Grand space law discussion thread

[necaladun]

 

Glory to NT.

 

This thread is for discussion of the new space law.

 

So far reception has been overwhelmingly positive, which is great. But here is where I want problems to be brought up and discussed.

 

 

The first is as follows: Disarming/pushing is counted as assault, or assault of an officer.

 

Pushing someone down IRL has the risks of them hitting their head while falling etc, this isn't the case here. Pushing does 0 damage.

 

However, stun-locking someone, especially by tabling, repeated pushing, etc, is really damn annoying.

 

Disarming an officer of their weapon is also rather severe - just like grabbing a gun/baton/tazer from a cop IRL would be...really bad.

 

This means that punching them several times also has the same charge as pushing them down once, which feels wrong.

 

 

The best solution I can think of is to re-introduce battery/minor assault as a minor crime, which would be defined as something like,

 

"To push or disarm another person without lawful cause, without actual damage being caused."

 

[Deanthelis]

 

If all they do is knock you down once? Who cares, people disarm by accident while trying to hug all the time, one push shouldn't be a crime.

 

If they TAKE something from you, now it's Robbery. If they took your baton or taser, it's also Possession of a Restricted Weapon.

 

Battery and minor assault need to fuck off. They were abused before and will be abused again.

 

If you get knocked over and repeatedly slip table slipped, sure it isn't damaging you, but it’s most likely going to stop you from responding to an actual call for help - and if the actual criminal hurts or damages or otherwise does something while you're incapacitated, then the clown or whoever is tabling you is now an accomplice, and can be charged with their crimes. This would happen IRL if you distraxted a cop while your buddy knocked off the liquor store around the corner.

 

[Deanthelis]

Let's talk about breaking and enterinf for a minute, in relation to multiple charges. If Honky McSlips the Clown breaks into Robotics, he has one charge. But if he breaks into Science's main hall through the window from robotics, did he commit a second crime, since he's broken into a second place, or does it all count as one break in? If he breaks into the RDs office afterwards, does he have THREE crimes, or just the one crime for breakijg into a secure area?

[Spacemanspark]

I'd count it all as one crime.

[Streaky Haddock]

 

I'd say it'd all be one trespassing charge until he breaks into the RD's office in which i'd just count that entire break in as one charge of breaking into a secure area.

I quite like battery as a law and I think that pushing someone over should count as such. Other than that i'm content with Dean's summary of a guy pushing an officer over and taking his gun.

 

[necaladun]

 

The problem I have here is that if you're gonna get done for assault when you push someone, then you may as well punch them repeatedly. The charges remain the same as long as you don't be seen to be attempting murder or use a deadly weapon.

 

So, a 5 min minor crime for minor assault make sense to me. But it seems definitions I think of would include being HONKed once with a bike horn.

 

[Deanthelis]

 

Battery has been and will be abused by sec unless it is VERY specific as to what constitutes it and, if they do anything but hugspam or knockdown, it's already a much more severe crime.

 

Frankly, if you can't handle being slipped or pushed every once in a while without anything else happening, you shouldn't play sec. You probably shouldn't play at all, because that can happen to pretty much anyone who interacts with people regularly.

 

[BadApple797]

 

Battery has been and will be abused by sec

Back in my toy sword days I got brigged for Assault, Assualt of an Officer, or Assualt of a Head, like 80% of the time, so I am all for getting less time in brig this way. Shitcurity cannot be stopped, but having battery would make it stand out more when an officer is being a jerk and would at least persuade some of them to give you lesser timers.

 

I've had some security members play dead when I hit them with toys, or pick on up and fight back- fantastic. Its a nice little bit of fun, but considering its more likely the player will stun, cuff, parade you around brig before stripping you naked and setting your timer for 4x what it should be it, its safest to just do your job like a robot each round least security so much as notices you.

The amount a security officer can just decide to be a cuff-crazy red-suited arsehole is huge, but its nothing we're EVER gunna fix.

 

 

 

Frankly, if you can't handle being slipped or pushed every once in a while without anything else happening, you shouldn't play sec. You probably shouldn't play at all

 

 

 

That's partly the problem. When we have no shitty officers, we more often than not simply have no officers, Good players avoid sec because of the average mentality of their co-workers and greytide alike.

 

[Streaky Haddock]

I'm also bothered by the fact that the Magistrate is expressly forbidden from overseeing timed sentences. Not only does the Magistrate have nothing to do a lot, he's also unable to curtail awful security.

[FalseIncarnate]

 

However, stun-locking someone, especially by tabling, repeated pushing, etc, is really damn annoying.

 

Disarming an officer of their weapon is also rather severe - just like grabbing a gun/baton/tazer from a cop IRL would be...really bad.

 

The best solution I can think of is to re-introduce battery/minor assault as a minor crime, which would be defined as something like,

 

"To push or disarm another person without lawful cause, without actual damage being caused."

 

For pushing, I'd say it would have to be repeated and excessive pushing/knock down. Sometimes, the guy just won't get out of your way when you are doing something important, so you shove him aside to get at that air alarm / critical patient / computer / clown in need of abuse. Usually they'll get back up and either stay hit/push you back (thus picking a fight) or realize they were blocking you and move aside if you are still there.

 

For disarming, this gets more grey area. Occasionally you disarm someone because they snatched the stuff you were working with and put down for a moment (toolboxes, medkits, and other tools usually). Sometimes you have to attempt to disarm a few times because it failed or you are trying to knock them down. Excessive disarm would be more like trying to disarm someone holding something you don't need, like the clown trying to disarm the chef for his rolling pin, or anyone disarming a sec officer for their weapon.

 

Disarming an officer is rarely viewed as anything but resist arrest / assaulting an officer. The only case where you could feasibly be justified in doing so is to disarm them of their weapon when they are actively attacking an innocent (Secman Supercop-manjenson is beating the crap out of Sweepy O'Cleanerguy 4noraisins).

 

Tabling and other stunlocks clearly are meant to antagonize the victim unless it is being used to subdue them until sec can arrive. Doing so without calling for security would be a crime, since it's battery.

 

[FalseIncarnate]

However, stun-locking someone, especially by tabling, repeated pushing, etc, is really damn annoying.

 

Disarming an officer of their weapon is also rather severe - just like grabbing a gun/baton/tazer from a cop IRL would be...really bad.

 

The best solution I can think of is to re-introduce battery/minor assault as a minor crime, which would be defined as something like,

 

"To push or disarm another person without lawful cause, without actual damage being caused."

 

For pushing, I'd say it would have to be repeated and excessive pushing/knock down. Sometimes, the guy just won't get out of your way when you are doing something important, so you shove him aside to get at that air alarm / critical patient / computer / clown in need of abuse. Usually they'll get back up and either hit/push you back (thus picking a fight), or realize they were blocking you and move aside if you are still there.

 

For disarming, this gets more grey area. Occasionally you disarm someone because they snatched the stuff you were working with and put down for a moment (toolboxes, medkits, and other tools usually). Sometimes you have to attempt to disarm a few times because it failed or you are trying to knock them down. Excessive disarm would be more like trying to disarm someone holding something you don't need, like the clown trying to disarm the chef for his rolling pin, or anyone disarming a sec officer for their weapon.

 

Disarming an officer is rarely viewed as anything but resist arrest / assaulting an officer. The only case where you could feasibly be justified in doing so is to disarm them of their weapon when they are actively attacking an innocent (Secman Supercop-manjenson is beating the crap out of Sweepy O'Cleanerguy 4noraisins).

 

Tabling and other stunlocks clearly are meant to antagonize the victim unless it is being used to subdue them until sec can arrive. Doing so without calling for security would be a crime, since it's battery.

[veganzombeh]

IMO, the assault laws are now too harsh. 10 minutes for one punch or even one disarm seems a bit excessive. I think it's also missing some important crimes like disobeying orders. Although I do like the new riot laws.

[Spacemanspark]

I want minor assault and battery back.

[necaladun]

 

I want minor assault and battery back.

 

Both seems redundant - they'd be a minor crime at most.

 

Defining the difference between a minor and normal assault seems tough without it being up to the choice of the officer/warden.

 

I agree that 10 mins for one simple push seems excessive, but when it comes to punches, you're doing actual damage. A simple solution if you don't want to be brigged from 10 minutes is not to punch people. I don't know how to word minor assault to cover that beyond saying "just one punch" which has problems in itself. And again, it feels very wrong to me to have both punching and pushing be the same crime.

 

When it comes to disobeying orders, that's a matter for the HoP - you can obviously be demoted/fired for it. But having sec taze and throw you into a cell because you said you couldn't be bothered wiring the solars seems stupid to me. If it's a case of refusing to follow orders leading to death or harm, then that's a space law thing, but too often it was used in a stupid power play.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

I've seen instances where people start defending themselves, security comes by, and arrests the defender for whatever reason (not always because shitcurity.), and tosses them in for the ten fucking minutes when the attacker wasn't even hit that hard.

At the very least, having minor assault would lessen the times on these instances.

That, and people tend to be less pissed when the sentence is smaller. Even if they were a massive shit and punched some idiot for next to no reason, they're a LOT less likely to come get revenge on security/ other crew if they get four minutes, instead of a ten minute sentence. Not always, but it does help.

 

[necaladun]

 

The thing there is that if they're using disarm to defend themselves, they shouldn't really be arrested - although it's tough for security to determine who threw the first punch, etc. It is rare that self defence actually requires doing damage to someone - there are no stand your ground laws here, push and run is all that's needed most of the time.

 

Perhaps a "brawling" charge, for charging two people who both seemed to be willingly engaging in a fight together?

 

I don't like the idea of giving reduced punishments to people who are being shits because they might get revenge on people for it. It's a pretty bad precedent.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

A brawling charge would be nice, as long as there is an exception made for the boxing arena.

And ya, people who get arrested are very likely to be a big shit to security, either way. Not much you can do about that, I guess.

 

[Deanthelis]

Self defense is already a complete and total defense against any charge. However, violence can only be allowed when trapped with an assailant. The best thing to do is to push the other guy over, shout for security and tell them where you are and who is punching you, then attempt to run away toward security, so that you meet them halfway.

[veganzombeh]

 

When it comes to disobeying orders, that's a matter for the HoP - you can obviously be demoted/fired for it. But having sec taze and throw you into a cell because you said you couldn't be bothered wiring the solars seems stupid to me.

 

But there no longer seems to be any way to effectively demote people without their consent. They can simply say "No, I won't go to the HoP office." and you can't arrest them, because disobeying orders isn't a crime.

 

[Fj45]

The less "I hate you so I'll demote you" crap the better.

[Deanthelis]

 

Refusal to work should have some kind of punishment for non civilians. I've been various head roles and had subordinates flat out tell me no when I tell or even ask politely for them to go do their fuckin' job, and people who don't do their job at all and aren't antagonists are basically just wasting that job slot and should have joined in as a civilian.

 

Refusing to work IRL gets you fired* so why wouldn't a mega corporation that doesn't care about its workers or their feelings make everyone contractually obligated to do their job, pending termination if they refuse?

 

[veganzombeh]

 

Refusal to work should have some kind of punishment for non civilians. I've been various head roles and had subordinates flat out tell me no when I tell or even ask politely for them to go do their fuckin' job, and people who don't do their job at all and aren't antagonists are basically just wasting that job slot and should have joined in as a civilian.

 

Refusing to work IRL gets you fired* so why wouldn't a mega corporation that doesn't care about its workers or their feelings make everyone contractually obligated to do their job, pending termination if they refuse?

I agree. Even if there's no real punishment, space law should at least clarify that these types of crimes can result in forced demotion.

 

[necaladun]

 

Agreed, there needs to be clarification on what people can/can't be fired for, and how refusal to be fired would be handled.

 

Technically, you -could- say that they're trespassing after they've been fired, but that's a bit roundabout. SoP and other things could handle what you can be fired for - just like IRL, you can be fired for many things that aren't crimes.

 

What are some things people should (and shouldn't!) be able to be fired for?

 

[Scrat]

 

You could be fired for:

- Refusing to work (IE: Chemist keeps making non-lethal bombs or otherwise fucks off from their post)

- Refusing legitimate orders (IE: HoS tells you to arrest someone who has commited a crime and you refuse)

- Being a nuisance / wasting department resources (IE: Cargo tech spends all cargo points on costume crates and goes around trying to make everyone in cargo a Clown)

- Excessive disrespect of coworkers or superior

 

[Deanthelis]

 

Excessive disrespect needs to not be punishable, because seriously, that only empowers comdoms.

 

We recently had an incident in which a person was fired for calling their head a 'nerd'.

 

That needs to stay gone. For good.