Can we please make self harm and suicide a bannable offense?

[Jack Fractal]

 

What it says on the tin. Unless you're in extreme circumstances, such as trapped without oxygen, or a member of the syndicate, can we make self-harm and suicide illegal? Like, actually illegal?

 

I've had a ridiculous number of prisoners try to off themselves, I now have to confiscate all criminal chaplains bibles because they WILL gib themselves on it (three this week), and I've had the same Head of Security go into the armory, strip naked, and shoot themselves in the head. They did this twice, on two separate rounds.

 

I had a round this week where the Head of Security stripped naked and shot himself (a different one this time, seems to be a habit for them), and then the detective, who he had tried to appoint as the new head of Security, ALSO shot himself.

 

The wiki says it's bannable for prisoners, but it doesn't look like it's being enforced very hard, because I see it almost every round.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

Heads of Staff shouldn't be doing this, but it's acceptable for other roles to do so.

 

Prisoner's suiciding when caught has never been codified, officially, in the rule; it was enforced by a few admins a while back, but when Para first started up until May-June of 2014, it was perfectly allowed.

 

Making suiciding "bannable" won't even resolve the issue--people will just go SSD instead--and if that becomes bannable, they'll just minimize SS13 and go do something else so it looks like they're there---there's really no way around it--as long as they're not breaking the server rules, I really don't see the big deal about prisoner's suiciding. I'd much rather see players kill themselves spectacularly (Bible gibbing will always be the absolute best) when bored than to grief the station/start going around beating people.

 

[Jack Fractal]

 

The issue isn't using the suicide verb, nor is it removing yourself from the round. SSD is quiet. I don't want people to stick around for a 25 minutes brig timer if that will bore them to tears. I wish I could RP with prisoners more, but I'm so run off my feet all the time as Warden that I really never get around to it.

 

Go SSD all you want.

 

SSD is fine, and if you're not in jail, we have Cryodorms for a reason.

 

It's the slowly beating yourself to death with your own shoes that's really unpleasant. Or smashing the light, using it to break the window, and then repeatedly electrocuting yourself on the grill. Or stripping naked and shooting yourself in the head in the sec lobby.

 

That's not 'I don't want to play anymore', that's "I want to cause the maximum amount of irritation, confusion, and frustration to everyone around me because I am an enormous asshole."

 

There is no 'in universe' way to deal with it. It creates a corpse which raise ridiculous questions ("Why is the mime dead in Cell 3?" "Oh, he beat him to death with his shoes." *ten minutes later* "Why is the mime dead in the morgue?" "Oh! He beat himself to death with his shoes!"), and the Chaplains bible creates those immobile spooky bones that you can't ever get rid of.

 

The 'prisoners are not allowed to suicide' thing may not be a rule, I don't know where those are specifically listed, but it IS on the wiki, under the section about "For the Prisoners."

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

Most of our wiki was wholesale copy-pasted from Bay, which is why some things are worded the way they are--in any event, it's been removed.

 

In either event, I still don't content killing yourself with a bulb, the Bible, or any other form is "grief" or "being an asshole"---"suicide by security" (ie: forcing them to kill you because of how hostile you are)? Yeah, that's griefing, but gibbing yourself/holding your breath, or burn your hands off with a light is just another way of taking yourself out of the round---again--if it's command staff doing this, report them as they ARE held to a higher standard--if not, then that's their own choice.

 

I'd also rather not set the precedent for "well, he's killing himself, he's a traitor", as well, since that'll end up being the only people who are allowed to do it under a "suicide is bannable" regime.

 

 

Just leave the Alissa Bennet's of the station alone =p

 

[Fj45]

 

Just leave the Alissa Bennet's of the station alone =p

 

Who the hell is that?

 

[Jack Fractal]

 

I'm not sure if I'm communicating the situation clearly.

 

Someone who strips themselves naked, and then slowly, over literally ten minutes, beats themselves to death with their own fists while screaming repeatedly over the radio...

 

That isn't grief?

 

And, on the flip side, what is gained by allowing that to happen? How does that in any way improve the community? Why are self mutilating naked prisoners cutting off their own limbs with shards of glass while yelling profanities, a good thing?

 

I don't know about the rest of the people who play security, but I would much rather deal with a traitor or a changeling then someone doing this. At least if I get dunked it's over. It doesn't drag on for half the round.

 

I am completely baffled by this perspective. How is the correct response to this, 'lets remove the restriction from the wiki'? Am I missing some vital piece of information here?

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

Just leave the Alissa Bennet's of the station alone =p

 

Who the hell is that?

 

Long time player---at one time known for picking some new creative suicide method every single shift.

 

Her flavortext, for a while, was "She is susceptible to suicide"

 

[Dumbdumn5]

Oh believe me, she does a lot more than just self harm and suicide... One time she played chef and we stuck together for the shift as usual. By the end she was obsessed with blood, stripped herself of everything but a chef's hat and knife, and began gibbing chickens, pigs, betsy, and a variety of other things while rolling in the blood... it was glorious.

[DeletedUser]

I feel like a lot of this would be resolved if we added some sort of cryodorms for the prisoners.

[Dumbdumn5]

 

I feel like a lot of this would be resolved if we added some sort of cryodorms for the prisoners.

That'd be good, and to avoid people missing out on round time, have a ding sound or maybe a bwoink if the client is still connected?

 

[davidchan]

 

On the topic of Brig timers and SSDs, I feel like our brig needs something of an overhaul or change.

 

Phoenix (before they started eated the glue and paint chips) had an interesting layout in that their brig cells had a back door that the Warden/Sec Guards could open that would open a tunnel. Following the tunnel would lead them to the 'yard', which isn't far off from what our permawing is now. They could access Newsfeeds, play games or do a little botany with a small selection of edible seeds. It removed them from the crew and at the same time gave them something to do aside from sit in a 3x3 cell. Of the few times I've been brigged, I can only say a handful of them were even justified, and I only got more upset as I was forced to sit in the brig for 20 minutes on false or trumped up charges.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

A yard would be a beautiful addition. I can make a goal to get all the tiles in the yard covered in toys. Perma was already done a month ago.

[veganzombeh]

 

On the topic of Brig timers and SSDs, I feel like our brig needs something of an overhaul or change.

 

Phoenix (before they started eated the glue and paint chips) had an interesting layout in that their brig cells had a back door that the Warden/Sec Guards could open that would open a tunnel. Following the tunnel would lead them to the 'yard', which isn't far off from what our permawing is now. They could access Newsfeeds, play games or do a little botany with a small selection of edible seeds. It removed them from the crew and at the same time gave them something to do aside from sit in a 3x3 cell. Of the few times I've been brigged, I can only say a handful of them were even justified, and I only got more upset as I was forced to sit in the brig for 20 minutes on false or trumped up charges.

That was the best brig map design I've ever seen. It even had a little visitors booth. It would definitely make the brig much more tolerable for people prone to SSD and suicide.

 

[CrAzYPiLoT]

Not enough cryoxadone in the world.

[Fox McCloud]

 

I feel like a lot of this would be resolved if we added some sort of cryodorms for the prisoners.

 

Problem with this is people will specifically use cyrodorms as a way to cap sentences to 15 minutes.

 

Got brigged for longer than 15 minutes? No problem; just cryodorm yourself and respawn as something else--especially if you're Pubbie McAssistant.

 

[block1]

I'm pretty sure if suicide was made bannable than lot's of people would just plain leave, this isn't concentration camp 13 y'know.

[Jack Fractal]

 

On the topic of Brig timers and SSDs, I feel like our brig needs something of an overhaul or change.

 

/agree

 

It's not particularly functional now, and it's a bore for prisoners. I love the idea of a main cell you toss people in, but you'd need to modify prisoner processing works.

 

Hmm!

 

Ideas...

 

I'm pretty sure if suicide was made bannable than lot's of people would just plain leave, this isn't concentration camp 13 y'know.

 

Leave as in SSD? Yeah, probably. I know I've been tempted the few times I've ended up in jail.

 

Jail is boring. That's a problem, but it's a separate problem then this one.

 

SSD isn't a problem though. It's quiet, it doesn't leave confusing corpses, it doesn't irritate everyone around you, and we've all pretty much figured out how to deal with it in character.

 

I feel like a lot of this would be resolved if we added some sort of cryodorms for the prisoners.

 

Problem with this is people will specifically use cyrodorms as a way to cap sentences to 15 minutes.

 

Got brigged for longer than 15 minutes? No problem; just cryodorm yourself and respawn as something else--especially if you're Pubbie McAssistant.

 

Bay has Cryodorms only in permabrig.

 

I don't think this would be as much of an issue though, even if it were an option for non-perma prisoners.

 

I don't really like long brig sentences. It's dreadfully dull for the prisoners. Getting dunked for a long time (Like, say, resisting arrest (5 minutes) after getting caught stealing (10 minutes) something in a secure area (15 minutes) with a weapon (10 minutes))and then opting out like that? Makes sense. You can come back into the round and do something else.

 

Of course, coming back into the round and doing exactly the same thing again... yeah ok. I could see some people doing that, but they'll just get dunked again, and while they're in cryo they're:

 

 

• quiet

• not taking up a cell

not taking up a job slot

not bleeding all over the place

not screaming over the radio

not destroying the brig

not constantly trying to escape

 

 

These are all bonuses in my book.

 

Good for prisoners, good for jailors, good for everyone.

 

So far the only argument I've heard for allowing suicide is "There was one person once who had a cool character built around inventive suicide," and fair enough. I never played with her, maybe she was awesome, but this is an omnipresent problem. This isn't something that happens once a week, this happens multiple times a round.

 

If it's a bridge too far to have suicide be a bannable offence, can we at least make it a sign of major mental illness in game, and have standard procedure be to lock them in a cryo-chamber so that they can be sent to a proper mental health facility at Centcom?

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

Leave as in SSD? Yeah, probably. I know I've been tempted the few times I've ended up in jail.

 

Jail is boring. That's a problem, but it's a separate problem then this one.

 

SSD isn't a problem though. It's quiet, it doesn't leave confusing corpses, it doesn't irritate everyone around you, and we've all pretty much figured out how to deal with it in character.

 

And the same can be done with suicide; autopsy reports will make it quite clear how they died and at what time--not to mention that sec officers generally aren't known for beating players to death (and if they do, that's an administrative matter, not really an IC one that player should be handling). If players want to end their life spectacularly instead of going SSD, there's really no problem with this--going SSD is just as "bad" as committing suicide; they're abruptly removing themselves from the round---both create additional "work" for the players that are still in the game, and both have clearly defined paths of what to do (morgue/cryodorms).

 

 

Bay has Cryodorms only in permabrig. .

 

Yes, especially the clever traitors who will eventually come to abuse this; just hide some of your stuff beforehand, and if you get caught, then just cryo, come back, grab your old gear and pick up where you left off. Don't underestimate the cleverness of players. We're not Bay, we never will be--this isn't a heavy RP server. As such, we have to design certain experiences to be a bit different because if it can be abused it will be abused.

 

If it's a bridge too far to have suicide be a bannable offence, can we at least make it a sign of major mental illness in game, and have standard procedure be to lock them in a cryo-chamber so that they can be sent to a proper mental health facility at Centcom?

 

Attempted suicide = permabrig? Sorry, no.

 

[Jack Fractal]

 

It's not permabrig, it's "You're out for fifteen minutes".

 

Also, you're trying to commit suicide... so your goals are pretty clear there. You want to leave the round. This would just speed up the process. If you don't want to leave the round then you are, by definition, griefing, and you should be banned.

 

The infrastructure of the station is not equipped to handle the violently insane. Slow self-suicide is not something reasonable people do, and it's not something that can be prevented. Letting people slowly murder themselves is against any level of RP. If this were a no-rp server, that'd be fine, but someone slowly slitting their own wrists while wailing about it over public coms is awful to watch, and worse to try to prevent.

 

I can't emphasize enough, people who do this ruin the round for people forced to interact with them.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

It's not permabrig, it's "You're out for fifteen minutes".

 

Forcing someone to exit the round (or stay in the room they're in forever) isn't much better--not to mention they could/can/will just come back and do the same thing they originally were going to do if they're bound and determined to do it.

 

Also, you're trying to commit suicide... so your goals are pretty clear there. You want to leave the round. This would just speed up the process. If you don't want to leave the round then you are, by definition, griefing, and you should be banned.

 

The infrastructure of the station is not equipped to handle the violently insane. Slow self-suicide is not something reasonable people do, and it's not something that can be prevented. Letting people slowly murder themselves is against any level of RP. If this were a no-rp server, that'd be fine, but someone slowly slitting their own wrists while wailing about it over public coms is awful to watch, and worse to try to prevent.

 

Insanity with self-harm is completely allowed here--if it results in self-harm, that's fine--it's when you start attacking other players that the issue comes in. Under this same logic, someone who's drunk could be put under this same category because it's "awful to watch" and there's virtually no way of preventing them from engaging in it as well--likewise with emoting vaguely mean things--the list goes on. All of these have been and will be continued to be acceptable here---even if your view is that we're now "light RP" these were still allowed back in the day when we were medium RP and even when we were modeate-heavy RP when we *very* first started.

 

Again, if the idea/concept of suicide personally bothers you, or you don't like it, I more than understand, but from a rule-based perspective, it's 100% FULLY legal/within the rules and has almost always been. Some people don't like clowns or , and that's fine, but within the context of server rules...

 

I can't emphasize enough, people who do this ruin the round for people forced to interact with them.

 

No,i t doesn't. They're killing themselves, and you can deliver them to the morgue or chaplain--just like you deliver people to cryodorms who go SSD. No one's round is ruined, no one is hurt, no one is insulted, no one is damaging the station, etc--they're ending their own life; if that bothers you on some personal, that's fine, but it's not something we've banned for in the past, and aside from a summer stint, we haven't banned prisoners for either---if people want to do it, they're free to do so, but they're most definitely NOT griefing.

 

[Jack Fractal]

 

RE: Forced Cryo.

 

Did you read my list? That's why.

 

They can pick up where they left off, yes, but while they're out, they're actually out.

 

RE: You should just let them do it

 

If it's absolutely vital that suicide be available at all time to all players with no repercussions either in game or out of game (a stance I find baffling but whatever), then you need to clarify that, both in the rules of the server, and the rules of the station.

 

I suggest a proviso in Space Law. Something like "Security is not responsible for the health or welfare of prisoners in any way. Should they try to hurt themselves, Security is under no obligation of any kind to assist them or to provide medical attention."

 

That would work.

 

RE: It being within the rules

 

Fine, that's why I'm asking for the rules to be changed. That's what this whole thread is about.

 

RE: It not being a burden.

 

You seem to be missing the part where I mentioned the prolonged time-frame under which these self-harm incidents often take place. Your repeated statement's that you can just take them to the morgue or the Chaplain are not accurate.

 

This is not "Goodbye cruel world! *stab* *stab* *stab* Bleurgh!"

 

That's dumb, but at least it's over quickly.

 

This is between ten and forty minutes of someone hurting themselves, begging for attention, screaming for help over the radio, fielding calls from concerned station crew about security murdering people, getting them healed, getting them surgery, them hurting themselves again, more screaming, more radio chatter, more screaming, escape attempts, attempts to dismember themselves, attacks on the brig physician, demands for a lawyer, attacks on the lawyer, and on and on and on.

 

Like I said, this isn't "I don't want to play anymore," it's "I want to torture the people around me by making an absolute ass of myself in every way I can."

 

If you don't consider that grief, I tremble to imagine the kind of things that actually make your list.

 

RE: The Point

 

Is there anything gained by this being allowed, in game or out of game?

 

Nobody's answered that question.

 

You've just said it's allowed, not why it's allowed. Is there some amazing reason I'm missing? Have I somehow missed out on the great secret of repeatedly electrocuting yourself and attacking the people who try to heal you? Is this some part of the game I've missed?

 

I feel left out.

 

Please explain.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

Someone wants to suicide in the brig?

Good riddance. One less idiot to deal with.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

I suggest a proviso in Space Law. Something like "Security is not responsible for the health or welfare of prisoners in any way. Should they try to hurt themselves, Security is under no obligation of any kind to assist them or to provide medical attention."

 

That's already the case; same with medical staff--if you're chopping your head off in medbay lobby the doctors are under NO obligation to treat you. Security DOES have to treat you from any harm they may have done or encountered that's not self-inflicted, however.

 

Fine, that's why I'm asking for the rules to be changed. That's what this whole thread is about.

 

And it's not going to be; this isn't something that's ever really been brought up as a "problem", and you're literally the first person in over 8 months to be appalled/disgusted/dislike the rule.

 

You seem to be missing the part where I mentioned the prolonged time-frame under which these self-harm incidents often take place..

 

If they're attacking other people in their quest to achieve peace with the universe, then that IS something you can report for---but ending their own life? Again, sorry, no. The doctors can refuse to treat them, they CAN be taken to the morgue when they are finally dead, etc. The lengthy suicides can be dealt with ICly--but that's not what you originally brought up (you specifically mentioned lightbulbs, glass shards, and Bible gibbings).

 

 

Is there anything gained by this being allowed, in game or out of game?

 

Nobody's answered that question.

 

You've just said it's allowed, not why it's allowed. Is there some amazing reason I'm missing? Have I somehow missed out on the great secret of repeatedly electrocuting yourself and attacking the people who try to heal you? Is this some part of the game I've missed?

 

The point is it gives players a way to relieve stress, exit the game, or otherwise inflict harm without breaking the server rules. You're also conflating two separate issues here; if people are attacking the people trying to heal them (beyond disarming), then that IS an issue that can be reported (the attacking). Those who just attack themselves to be attacking themselves (for whatever reason) and don't hurt others? That's more than fine.

 

What's the point of end of round grief? It serves no purpose, creates havoc, chaos, etc----and ICly--it doesn't really have a purpose and IS completely illogical. It's meant as a a fun little way to relieve stress and let some players have an outlet for more violent behaviors legitimately.

 

I feel left out.

 

Please explain.

 

Probably because you're literally the only person to ever complain about this in over 8 months and no one explicitly takes issue with it. The few times it came up prior to that it was mostly security being upset about people "evading sentences" rather than the cleanup of the suicide itself.

 

[Jack Fractal]

 

So, to be clear, in order to allow people to relieve stress through in-game suicide, you're opposed to criminalizing graphic self-harm in-game or out of game?

 

All right.

 

Are you speaking for the entire administrative team when you tell me that there is no chance of this happening?

 

Also if security is supposed to ignore self harm, could you point me to the section of the wiki that explains that? I'd like to have a link handy the next time that a brig physician/lawyer/captain/IAA/Magistrate gets upset about that.

 

Thanks.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

So, to be clear, in order to allow people to relieve stress through in-game suicide, you're opposed to criminalizing graphic self-harm in-game or out of game?

 

My larger point was there's a lot of "pointless" things in SS13--some are there for gimmicks, some for gags, others to relieve stress, and others yet, fun--suiciding generally falls in multiple places here: a lot of suicides with particular items are deliberately melodramatic, unrealistic, and intentionally hilarious "John McPubbie stamps his head with 'DENIED' and promptly falls dead!") .

 

Are you speaking for the entire administrative team when you tell me that there is no chance of this happening?

 

I don't speak for them, but I'm familiar enough with our policy and the general server direction that I feel confident to speak about this matter. The chance of suicide being bannable is quite low.

 

Also if security is supposed to ignore self harm, could you point me to the section of the wiki that explains that? I'd like to have a link handy the next time that a brig physician/lawyer/captain/IAA/Magistrate gets upset about that.

 

Thanks.

 

It's not explicitly stated anywhere is why; IAA is largely an RP job, so they're going to ding people for not following things to a T because they have nothing--mechanically, to do, IC--ie cargo techs ordering stuff for themselves that isn't illegal (like pizza) may not be punishable by space law or against the server rules, but it's still technically something they could pursue if they really wanted to.