stun batons. Hell, if they wanted to they could keep security from even leaving their damn department, can sec do that? The sec tape can be cut by Wire-cutters, so no, they cant. Engineering can kill someone without ever being there if the player knows how to use Atmos.

 

As for Realism, the RIG that the hard-suit is based off of? Take a look at Issac's engineering RIG. It sucks. There's barely any metal or armor plating outside of the chest and spine in Dead Space 1, most of the suit itself being made of Leather or other space worthy material. As you progress through the game you upgrade from Engineering RIG, to a Security RIG, and finally a Military RIG. The Engineering RIG sucks defensively, both in it's concept and it's in-game use.

 

As for the hard-suits, the only one I believe was affected was the engineering hard-suit, the Security one is still fine right? That's good, because there's about 7 engineering hard-suits, 4 in secure storage and 3 to be used immediately, 8 if you count the CE's. That's A LOT of hard-suits, compared to security's 2. It even outnumbers the amount of Security vests available at the start. Granted you can order more through the Cargo Shuttle, but that's still a lot of free power laying around for someone to get.

 

I have even more words to say about engineering as a whole but I figured i'd stop here.

 

EDIT: I got more words! About balance though!

 

A big thing with Bay and /TG/ Balance is, they don't. I remember a coder way back when saying, rather then balance the shit they were making, the admins can patrol and make sure no one abuses the stuff they were making. How is that anywhere close to being a good idea? Things from Baycode really need to be hit, the hard-suits being one of them just because how GOOD they are, combined with the rest of the shit engineering has. If not the hard suits, then what else would we have hit. Would you want engineers to be without a free multitool so we can at least restrict their access better? Make the hard-suit not space worthy so they aren't the only department that can space travel? It's a very minor balance nerf compared to what else could have happened.

 

[Regen]

 

I think a better option would be just limit the number of hardsuits (two in EVA, one or two in secure storage, maybe make EVA CE access only) and give engineering soft suits instead.

Because in all honesty, a "hard" suit offering less protection than some wool and cotton is just unbalanced in favour of security (who never have their armours nerfed I've noticed).

Making the hardsuits rarer and harder to actually aquire would adequately justify their value in combat no? Especially since engineers are always the ones who end up going up against the likes of space carp/xenomorphs/blobs.

I agree with just lowering the amounts of hardsuits on station instead of nerfing the armour it has.

 

[Plotron]

 

Too many hardsuits. Too many engineers permanently stuck in them strolling the hallways. Too little workers in vests, hard caps and tape. Quality over quantity!

 

No, really, they should be for emergencies only. Make it count.

 

[Gibson1027]

 

Why not keep the slowness,buff the suits back up, and have a limited number in eva for engineers to use (I think 4 -6 and the ce's) This deters engineers from going full idiot and wearing it 24/7 because of the slowness. Still gives accessibility to them for the eminent attacks and holes into space there are going to be. And allows them to be safe from damn space carp when we are repairing hull breaches with our little jetpacks. I will say if you got froggy you could make it a customization suit where r&d stick on armor parts or mechanical leg harnesses to make you go fast. It would satiate all problems but that is ALOT of work.

 

 

Just as a side note to this: Of all things engineering hard-suit nerfs are not the end of the world, but I see why players complain about them. It is a direct debuff to a common staple of a fantastic job and not many players are familiar with handling the job without a suit. So if there is that much of an uproar just listen and compromise, not shoo people away for complaining. This is a good community with good people and good ideas. Why not work together to make our 2d spaceman game a little better for everyone both player,and admin?

 

[Fox McCloud]

The one change I'd very strongly consider making is elimination of hardsuit punctures; currently, as it stands, you get shot or bit a couple of times and your suit loses pressure protection, effectively making them worthless for their intended purpose once they take the slightest bit of damage. This was, I believe, Bay's "solution" to the incessant usage of hardsuits.

[Earthdivine]

How about we reduce the hard suits to EVA storage and revert the armor change, and put a lot of soft suits in engineering? The hard suits would be for times where there's a known threat to the crew and the engineers would NEED that defensive armor to do their jobs and keep them safe while doing it.

[Fox McCloud]

 

How about we reduce the hard suits to EVA storage and revert the armor change, and put a lot of soft suits in engineering? The hard suits would be for times where there's a known threat to the crew and the engineers would NEED that defensive armor to do their jobs and keep them safe while doing it.

 

I moved the sec hardsuits to the armory and medical hardsuits to medical secure storage; currently there's now 4 softsuits in EVA in their place. Still doesn't address the um...plethora of engineering hardsuits though.

 

[Qinetix]

 

Well moving them and replacing them with space suits and jetpacks would be nice. Not to mention that no one visits the medical secondary storage, would make people reach hardsuits in critical emergency situations like nuke ops, blob and other crazy stuff faster too.

 

That would make EVA empty tough. We could cut it in half and add in a new room.

 

[Fj45]

 

Alright, this discussion again.

Look, I really don't feel like having to rant again, so I'll keep it short:

 

Removing bays horribly done hardsuit breaching=awesome.

 

Nerfing hardsuit armour=needed.

 

Making people strolling around in hardsuits restricted/whatever=bad. I really shouldn't have to explain why this is a non-issue.

 

Massively reducing the number of hardsuits around the station=very bad.

 

Nerfing the speed of hardsuits and armour=bad, just nerf the armour.

 

[BadApple797]

 

Pretty sure soft-suits can't store big airtanks in their suit storage, making them very unsuited for engineering work.

 

Same problem with the slow, but the time it became enough of a hindrance to stop people wearing them it made fixing breaches and such much more time consuming.

 

Personally I liked how the old big, armoured slow suits with the equip time felt, but I couldn't get work done in them. They'd be ok for a heavy RP server but not for this

 

[Czardoc]

 

Coming back after two months and seeing you posting the same things Wintermote I have to ask - why are you still here? There are other servers out there, perhaps you'd find what you want on one of those?

 

this is quite the post. "if you dont like it, you can fuck off" mentality is quite a thing to see.

 

anyways, on topic.

 

earthdivine and fox are spot on.

the engineering RIG in dead space was nothing close to an armored suit. it was patches of clothing and some metal, and you managed to upgrade to better rigs.

as for "wool and cotton providing more protection than a rig suit", keep in mind you're suit is, again, utility, not combat. i'm surprised your RIG doesn't fall apart when some robust ass guy slams a crowbar on you. at least we get tears.

RIG suits are meant for your every day 0 kPa engineer working in the low-gravity region of space or in some depressurized area, not in a battlefield.

 

compared to all those cargo techs, scientists, misc workers, doctors, and (maybe) miners, you have the next best thing to a suit of armor out of security. and remember, unlike the sec armor only protecting a chest and groin, you get protection all around, which should be considered a holy trade off for that big ass utility suit.

quite literally you have really good armor available to non-traitors and it shouldn't get to the point where you're robust with it. if you think of it in an IC sense, nanotrasen made RIG suits - based off dead space suits, which have minimal protection from combat - and NT wouldn't just pile armor onto your RIG so you can walk around being robust.

 

[Shadeykins]

 

I would very much like to see the speed debuff gone if the armour values have dropped.

 

As it currently stands I will REMOVE MY HARDSUIT and carry it in my hand if I need to get from Point A to Point B just because of how GOD AWFULLY SLOW it makes me.

 

[Streaky Haddock]

I think the speed debuff should be removed now that hardsuits are much less common.

[TeDGamer]

Hardsuits are even more common now Streaky because of the away missions that have a few of them.

[Streaky Haddock]

oh.