Making space cold and nerfing possibly nerfing vaccum damage

[Mrs Dobbins]

 

Before everyone shouts MUH REALISM at me, Space Station 13 is ostensibly a game, and games have traditionally sacrificed realism for fun.

I want space cooling to actually be viable in atmopsherics, and reduce the amount of busywork required in setting up a cooling loop.

Sure , don't nerf Vacuum damage to the point that it is possible to survive in space with a firesuit, heater and internals for short periods (in fact, I'd rather space was as lethal as possible), but I would like space cooling to be viable. Space heaters also feel pointless as they aren't really needed in the process of making rooms habitable.

 

[Bone White]

 

Space is already cold, but having near zero pressure, it therefore has near zero thermal transference value.

 

Putting a mug of boiling water in space will stay hotter for longer than putting that mug on a table in your kitchen. Space is cold, but it doesn't rapidly chill objects which end up in it.

 

The main danger from sudden space exposure is that you pass out / die from fast decompression sickness, aka ebullism.

 

[FalseIncarnate]

 

I want space cooling to actually be viable in atmopsherics, and reduce the amount of busywork required in setting up a cooling loop.

 

I would like to point out a few things regarding this line specifically.

 

First, there is a space loop already in place in atmospherics. It is (at round-start) only connected to 2 connector ports, but is rather easy to incorporate into an atmos configuration. I personally use them in my systems which (despite all the head-butting I've done with Fj45 on the matter) does work quite well.

 

Second, it is an incredibly viable method of cooling, as it performs better as the internal pressure (and temperature) rises. This means that it gets better when you need the cooling most: during fires. It can also super-cool large amounts of a gas, such as N2 for the supermatter (which is on it's way out) or CO2 for killing.

 

Third, due to it's existing piping, there is little busywork in setting up a cooling loop. The default one most people use (the coolers) is simply adjusting 2 valves, turning on a pump, and setting the coolers themselves. Even my set-up, which is a bit more intensive, is only a couple minutes of work to get completed and active. If anything, I'd support MORE work for atmos techs, because once the system is running there is very little work to do until there is a fire or toxin leak. Experimenting with the pipes is completely optional and typically not done by many people.

 

The space loop does work, though under normal conditions, such cooling is rarely needed. Space heaters mainly exist so that in the event someone messes with an air alarm and drops the thermostat or there is a leak of ultra-cold gas, you can fix the temperature issues faster. It's also a free power cell if you never intend to use them.

 

[Mrs Dobbins]

 

I want space cooling to actually be viable in atmopsherics, and reduce the amount of busywork required in setting up a cooling loop.

 

I would like to point out a few things regarding this line specifically.

 

First, there is a space loop already in place in atmospherics. It is (at round-start) only connected to 2 connector ports, but is rather easy to incorporate into an atmos configuration. I personally use them in my systems which (despite all the head-butting I've done with Fj45 on the matter) does work quite well.

 

Second, it is an incredibly viable method of cooling, as it performs better as the internal pressure (and temperature) rises. This means that it gets better when you need the cooling most: during fires. It can also super-cool large amounts of a gas, such as N2 for the supermatter (which is on it's way out) or CO2 for killing.

 

Third, due to it's existing piping, there is little busywork in setting up a cooling loop. The default one most people use (the coolers) is simply adjusting 2 valves, turning on a pump, and setting the coolers themselves. Even my set-up, which is a bit more intensive, is only a couple minutes of work to get completed and active. If anything, I'd support MORE work for atmos techs, because once the system is running there is very little work to do until there is a fire or toxin leak. Experimenting with the pipes is completely optional and typically not done by many people.

 

I know there is already a space loop. I personally use a setup that relies on just coolers and a brand new loop, largely as it means I get to go and shout at science for more freezer boards and components, and makes the life of the humble atmospherics technician more interesting. I might try using the the current space cooling loop. Also,I realise the whole radiation of heat in a vacuum thing, it's just that when you check the atmos scanner in space, it normally reads out -17 degrees.

 

When I said busywork, it's probably just me. My normal setup involves ripping out a third of the piping and installing a brand new cooling loop. Next time I have to cool 4 tanks of n2, which is rare, as no one uses the supermatter, I will just pump it all into the space loop and see what happens.

 

[Fj45]

 

Fox is working on a fix so space is godamn cold like it should be, or atleast trying to.

 

From what I have heard, space code is pretty messed up.

 

 

Also False, the space loop works, but only barely.

 

[Fj45]

 

Space is already cold, but having near zero pressure, it therefore has near zero thermal transference value.

 

Putting a mug of boiling water in space will stay hotter for longer than putting that mug on a table in your kitchen. Space is cold, but it doesn't rapidly chill objects which end up in it.

 

The main danger from sudden space exposure is that you pass out / die from fast decompression sickness, aka ebullism.

 

None of this matters, I want balance and fun not "realsim."

 

[Plotron]

 

None of this matters, I want balance and fun not "realsim."

 

but, but... but muh EMULHSIONS!!

 

[Spacemanspark]

None of this matters, I want balance and fun not "realsim."

[Plotron]

 

In reality it's easier to overcook your station than freeze it to death, so yeah, whatever floats your boat.

My immersionz...

 

[PJB3005]

 

 

None of this matters, I want balance and fun not "realsim."

 

I don't see the increase in fun from making space cold

 

[belarion]

 

This doesn't seem to be a "fun" issue so much as its a "atmos techs are sad they were nerfed" issue.

Seriously, the only people who've kept being upset about space being not cold are the atmos techs

 

As far as I'm concerned space is deadly enough as it is, making it freeze you as well would just mean more mortality that would need balancing.

 

[Spacemanspark]

I don't play Atmos Tech.

[belarion]

 

I don't play Atmos Tech.

In your heart, you are an atmos tech.

I don't see how making space deadlier is fun though.

 

[Fj45]

 

 

None of this matters, I want balance and fun not "realsim."

 

I don't see the increase in fun from making space cold

 

Space heaters would be useful, hull breaches would make any exposed rooms very cold, EVAing without a space suit could be balanced better, the space loop wouldn't be useless, cooling the station to death would be possible, ectectectect.

 

[Fj45]

 

This doesn't seem to be a "fun" issue so much as its a "atmos techs are sad they were nerfed" issue.

Seriously, the only people who've kept being upset about space being not cold are the atmos techs

 

As far as I'm concerned space is deadly enough as it is, making it freeze you as well would just mean more mortality that would need balancing.

 

It isn't a case of atmos techs being nerfed, its a case of atmos techs being bloody broken! Space loops are useless, hull breaches are far less fun then they should be due to the very simple fact that you need two things: A patched hull and a working distro loop. With cold space, you would also need to bring in a space heater.

 

Gee,maybe because that's due to atmos techs being the only ones that INTERACT WITH SPACE IN A MEANINGFUL AWAY.

 

Having cold space makes it easier to balance, far far easier, infact for shorter trips space may end up safer if vacuum damage is nerfed.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

Space being cold actually makes the cold protection on nearly half the clothing actually mean something--it means you can cool a room more efficiently with cool , and properly allows firesuits to protect against pressure without acting as space suits--not to mention as FJ said, it means heaters have an actual purpose.

 

Needless to say, it'll be difficult to get space and airflow to be cold again; making space tiles cold is easy, so is making mobs take cold damage from space...but gas interaction with cold/space is dramatically changed compared to 1.5 years ago (when Bay axed space being cold).

 

I will warn you though---space being cold combined with ZAS will make depressurization horrendously devastating to anyone without access to a hardsuit or spacesuit (ie: nearly everyone). With FEA or FEA-like systems (LINDA), there's time to react, but with ZAS? It'll be a normal temperature room one moment, then literally freezing cold the next.

 

[Spacemanspark]

That would be just fine with ZAS, in my opinion.

[Plotron]

 

Oxygen deprivation is harsh as it is, we don't need more things to worry about. I agree with Fox on this one.

 

In reality instead of pipes simply exposed to space you'd have big radiator fins. Maybe we could use that?

 

Edited January 21, 2015 by Guest

[Spacemanspark]

Uh... Fox was stating we should have it, just that it would be scary with ZAS.

[Plotron]

If it's scary with ZAS, then it won't work in practice.

[Fox McCloud]

 

Uh... Fox was stating we should have it, just that it would be scary with ZAS.

 

I'm not saying either. I'm saying cold space+ZAS is recipe for dying 99% of the time if an area is depressurized. FEA or FEA-like+space being cold is manageable.

 

Keep in mind space being cold isn't JUST another damage layer; it means you're slowed to a halt as well because of being ...well..cold....which indirectly amplifies the pressure and oxygen damage you take.

 

If there was some way to make space tiles cold without it making the entire room cold, then it would probably be alright, but last I tested this, nothing happened to the mob to cool it.

 

[Midaychi]

 

You could use heat capacity instead of temperature. Tufs could have a moisture content that drops when the pressure drops below a critical point and is automatically slowly replenished by station atmosphere vents. Once the atmosphere drops below a critical point, the heat capacity of the air stops being significant to the human body and the evaporation of moisture and black body radiation takes over.

 

You could say humans have a heat capacity and atmospheres with a higher heat capacity fluctuations can affect humans more than atmospheres with a lower heat capacity of humans. A human in boiling water would heat up a lot more effectively than a human in air mix with the same temperature, and a human would barely be affected by an atmosphere with a tiny heat capacity like vacuum.

 

The problem is that humans are also moisture based beings, and moisture evaporates incredibly fast in a vacuum. A human in a vacuum, (in addition to the normal brue effects of sudden decompression such as nitrogen bubbling) would encounter suddenly that all the moisture on their surfaces and orifices decided to go into space for an adventure, taking their heat energy with them.

 

Thus, while the temperature of a vacuum is negligible (and in fact a human can technically overheat in a vacuum, hence why vox have that silly heat exchanging tail), the rapid expulsion of evaporating moisture leaves them both uncomfortably dry and fucking amazingly cold (water has a pretty great heat capacity).

 

[Fj45]

 

You could use heat capacity instead of temperature. Tufs could have a moisture content that drops when the pressure drops below a critical point and is automatically slowly replenished by station atmosphere vents. Once the atmosphere drops below a critical point, the heat capacity of the air stops being significant to the human body and the evaporation of moisture and black body radiation takes over.

 

You could say humans have a heat capacity and atmospheres with a higher heat capacity fluctuations can affect humans more than atmospheres with a lower heat capacity of humans. A human in boiling water would heat up a lot more effectively than a human in air mix with the same temperature, and a human would barely be affected by an atmosphere with a tiny heat capacity like vacuum.

 

The problem is that humans are also moisture based beings, and moisture evaporates incredibly fast in a vacuum. A human in a vacuum, (in addition to the normal brue effects of sudden decompression such as nitrogen bubbling) would encounter suddenly that all the moisture on their surfaces and orifices decided to go into space for an adventure, taking their heat energy with them.

 

Thus, while the temperature of a vacuum is negligible (and in fact a human can technically overheat in a vacuum, hence why vox have that silly heat exchanging tail), the rapid expulsion of evaporating moisture leaves them both uncomfortably dry and fucking amazingly cold (water has a pretty great heat capacity).

 

Once again, none of this matters, we do not need realsim.