Goonchem is coming and it seems to make a lot of people mad.

[Jack Fractal]

 

So this is happening.

 

I don't play chemist, I don't know the chemistry system, but I read through about three dozen threads complaining about this update over on the TG-station forums when it was implemented over there. This change-list is also going to include changes to the IPC character race to make them metabolize chemicals like organics do, with the ultimate goal of making all chems effect all races the same way.

 

The expressed reason for doing this is because of 'balance', a thing I've heard of, but I've never seen in any part of the SS13 code-base.

 

The most exhaustive thread about this over on TG that I've found was this one, and I believe the most recent poll on the topic was this one.

 

It was a 2-1 vote for a rollback.

 

You'll also notice, if you check out either of those threads, the enormous banner across the top of the entire feedback forum, ordering people to stop making threads complaining about it, as the place was flooded with threads of people complaining about it.

 

The reason it remains in TG is apparently that, because it is so all encompassing and so massive a change, removing it would be as much work as integrating it in the first place.

 

This server isn't TG, and it has a different play culture, maybe everyone here will love it, but I thought I should bring up what I know about it from the other server where it was implemented. It might be a better system, I don't know, but it should probably be talked about before it gets pulled.

 

[Fj45]

 

We already have a damned thread to discuss Goonchem, and I don't care how many people on TG don't like it, this is Paradise.

 

A very large number of those are just "I hate change" anyway.

 

For the IPCs and chems, well thats a balance issues that can be explored.

 

[Somnus]

 

(Copy pasted from the other thread)

 

As a dedicated doctor I do look forward to these changes but also have serious concerns. Paradise has few competent pharmacists; in many shifts one or both chemists are either messing around making useless drugs or are completely absent, despite how easy it is to make medications with the current system. The fridge is often left unfilled, forcing doctors to break into chemistry to make the drugs they need.

 

With the complexity of this new system, I fear medbay will lack a working pharmacy most rounds due to the scarcity of devoted chemists willing to both learn the new system and take the time to make medicine, rather than just play around in science’s chemistry lab (Which has no attached responsibility). And with how long it takes to make these meds, doctors won’t be able to make their own without taking time away from treating patients.

 

(Removed part that turned out to be an unfounded concern)

 

Edited March 27, 2015 by Guest

[DZD]

IPCs reacting to chems just like everyone else is temporary and subject to change. As far as TG's hate of Goonchem, keep in mind that their medical system beforehand was very simplistic, with most issues quickly solvable by a single pill, or slapping enough bandages on a wound. Our medbay staff has had to deal with significantly more complex problems than the average TG medical player due to broken bones, organ damage, ruptured lungs, and the like. Fj also has a point that a lot of the people complaining on TG are basically doing so because they do not like change.

[Somnus]

After playing around with the new system, I have to say it's worse than I expected. Making even basic medications takes quite a while, even with focused effort in gathering and mixing the reagents. With the average quality of chemist we get every round (Read:Crap) medbay's not going to get its medications most shifts, much less in enough quantity to treat the volume of patients we usually receive.

[Earthdivine]

 

Please note that a big reason for the switch to Goofchem is NOT balance, but rather, our chem is MASSIVELY out of date. Leaving it as is would cause problems down the line for any additions to chem, and our options for change is either bay chem, which would make chem EXTREMELY reliant on mining to do anything, or TG chem, ala Goofchem. Updating it to any code base will allow us to work with chemistry more now that the code base for it is updated

 

This is how I understood it from the staff chat atleast.

 

As for its complexity, it's barely been a day since the change, give people time to get used to it and figure out the quick steps to making it. Our old chems were so well known we might as well had buttons to made the chem instantly rather then having to spend the small time making it.

 

[johannhawk]

 

IPCs reacting to chems just like everyone else is temporary and subject to change.

 

just throwing stuff to hope it would stick...

 

what if IPCs had something in them that would simulate the effect of the drug on them? ...mostly booze.

 

 

anyways, what will happen to the bartender and botany and vending machines and the food and anything that puts any reagents into you?

 

Edited March 25, 2015 by Guest

[Fj45]

 

After playing around with the new system, I have to say it's worse than I expected. Making even basic medications takes quite a while, even with focused effort in gathering and mixing the reagents. With the average quality of chemist we get every round (Read:Crap) medbay's not going to get its medications most shifts, much less in enough quantity to treat the volume of patients we usually receive.

 

Considering that this entire system is from Goon, and they have very short, extremely chaotic rounds, yet chemistry works fine, this complaint stems from inexperience of the new system, not an actual issue.

 

[johannhawk]

 

After playing around with the new system, I have to say it's worse than I expected. Making even basic medications takes quite a while, even with focused effort in gathering and mixing the reagents. With the average quality of chemist we get every round (Read:Crap) medbay's not going to get its medications most shifts, much less in enough quantity to treat the volume of patients we usually receive.

 

Considering that this entire system is from Goon, and they have very short, extremely chaotic rounds, yet chemistry works fine, this complaint stems from inexperience of the new system, not an actual issue.

 

i used to be on goonstation and the last thing i was trying to learn was all the chemistry secrets before i dropped out...

 

....even some of the non secret chems more are devastating as people get more experienced

 

 

but thats what we have admins for!

 

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

The system we're using is still very split--that is to say, medbay still has access to the old chems and is still more than capable of making them if they so desire. Also...doctors and chemists alike are still used to the old system; it's going to be hectic until people learn new stuff.

 

Come later today the medkits that doctors use will be completely revamped to be in line with the newer chemicals; instead of containing kelotane pills, dexalin, etc---they'll contain patches, salbutamol, epinephrine auto-injectors, etc. This will helps *doctors* become more acquainted with some of the new chems and what they do/how they behave.

 

[Somnus]

 

After playing around with the new system, I have to say it's worse than I expected. Making even basic medications takes quite a while, even with focused effort in gathering and mixing the reagents. With the average quality of chemist we get every round (Read:Crap) medbay's not going to get its medications most shifts, much less in enough quantity to treat the volume of patients we usually receive.

 

Considering that this entire system is from Goon, and they have very short, extremely chaotic rounds, yet chemistry works fine, this complaint stems from inexperience of the new system, not an actual issue.

 

Even with the old system medbay couldn't rely on chemistry doing its job most shifts. That being said, I hope you're right; the new medications are realistic and challenging to use - playing as a doctor now should be more fun than simply popping pills to match the damage.

 

[Deanthelis]

 

I spent the entirety of a day off from work playing Medbay chemist. I refused to create any old chemicals, and only used the new ones, as though the old ones were gone already.

 

These are my thoughts based on my experiences.

 

1. Everything is done exactly the way it was before. There is one chemical for each damage type that is ideal to make - Synthflesh/Styptic patches for brute, Synthflesh/SilverSulf for burns, etc. All you have to do is make lots of those ASAP, then work on everything else in order of priority, just like before.

 

2. While what is administered to patients is for the most part just renamed shit we already had, the level of time consumption involved is staggering by comparison. Everything you need is in the chemistry room, sure - but now there are intermediate chemicals that have to be made for LITERALLY EVERYTHING. There are three machines instead of two to use, and several more steps involved in making any of the worthwhile medications.

 

3. The most efficient thing to do as a medbay chemist is to spend the first twenty minutes making intermediate ingredients and piling them up in bottles on the table. Seriously. Oil, Ash, Phenol, ammonia, diethylamine, unstable Mutagen, sulfuric acid, I'm probably missing a couple others. Then it's a matter of pouring a little of each bottle into the beaker and finishing it off with the dispenser and/or heater. However, this severely damages the response times of even a chemist that has the recipes memorized simply due to all the goddamn steps involved. Seriously, one medication has seven ingredients, four of which are intermediates. You can't just slap that together in a pinch.

 

4. Science makes meth every fucking round and then bitches and moans when medbay doesn't want to spend half it's toxin medication and mannitol on their dumb asses. Fuck you if you do this, this isn't funny, and you deserve what you get, brain damage and all.

 

Trying to play a chemist was already a headache.

Now it is just a several times worse headache.

The new chemistry isn't even provoking shitlers to sign up for the role to fuck around. All of those guys went to science (had one round where literally five of six scientists fought over the dispensers all round, and all they did was make carpet, meth, and colorful reagent smoke. Good job, not like anybody wanted rnd done or anything.). I was actually the only chemist for two of five rounds - how often does that happen at 70 population - and when I did have a partner, I only had one with any inkling of what to do, and that was only because I helped him along (which was fair. I dug through the code to learn how to do it. Most people don't have access to that.), while the others went ssd or to cryo within ten minutes.

 

This has done nothing to improve or balance medbay chemistry, as far as I can tell. It's needless complication of a job that was already complicated for new players. Once everyone learns the recipes again, it'll be "star trek meds" all over again. The gap between new and veteran players will only deepen.

 

That's not to say I don't want these changes. The framework here is excellent. I'm simply of the opinion that the medicines should all have overdose thresholds again, and that they all should have negative side effects if you use them in the wrong form, pill or patch. It'll prevent people from simply slapping on three 50u synthflesh patches and taking a dandy space walk.

 

As a side note, I found cryo was used far less. It was almost solely for cloning. Synthflesh and styptic/SilverSulf are amazing at curing serious injuries. Salbutamol is way better than dexalin. There's one really annoying to make anti radiation medicine, but you need so little because it's so powerful that it's way worth the effort - 30 toxin damage gone per 10u patch is amazing.

 

I rambled a bit. It's 11PM. I'll address any responses in the morning.

 

[Fox McCloud]

Just a quick reply; I'll be making a chemistry closet that has a lot of the intermediate chems you mentioned here (oil, phenol, diethyl, sulfuric, ammonia, and acetone) all in 50 unit bottles. This should go a LONG way towards improving the speed at which you can quickly make the chems medbay needs.

[Somnus]

 

I'd like to second Dean's point that currently the only reason a chemistry-inclined player would choose chemistry over science is to spend an extra half hour making all the medications medbay will need for a shift before having the chem dispensers to themselves. So any competent chemists can (And do) just work in science to get access to chem dispensers and all the associated fun-potential without the obligation to make medbay anything. This often leaves chemistry empty or filled with new players but for those occasional rounds where someone who cares about medbay takes the time to work as a chemist. As a result several of the rounds I've played in have had empty fridges and doctors forced to use the sleepers and stored medkits to treat patients.

 

I do apologize for assuming the new meds wouldn't work as well as the old ones in my previous posts...turns out they're just fine or even better when chemistry does get around to stocking them. It's an overall improvement to the server, except for carpet bombs and color smoke - those things are annoying everyone other than the players who make them.

 

[necaladun]

Locking in request from OP.