MactoPerFuror complaint

[Innocent Fire]

 

Admin Key:MactoPerFuror

 

Complaint: Hello. I am a long term player of this server, have over 60 karma on my account and play on the daily. Today I was playing security borg, per-usual, and was doing everything by the book. The station was in and out of code blue and red all round, having been attacked by a ton of carp and slimes, as well as golden slime creations. The hallways near the bridge were filled with slimes and hostile creatures, and so was science. Anywho. I was patrolling for more hostile creatures when I came to the morgue. The was a creature I have never seen before and I had no idea what it was. So, as it came at me it yelled "WHAT IS GEK" That creatures name was GEK, mind you. So I thought it was just another NPC, since npcs DO talk in this game. I responded "Not crew" And eliminated it post haste before I was eaten by it Because if you've ever been attacked by carp or aliens as a borg, you know they chunk your hp. I was then messaged by an admin claiming that "Not crew doesn't mean you can murder". First of all, people kill nymphs, carps, any type of alien on a daily bases, so I was not aware defending myself against a possibly hostile mob that has nothing to do with the round or crew was murder.

http://imgur.com/jveWUu9 <- log 1

 

http://imgur.com/xFF7UrH <- log 2

 

I attempted to explain to the admin in question(MactoPerFuror) that there were multiple hostile entities on the station and that looked like one of them. The creature was a clown pony, apparently. Since that's what the admin called it. On my screen, it looked like a green tube with a brain on top of it, and when it turned at me it turned tan and had like specs all over it. Either way, it freaked me out because it came at me quickly after yelling.

 

Upon taking it out. I returned to security and attempted to detain a mime that was beating up the security crew, when I was suddenly gibbed. Asked the admin why I was gibbed, he said: "PM from-Game AdminMactoPerFuror: well, you seemed just fine with removing people from the round with poor reasoning, i figured you wouldnt mind the same circumstances."

 

I had no idea this was a player, and I also don't see why gibbing me justifies the fact that he died. It's just admin abuse. Upon further inspection, the 'pony' in question ended up being the admin. And this is not the first time he's done something like this to me, either. A while back. He broke into robotics as the clown and continued to try to push further into the department by spam clicking the door. I told him to get out, as a borg. My laws said to protect the innocent and punish the criminals or something along that line. When I attempted to remove him, he kept running around the room, refusing to leave through the opened door and continued to try to get into robotics. So, I electrified the door. He didn't listen and clicked the door, shocking himself. I dragged him out, making sure he was okay. Which he was entirely okay. He then messaged me saying "That wasn't honorable" and proceeded to yell at me, saying that basically all logic is out the window and only admins are right. (Yes I have the logs for this as well. https://www.dropbox.com/s/whu4z06bk2qoi ... 9.htm?dl=0) Anyway, I would have been banned if another admin didn't step up.

 

Anyway, I was clearly admin abused by this highly aggressive admin, who doesn't act anything like an admin when situations are targeted at himself. He takes things into his own hands, rather than letting another staff member deal with it. Thank you for your time.

 

[Crom]

 

I was not the said creature you killed.

 

You say your a longterm player, but your excuse for your behavior is summed up with "I just didn't know if it would kill me." This is clearly pandering for an excuse. It was obvious that it was not a hostile mob, as you even had time to reply to the player. You are well enough aware that NPC's do not wait for you to talk back. Gibbing you was to be a small punishment and for you to reflect on your actions.

 

Shocking the doors, admittedly wrong of me to handle my own issues (which I was corrected on), is still very much not a thing a borg is allowed to do to handle a small issue. Your a problem player who's issue is always about gaming that extreme line. You try to win the sympathy of the other admins everytime you get caught.

 

I may be abrasive and sound unprofessional due too it, but it is also the same reason why I can see right through this facade of yours.

 

[Innocent Fire]

 

I had asked another admin if you were the monster, and they didn't say no. So. I was under the impression that you were. Sorry for the confusion. I'm a problem player? I don't think so, but that's your opinion I suppose. And I win the sympathy of the admins everytime I get caught? I don't think me being right is sympathy. That's imply they feel bad for me, which surely they would not if I was a problem player. I have never been banned, I don't grief, I don't go around murdering players for fun. I don't bomb the station, I don't release plasma. I play the game. You're overly agressive and take things too personally, I didn't know it was a player, and I responded to the creature, yes. But that's because I rp, and everything happened in seconds. I interact with Ian even though he's an NPC, that doesn't mean anything. It's not like I sat there typing a paragraph in-front of it. You abused your powers to grief me, that's all there is to it. There was countless hostile randomly generated mobs on the station. This was no different.

 

And what does me being a long term player have to do with the fact that the creature looked odd? I have never seen it before. I'm sure there's things you haven't seen before.

 

[Crom]

 

Roleplay of the year: Walks up too something new that shows signs of sentience going "What is Gek?" and making the split decision making only a psychopath would make to murder it where it stands, because hell, even Ian in a fancy corset could be be grounds for it murdering the whole crew if you didn't recognize it first.

 

A longterm player would recognize how an NPC acts compared too a player, as they are extremely more simplistic. If it was hostile it would have done so in a heartbeat.

 

But that's because I rp, and everything happened in seconds.

your the only one to decide if it happened in seconds. Upon initial contact you had enough information to make proper decisions. Instead you chose a witty one liner and kill it even as it fled. Which I might add, is not NPC mechanics.

 

There was countless hostile randomly generated mobs on the station. This was no different.

You knew what your threats were. Slimes and Carp. There was no other entities mentioned of a hostile nature. You choose to single it out to kill on your own decisions. You had no reason to murder anything and everything you came across you did not recognize.

 

Lets examine something else shall we?

to-MactoPerFuror: Correction. He was tresspassing and I locked the room down. By him trying to enter a room he was not allowed to enter, he harmed himself.

 

and our newest one to the mix-"What is Gek?" "Not crew." *blasts*

 

How are these two things, which you got in trouble for, not extreme behavior? All I see is pandering to find loopholes in the rules just to find an excuse to harm or kill players. As an admin, I have to watch out for that kind of mentality. When I was the clown how am I supposed to not assume you just do that to any random civilian? If they ahelped as well I would have jumped all over you.

 

This current issue everything about it is just WRONG in context. I see no reason for this then just greif. Murder of something based on loose reasons, that do not even hold up with what I had witnessed in front of me. As i watched you hold a conversation with it. Both waiting for eachothers posts. I will not tolerate it.

 

Just because some other admin has not made you answer for your behavior before does not make what you did before validated. I am, as an admin telling you, that your behavior is wrong, and that this is how I am dealing with it. Clearly, this method did not work with you and I should reconsider for such in the future.

 

[Innocent Fire]

 

Roleplay of the year: Walks up too something new that shows signs of sentience going "What is Gek?" and making the split decision making only a psychopath would make to murder it where it stands, because hell, even Ian in a fancy corset could be be grounds for it murdering the whole crew if you didn't recognize it first.

 

A longterm player would recognize how an NPC acts compared too a player, as they are extremely more simplistic. If it was hostile it would have done so in a heartbeat.

This is implying that things do not change, and that things do not get coded into the game. You're saying that because I knew something 5 years ago, it's still true today. No. Things on this server change daily, which is why I still play it. New things are added, mechanics are changed, things are added to the game that make it fresh and renewing. In-fact, Slimes now talk, and guess what slimes are? Hostile creatures. They have constructed sentences. I may be a long term player of the server, but I don't play it 24/7 and know everything about it. There's new stuff I find out EVERY day.

 

You knew what your threats were. Slimes and Carp. There was no other entities mentioned of a hostile nature. You choose to single it out to kill on your own decisions. You had no reason to murder anything and everything you came across you did not recognize.

 

 

Did you miss the part where I said GOLDEN SLIME CREATIONS? Everything created from golden slime is randomly generated. They're often hostile as well. So no, please re-read. I didn't know what the threats where. The xenobiologist released a ton of gold-slime mobs, as well as a at least 30 oil slimes throughout the station.

 

Lets examine something else shall we?

to-MactoPerFuror: Correction. He was tresspassing and I locked the room down. By him trying to enter a room he was not allowed to enter, he harmed himself.

 

and our newest one to the mix-"What is Gek?" "Not crew." *blasts*

 

How are these two things, which you got in trouble for, not extreme behavior? All I see is pandering to find loopholes in the rules just to find an excuse to harm or kill players. As an admin, I have to watch out for that kind of mentality. When I was the clown how am I supposed to not assume you just do that to any random civilian? If they ahelped as well I would have jumped all over you.

 

These are two entirely different situations. The first one you WERE trespassing. Trespassing is against the law, thus you're now a criminal and a threat. You failed to leave when instructed, and continued to press forward towards an innocent, the roboticist. Being a default drone I had no other way to stop you from entering the room. It was my job to protect them, so I did. And I knew you wouldn't die from a shock, so I went with the only option I had. Every time I tried to pull you out of the room you would walk out of my grip. This is entirely your fault if you act like a jackass and got hurt because of it.

 

The newest one was just as legit. I had orders to take out unknown life forms that were roaming the station, carp, slime, and all of the randomly generated creations, including a fucking pine-tree, and a crate. So excuse me for expecting the unexpected.

 

This current issue everything about it is just WRONG in context. I see no reason for this then just greif. Murder of something based on loose reasons, that do not even hold up with what I had witnessed in front of me. As i watched you hold a conversation with it. Both waiting for eachothers posts. I will not tolerate it.

Waiting for each other's posts I walked into the room it said "WHAT IS GEK" And ran towards me. I replied 'Not crew' and smashed it's face in. I don't know what your time-frame was, but it was literally over in seconds.

 

Just because some other admin has not made you answer for your behavior before does not make what you did before validated. I am, as an admin telling you, that your behavior is wrong, and that this is how I am dealing with it. Clearly, this method did not work with you and I should reconsider for such in the future.

 

 

Let's examine something, shall we? "from-Game AdminMactoPerFuror: rule #1. Admin is never wrong. Rule 2# If wrong, read rule 1#" This is a classic example of power tripping. And you continue to show examples of this even when posting towards me. If you're going to pretend to be an admin, at least act like one.

 

[DeletedUser]

 

Thank you for your complaint, this issue is indeed worrying and will be investigated. Please cease the discussion for now beause it is turning quite hostile on both parties. Feel free to post if you have something relevant to add.

 

On another note, shocking doors as borg/AI is usually a no-no under most lawsets, if not all of them. But that's not the issue right now.

 

[necaladun]

 

Hi there. I'm currently reading over a few logs and talking to a variety of admins about this.

 

The first thing I want to address is the killing of animals/pets. A few issues have become clear:

 

1: - Admins (and players) seem to have various ideas about this. The issues of it being excessive violence/being a dick are the main ones here. There is nothing in the rules specifically about it however, and thus I do not see it as fair to punish players for it.

 

2: - It removes (potentially) people from the round. However, they may respawn as other NPCs, and being able to respawn as an NPC is not meant to be a replacement for playing as crew - it's simply something to entertain you if you're out of the round or don't want to play a full round.

 

3: - Killing Ian/other corgis can be a traitor objective. While it could be seen as self antagging to do this as a non-antag, that is not really the intent of self-antagging rules.

 

4: - Random killing of pets/etc is often done by less desirable players. Those who seem to get off on committing violent acts against 2dspesscorgis are often much more likely to engage in RDM or other problematic behaviour - I'm not saying this is you here at all, but a general pattern notice between a lot of players.

 

5: - Monkeys can be genetic accidents, changelings, etc. This means the line between crew and animal isn't so clear.

 

As there have been disagreements between staff and players with this in the past, I'll pass this ruling along:

 

Killing of animals - including Ian, Nymphs, Monkeys and Ponies - is an IC issue.

 

Knowingly killing a crew member who has been turned into an animal - due to the staff of change, genetics, etc - is to be considered murder, and potentially an OOC issue - especially if you turned them into it. Turning someone into a monkey does not mean you can kill them! A monkey flashing the ID of a geneticist would also come under this. In general, if you at all suspect they could be crew - try to help them, don't just kill them!

 

---

Hopefully this should clarify such issues in future, and highlight why some of this disagreement happened. I'll make a second post about the handling of the issue by Macto etc soon.

 

[Uyri]

 

Hello.

 

I was the dude that was killed by Innocent FIre, and I created an account just so I could put my ten cents in. I didn't know that there was a problem before searching to see if Gek's adventures had found their way onto these dandy forums, and I actually find it pretty funny that was a controversy created over my antics.

 

A few days ago, I was screwing around with limbs in the character setup screen and found that I could remove all of them before the game even started. After this discovery, I created Gek, a somewhat-stupid quadraplegic with a good heart and an open mind. As Gek, I roamed around in a wheelchair with no limbs (propulsion via lungs?) and caused mischief. I was fairly new to the game, as I am now, and I was having fun by cursing at people in the corridor and having to be helped back into my wheelchair by the same people I cursed at. I wheeled into the chapel after a while and started to Pray. I didn't know what the Pray command did, and I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask for limbs in broken English.

 

Miraculously, I was bestowed with limbs and was able to walk! I was overjoyed and confused at the same time. Was this a feature or some higher authority screwing with me? Soon enough, however, I was turned into some Clown-ny Pony thing. Gek was confused, as was I, and ran around bleating. Eventually, a certain cyborg walked in, and I pondered,"WHAT IS GEK?!" and the rest is history.

 

The whole situation was hilarious, I thought , and it made sense to me why I was exterminated. I was just happy that I had actually made some sort of progress in character, even if it ended in death. I wandered around for awhile as a mouse and then as Commander Clucky, who quickly got slaughtered after showing signs of sentience. I logged off after awhile, satisfied.

 

Anyways, I don't blame Flame for destroying me, as I didn't even know what I was. If any of this was my bad judgement in creating Gek and managing to get transformed into a Pony by some bored admin, I am sorry.

 

Toodles, Gek.

 

[necaladun]

 

Sorry for the delay in the reply, windows update ate my last reply

 

I have spoken to Headmins and Macto respectively about this, and as shown earlier, it became clear there were disagreements with how the rules relate to excessive violence/killing of non-crew members.

 

This has since been clarified.

 

Discussions with Macto gave the following justifications for his actions:

 

1: An eye-for-eye punishment for removing another player

2: Disbelief that a clown pony looked hostile

3: Use of gibbing as a minor punishment to remove from the round.

 

However, when it comes to these:

 

3: - This is no longer standard and frowned upon, where as in the earlier days of Paradise it was more common - this has been made clear.

2: - A misunderstanding as to the situation, and how you as a player lacked the knowledge of how that mob worked in the code/looked in game

1: - That this is not suitable as we are not Old Testament Gods, and that either a formal warning or a ban is more suited for rule breaking.

 

As said earlier, it is now clear in retrospect with my discussions and rulings that you were not breaking the rules here, but I can understand how it could have been seen you were.

 

The behaviour here by Macto reflects an older mentality of staff that is one we are trying to dissuade. I've spoken to various admins about this and will be looking into similar examples myself if they occur. Macto has taken onboard the censure, and I expect a much more professional attitude. This would have been acceptable in our earlier days, but not now, and it has now been made clear it is not.

 

Thank you for bringing this to our attention to allow me to both rule on the killing of non-crew in this sense, and to give a good example to the staff of how these things shall not be approached in future. If they are, please contact me or a head of staff ASAP.

 

[DeletedUser]

No answer from OP for over a week, closing this and moving to resolved. Resubmit your complaint if you disagree.