DeletedUser Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 The current stamina damage thing should be modified to be the single tasing method. Pretty much, fuck super-conveniently-universal hybrid tasers. Tasers should be a situational tool, not a weapon of choice. Keep the hybric ones as a hi-tech RnD protolathe craft if you want. Git gud with bad weapons or gtfo, just like a proper guardsman does. Toss the girly pew-pewer away, grow a pair of steel, grip the power-baton with your blood-stained hand and charge onwards to death or victory, but regardless to glory. And if someone cries about "OMG MUH BALANS ANTAGS WILL BE OP" he will get a copy-pasted wall of text stamped onto the forehead. I will keep poking coders until this gets a PR, Gorkdamnit. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealistik Posted May 26, 2015 Author Posted May 26, 2015 Meanwhile Vulpincanines... I'd be willing to give this a look over; no promises though, I literally just started coding. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
necaladun Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 I'd just like to say - this isn't about instastun. It's about tazers. Because there are a LOT of ways to instastun people without a tazer. Off the top of my head: Cult stun paper Shotgun stun shells Various Wiz spells - Magic Missile/Weaken Prolly something ninjas can do/did. Vampire glare And I'm sure many more. I'm not saying that it's not ok to discuss or anything, but don't confuse the idea of "instastun" with security having access to it. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealistik Posted May 26, 2015 Author Posted May 26, 2015 Is it about tazers exclusively? I was referring to most forms of winbutton haha u ded and I winrar instastun bullshit. That's not to say there isn't any form of instastun that's warranted, but I hate the concept as a rule. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeletedUser Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Personally I was talking about tasers all the time, which seems to be the most controversial insta-stun for many reasons. The other insta-stuns are very limited and mostly antag-exclusive, and are widely accepted among the community. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealistik Posted May 26, 2015 Author Posted May 26, 2015 There's lots of stuff that's antag exclusive and complete bullshit, like say emags in their current implementation. TBH though I'd be willing to acquiesce on this point to Sec veterans who have more first hand experience with antag instastuns. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
improvedname Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Personally I was talking about tasers all the time, which seems to be the most controversial insta-stun for many reasons. The other insta-stuns are very limited and mostly antag-exclusive, and are widely accepted among the community. >shotguns>limited Since shotguns shells can be infused with chemicals (the ones from rnd) You could just put nuerotoxin inside it for a cheap strong And then stack the affect Or you could burn the person Or buckshot them Or special stun cells etc Just the shells can accept every chemical EDIT:not to forget combat shotguns can be ordered which are 8 shots Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Security insta-stuns would need to be removed...and then antag insta-stuns would need to be looked at and either removed or balanced, then the same process would need to be done for more obscure insta-stun methods, and any chemicals that involve stuns, ect ect ect and then you get somewhere with balance. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
necaladun Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 There's also - the detective revolver, flashbangs, and pushing people onto a bananapeel. Replacing instastun is a -much- bigger task than simply getting rid of tazers. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacemanspark Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Flashbangs are fine as instastun. They had limited uses, and there are simple ways to block it. Bananapeels were also just fine. They aren't as easy to use, and could easily be stolen. And they weren't ranged. Detective's revolver used to use halloss, and I'm fairly sure it could use stamina. Another thing- why did we add pushing people over back? Great, have two or three people using disarm on one person, they'll NEVER get up. I shit you not. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 There's also - the detective revolver, flashbangs, and pushing people onto a bananapeel. Replacing instastun is a -much- bigger task than simply getting rid of tazers. Aye, completely agree, that was the point of my post. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomzy Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Gotta say I'm not a fan of pushing or instastun/stamina tazers in one. Other instastuns are fine tho imo. If you want to argue further, ask not why instastun is bad/good, but why stamina only is bad. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Sure. Why is stamina only bad? Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthdivine Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Sure. Why is stamina only bad? Immediately what comes to mind is "Ping is king". Anyone remotely lagging won't ever win against someone who has better ping and better chances of dodging from it. While that is true on Live, atleast it lets the players deal with those people getting that ONE shot off. Quite frankly, I don't know what this argument is about anymore. It's always back to tasers. Always about tasers. Sec has always had a multitude of instant stun options to them, stun batons, flashes, pepper spray, Beepsky. Tasers are utterly worthless right now outside of catching people starting small fights or self antagonizing and not having anything to deal with it. Try using it on an antag and you got someone with the equipment to actually deal with it. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 But...thats the flaw with ALL combat in SS13. Very often it just comes down to whoever has the better ping. Hell, isn't that even more of a problem with insta-tasers? Single hit and you loose. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealistik Posted May 27, 2015 Author Posted May 27, 2015 Hell, isn't that even more of a problem with insta-tasers? Single hit and you loose. Yes. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30470 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeletedUser Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 It keeps going back to tasers for a number of reasons. Most of the insta-stuns mentioned there have some obvious and critical downsides. Banana peels/soaps can be easily stolen, used against you or your own clumsiness might make it backfire on you. They are also not so easy to get and can be blocked with magboots or galoshes. Flashbangs can be partially countered with easily obtainable gear, and they can also easily backfire on the user, they can also be dodged with relative ease if you run out of range fast enough. They are also limited and you lose them after using them. (Although it is also true that with the old tasers, many officers used flashbangs as their weapon of choice to make arrests, even against single targets. But this wasnt so bad because if the target ran away fast enough, or just had his eyes protected with sunglasses/helmet the officer would achieve nothing.) Pushing is RNG based, and requires you to get into melee range, putting yourself at risk until the magical number is rolled. Tasers have none of that (though I heard they have a small chance to fail, not sure about that). All you have to do is click ONCE fast enough on the sprite of your target with a clear line of sight and recharge them from time to time. They are avaiable to all security personel and will never backfire unless stolen, which isn't easy because the officer will protect it with his life if needed. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealistik Posted May 27, 2015 Author Posted May 27, 2015 Flashbangs can normally be cooked so there's no opportunity to run from them; this + massive AoE instastun is why they're easily one of the most powerful validhunt items in the game. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Ok sure, maybe flashbangs can be abused. So then we go and rebalance them to not have those issues. Nobody here is saying "Remove all insta-stun now nothing else will have to be rebalanced." Removing insta-stun properly will be a long coding job, and something that requires a good deal of balance. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeletedUser Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Also I think someone mentioned nerfing antag stuns. Wall of text to the forehead as promissed. *WHUMP* In my honest opinion? Antags aren't scary. They aren't fun anymore. They feel to exist only for the crew to do something about them. Security has their instant stun tasers, their long range disablers, their melee stun batons to catch them now. The crew got quality of life improvements with the new crew monitor, the portable crew monitor. Disarm intent is the king of combat, making weapons useless, and god help you if you get pushed, because Harm intent stamina damage means your staying down. The AI can examine anyone to see what they have, making the major strength of the cult massively useless. AI can set security status whenever it feels like with its HUD. All command have telebatons, meaning you can't prepare to take down a command staff anymore since nothing blocks it other then the Riot Shield. I don't think I need to go on. Meanwhile, antags got left in the dust, or even outright gutted in some cases, such as the Vox Raider ship barely having anything on it to trade when it was still Traders, and now as Raiders they got nothing to break into the ship. They have been getting some love, but compare the very small additions they get compared to that list. Not to mention certain events are gone, such as the Blackout, which was INCREDIBLE help for any antag. I hate playing as an antag, but I keep doing it to learn whats wrong with them, analyze why that is, and how I can help fix this. The paranoia of the crew along with how POWERFUL they have gotten means that they can do what they want when they want. I barely see anyone outside of Medbay actually do their jobs because there's no point anymore. Engineer's barely need to fix anything anymore, just slap on that foam gear and plug the hole. Cargo is....still cargo. I see the AI do more security work then security. I played the detective the other day and I felt USELESS, because the "cases" got solved before I could even get to the crimes because the AI or crew caught the guy for me. Just so you keep that in mind before starting to nerf everything to "balance" the taser rework, if it happens. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacemanspark Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/1174 Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPI Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Instastun does not mean win. Its great for ranged disarm. To give ya a better chance alone. Ans most officers are alone unless they call for backup. Problem with instastun is friendly fire when you are not alone. Might have seen this against nukeops. Lasering the ops whops ntrep is dead lol. also remember there are several chems for stun reduction. Nuke ops on meth = stationed nuked. Just read the comments on the pr. It covers everything. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealistik Posted May 27, 2015 Author Posted May 27, 2015 Instastun does pretty much mean win in the vast majority of cases assuming a competent user, and you're not outnumbered (unless flashbangs are involved). Obviously if anti-stun chems are too accessible, their accessibility should be reduced. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPI Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 This is why you always get a securitron, ans every way to avoid it, ling, wiz, vamp and so on is basically go lethal fast. The disablee ia more used, overall more efficient. But it is the choicethat decides it in the end Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fj45 Posted May 28, 2015 Posted May 28, 2015 Ok so then we balance the security bots (they have been very, very broken for a long time). All the views for having insta-stun seem to just be "well (insert thing that involves/uses insta-stun here) would make it unbalanced." Nobody disagrees with that, every single one of those things needs to be found and balanced. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/4315-replace-instastun-with-stamina-damage/page/2/#findComment-30534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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