Bringing up an old issue. (OH&S)

[Dumbdumn5]

Just something that's been bugging me for a really long time. IPCs have plenty of benefits already, but what doesn't make sense to me is the fact that they can't self repair. The lore doesn't help with this either, stating that " Nanotrasen allowed many to have their loyalty implants removed, and began manufacturing many without them alltogether." near the end of the story leading up to "modern" day IPCs. IPCs are great when dealing with environmental and non-player controlled hazards, but when it comes to interacting with people, they get demolished in one or two hits if the enemy has a remotely good weapon. For example, a pneumatic cannon will one hit kill an IPC no matter where it hits (I got hit in the left foot once with it, not point blank range, and immediately fell apart.), or hacking a vending machine (roundstart without power being touched) and losing your hand from the shock. Being incredibly fragile isn't really so much of a problem, but the fact that you cannot, in any way, repair yourself without assistance is devastating (Get exposed to the void for a second or hit by a thrown object, damage stays with you forever unless you meet somebody competent.). Antagonist interactions are heavily affected, same with anything involving combat between players, NPC hazards, and generally anything that doesn't involve oxygen or toxin damage. As for any discussion about lore (yes, I know it's not set in stone and changes depending on the writer), it basically says that the IPCs have no laws or implants, implying that they don't have anything to answer to regarding NanoTrasen or Space Law. So if anything, I'd at least like an explanation as to why OH&S is still necessary with the current state of Machine People. Just thought it'd be a good idea to explain my thoughts on this issue.

[necaladun]

 

The balance issue here with self repair is the main thing, but a better explanation would be good.

 

"You can't reach your own circuits properly!" or something?

 

[Dumbdumn5]

I understand that it's mainly for balancing, however the main problem I have with it is that it's such a large nerf to something that already has such a large problem with taking any sort of damage. Although, if we're going to be keeping this, making it sensible would at least be nice.... then again, your example explanation is still fairly bad for dealing with dents and such, as it most likely wouldn't deal with circuits outside of the cranial region. Most of the time it'd be dealing with wires or bent metal pieces. Maybe just restricting the circuitry issues to the head? Although, being robotic, I don't see how the issue of bending your arm is anything to worry about, especially since they'd be perfectly well aware of what they were touching. In terms of mechanics however, it's still a bit too much, and hideously annoying considering the fact that most people are fairly incompetent when dealing with IPCs.

[Earthdivine]

 

At the same time though, all organics need bicardane, dermaline, etc. and when they break a bone they spend an extensive time in surgery. For IPCs all you do is grab from a tool belt and click them a couple of times. This is the same thing as Engieborgs having self repair. If you need to need an have a reason why you can't, maybe make an excuse that the limbs can't bend all that ya back to reach those parts of the body.

 

EDIT: one way that would go a long way to fixing this is to edit the wiki to actually talk about IPC repair. I spent a good while searching it to find out how to put an IPC back together and I still needed to hand te head off to someone else because I couldn't find it.

 

[Deanthelis]

That's because you don't need to do anything special at all. Reattach the head and limbs, weld and cable it a bunch, and it's done.

[Fallinghero]

Which is exactly what makes it special...

[Dumbdumn5]

A better example of what I was trying to say is that, while they may be easy to repair, it's still a lot easier for the limb to fall off. I don't care how much cable coil or welding fuel you have left, you can't do surgery on yourself, and your limbs can get knocked off pretty easily due to the damage modifiers, making it fairly difficult to actually perform repairs before you need surgery. Organics may have to get surgery, but they still have the limb on them nearly all the time, they don't have to worry about it falling off (usually) or getting lost and they don't need to lug spare parts around until people figure out how to fix them. This is also fairly important because the limb will fall off instead of breaking, and with the damage modifications to IPCs, the limbs need only a few hits before falling off. IPCs don't avoid surgery, if anything they need it the most when they get into any sort of trouble, which, from personal experience, is quite a few times in one shift. Self repair could only help you before the event of dismemberment, I'm not asking for that to change, just the ability to try and prevent it before the point where you can't do anything without surgery. I understand that holding the parts for repair is easy enough as it is, however, the ability for the IPC to hold all of its limbs, get to surgery without dying, and then find the one person who understands that IPCs work the exact same way when it comes to surgery, is difficult enough. The amount of frustration with getting repairs, is often akin to dealing with a Head of Security that is unaware of how Space Law works.

[Fallinghero]

 

In general is it really that unknown? I see a lot of IPCs as doctors in medbay nowadays. Quite often I also see someone grabbing a welder or two and some cables to stick on a table in medbay purely so we can repair IPCs. However I rarely see any actually come in for said repairs.

This is just my experience though.

 

In regards to people knowing how the surgery works, BUP has already added a nice section on the Machine People wiki, but there is nothing mentioned in the actual surgery wiki.

I was thinking of adding something there myself, since I know a lot of surgeons use the wiki, at least at first.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

That's because you don't need to do anything special at all. Reattach the head and limbs, weld and cable it a bunch, and it's done.

The main issue with that is the fact that it's going to be hard to actually get to help before an inevitable point of no return, and due to the fact that a large majority of people still don't know how to deal with IPCs is a large problem. The IPCs aren't negating their need for help, but they're certainly able to survive a little bit longer without falling to pieces. Think of it as a human with all robotic limbs, they can repair themselves just fine, they don't have the damage modifiers, and they can easily get the materials for self repair without having to worry about the limb falling off before they get to help/ get supplies.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

In general is it really that unknown? I see a lot of IPCs as doctors in medbay nowadays. Quite often I also see someone grabbing a welder or two and some cables to stick on a table in medbay purely so we can repair IPCs. However I rarely see any actually come in for said repairs.

This is just my experience though.

 

In regards to people knowing how the surgery works, BUP has already added a nice section on the Machine People wiki, but there is nothing mentioned in the actual surgery wiki.

I was thinking of adding something there myself, since I know a lot of surgeons use the wiki, at least at first.

If you could add it to the wiki for surgery/ Medical Doctor, that may clear it up for some of the new players so they don't have to search specifically for Machine Person. The amount of greytide or new doctors that would even think of looking is probably low enough as to where it wouldn't exactly matter if BUP put something on the wiki (He conveyed the issues fairly well in that little bit) because the people who need to see it aren't seeing it. Half the time people don't understand that, for the most part, IPC repair is the exact same as human. Replace the healing chems with a welder and cable, but the surgery is still the exact same. I've had quite a few surgeons turn me away, and once had a CMO stab me in the eye with a fork for asking for help and not leaving until somebody competent showed up.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

At the same time though, all organics need bicardane, dermaline, etc. and when they break a bone they spend an extensive time in surgery. For IPCs all you do is grab from a tool belt and click them a couple of times. This is the same thing as Engieborgs having self repair. If you need to need an have a reason why you can't, maybe make an excuse that the limbs can't bend all that way back to reach those parts of the body.

I understand that IPCs are easy to fix, however, what you said about engineering cyborgs is fairly different in the fact that engineering cyborgs don't lose limbs. They don't need surgery for anything, and they certainly don't take as much damage as IPCs. Borgs have quite a bit more health in regards to an IPC too, and the only thing that really makes them similar is that they can beep, ping, and buzz. Yes, I understand that robotics sometimes has to replace a broken component or two after the borg has taken a very large beating (usually blob rounds).

 

EDIT: As for the excuse portion, I'm not asking for a new excuse as to why something with free will can't repair itself. It may be ridiculous, but it's SS13, and that means that a lot of things don't make sense. If we're comparing IPCs to organics, organics can certainly reach their chest, their back (if they angle their arm correctly) and just about everywhere else on their body without assistance. Assuming IPCs really are advanced cyborgs, they wouldn't have such a problem.

 

[Streaky Haddock]

I would be okay with a new message.

[Dumbdumn5]

Please note that I'm mainly asking for people to focus on the mechanic as a whole, not the excuse as to why they shouldn't have it. It's fine to want or to have a new message, but that's not the purpose of why I made this thread.

[Dumbdumn5]

 

A better example of IPC interactions with damage is this. Say a traitor has you surprised, after five to eight hits, from full health, you'll be dead if they have at least a crowbar. The main problem with the arguments I've seen against self repair are mainly saying something along the lines of, IPCs will be overpowered with the ability to fix themselves. However, the main issue is the time it takes to get help. In a combat situation, you won't have time to pull out your welder, turn it on, aim, and use it before your limb falls off, you die, or you drop the welder due to limb damage. Chances are, you'd get screwed over if anybody even got close to you, for example what I said about the pneumatic cannon. Science has easy access to the components required to make one, and they're fairly common place near end round. Anybody who wants to destroy an IPC can simply load anything into it and fire, destroying the IPC instantly if it hits, or at least bringing them into critical condition, unable to move.

 

EDIT: Will be unable to reply within the next 9 hours due to school, possibly more due to projects. I'll explain any gripes after this time period. Apologies.

 

[Osha]

 

I did not read much of this thread, but the main gripe I have with OH&S is miniscule amounts of damage.

My suggestion would to give IPCs some form of regeneration to heal 1-2 brute/burn damage for when someone throws a petty item at them. IC excuse? They have nanobots that can fix minimal damage. Sounds good to me.

 

[DeletedUser]

Or make them ignore hits that deal tiny ammounts of brute damage, like less than 2.

[Dumbdumn5]

 

Or make them ignore hits that deal tiny ammounts of brute damage, like less than 2.

Eh, not exactly a big problem or what I really made this for, but a nice suggestion nonetheless. Annoying looking at a red screen because somebody tossed a plate in your general direction.

 

[Mrs Dobbins]

Try being an IPC atmos tech and try to repair a waste pipe. Hell. Being able to repair yourself (to a degree) without needing to seek out some git with a welding mask is nice as scratch damage is annoying

[Dumbdumn5]

 

Try being an IPC atmos tech and try to repair a waste pipe. Hell. Being able to repair yourself (to a degree) without needing to seek out some git with a welding mask is nice as scratch damage is annoying

*arm is malfunctioning

*hand is malfunctioning

*arm is malfunctioning

*hand is malfunctioning

*arm is malfunctioning

*hand is malfunctioning

*arm is malfunctioning

*hand is malfunctioning

You get the point.

 

[Matt-Hawk]

I personally like the idea that you could do very minor repairs on yourself, but for greater injuries you would need to get proper repairs from someone else. It would overall be better in my opinion that people don't need to spend 15 minutes trying to find someone to repair them when they have only had vending machines launch things at them.

[Dumbdumn5]

The repairs can only work to the extent of your limb not falling off, which is pretty rare considering it takes barely anything to knock your hands/feet/legs/arms off.

[Dumbdumn5]

So are there any other arguments to this, or would that be all of them?

[Dumbdumn5]

Bump "Slade's arm flies off in an arc!"

[davidchan]

 

I send all IPCs to Robotics, regardless of my position. That said, IPCs unable to fix minor damage seems screwy. Organics can self medicate but can't do surgery to themselves (unless your special) and IPCs limbs just blow off rather than break, so it's not like they can just stick it back on the stump and call it day, they have such low damage thresholds for serious injury as is I don't see a reason not to let them self repair, given all the disadvantages they already have.

 

I don't even play an IPC character but it seems unfair they can't do basic first aid to themselves. A Cyborg I can understand, since you're basically a Darlek that can't touch themselves (yet Mediborgs can self apply nanopaste for some reason), but an IPC is actually capable of reaching itself and should be at least as qualified as any engineer with a welder on how to repair it's functions.

 

[Earthdivine]

Well according to Ponies he's wishing to make it so IPCs can pop their limbs back on without aid so I guess this was resolved?