Tietovallu's complaint against Xilia

[Tietovallu]

 

Admin Key:Xilia

 

Complaint: First, here's a list of things I did wrong.

-Absorbed SSD people as a changeling. This was my fault, I didn't realize that antags couldn't interfere with SSD bodies as well.

-Called the admin in question shitty for not being able to explain himself. even if i'm right, this was improper. I'm sorry for insulting the admin.

 

Now, to the complaint.

Basically what happened was it was a changeling round and I coerced an assistant, Max Wiley, into helping me because I spared him after absorbing the clown. He helped me kill and absorb multiple people throughout the round. At one point, I was absorbing a guy in cryo. Max was guarding the door outside to make sure nobody came in. After absorbing the two people in cryo I hid them in the barber shop when security apprehended me. Max tried to help me but got frozen by Xilia. After asking why he froze the guy helping me, he said I broke the no self antagging rule because, since I basically turned the assistant into an antagonist through my coercion, I was now responsible for everything that assistant did. This is a ridiculous interpretation, when I Asked him to cite which line in that rule justified that interpretation he said "Because I'm an admin and I say so." Because of this I called him a shitty admin which I deeply regret. He then permabanned me.

 

I do not think the admin in question handled this properly. He was not able to justify his interpretation of the rule and because of him freezing the guy helping me, I was taken to jail and had my round as an antag ended. I also think the permaban for calling him a shitty admin is too harsh especially when he was quite frankly not carrying out his duties properly.

 

[Katsukai]

Did you tell the assistant you we're a changeling and you need help? If not I think it's more of an IC issue, since how can the assistant know the person is evil or good unless he witnessed you doing something bad.

[Tietovallu]

I didn't tell him but he clearly saw me absorb someone after he got in a fight with the clown. When he did I said I was going to kill him if he talked. I don't remember the exact time since i didn't save the logs but right after we both killed the quartermaster I said I needed his help to absorb a few more people and that I'd "let him go" if he cooperated. Even if he shouldn't have been doing that I don't see how I'm at fault and quite frankly since I was relying on him, freezing him was inappropriate. If he was really at fault the admin could've at least waited until we were away from sec before telling me the assistant could no longer help me and freezing him in the process. I was doing this the entire round and was never notified it was against the rules until we were in the heat of being chased.

[Regen]

 

It is true that freezing should be of a last resort, as it breaks gameplay completely, however I do need to point out a few things.

 

First, the "I am an admin and I say so" is a legit rule, if you look at rule 1. it is our service that we provide for our players for free, it is our server thus it is we who says who gets to play and who does not.

 

Secondly, your companion and you don't really fit the story my logs tells me, I can see you two beating up the clown, not having said a word to each other, very coordinated as well.

This, along with the coordination versus communication leads me to think that you were using out of game methods of communication, as well as you not coercing him to do anything, he simply just joined you.

Your friend, the assistant gets warned after you kill your second victim Hugh Norton, about possible metagaming and self-antagging. Now you are not responsible for his actions, but just to have that noted.

 

Thirdly, i see that after some time of playing, you find yourself in the cryodorms absorbing SSD people, it is in clear violation of our rules to do so.

 

Here we have the logs of where you call him a shitty admin

[11:15:42]ADMIN: PM: Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher)->Xilia/(): is retarded and you're a shitty admin for not giving a proper jsutification. I'll be filing a complaint

By the rules he actually did have propper justification to ban both of you, I will explain why in a second.

[11:16:37]ADMIN: PM: Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher)->Xilia/(): you deliberately intervened and caused me to get caught based on a faulty rule

I don't really see what part of the rule is faulty, not touching SSD's seems pretty straight forward to me, and for the metagaming rule, well.

 

When it comes to the metagaming rule it is to stop people from using out of game advantages, this means that we can not allow people getting civilians to help them because they spared them, simply because it is so easy to exploit. This is why the self-antaging rule exist.

If you are in doubt of the rules you are urged to adminhelp it, not try to push the rule and see what happens, because in most cases you end up banned.

 

Lastly, we handle things a bit differently on Paradise regarding bans, we will permaban for far less than what you'd expect on other servers, but we also unban far easier, why?

We want you to explain your actions and and self reflect on why you'd break the rules. So when we permaban you, we force you to make an appeal showing that you've learned, if we put a timed ban, people would simply wait it out and come back, just to do the same mistake again.

 

[Tietovallu]

 

I have no clue why he joined me in killing the clown. To be honest I think he might've just been looking for an excuse to kill people, but I was definitely not metagaming. I'll admit that the process of coercion is faulty - it is clear he wanted to help an antag rather than play properly, but I still coerced him nonetheless. I repeatedly gave him implied threats. I take this metagaming accusation very seriously since that's like the #1 sin of SS13. I did not metagame.

 

I already admitted I fucked up for absorbing the SSD people and insulting the admin so I won't respond to it again.

 

My issue with the admin's actions is that he said I was self-antagging but this is patently not true. Nowhere in the rules does it say that players antags coerce are somehow responsible for their actions. With this justification he ended my round by freezing someone I was relying upon. I don't know why he felt the need to freeze right then and there since the only thing he was doing was helping me escape. It might be true if I was metagaming, but I wasn't. I guess if you're dead set on thinking I meta gamed then I really can't prove otherwise since I don't have access to the logs.

 

I understand your banning/appeal system now, so I won't make the argument that it was too harsh. Still, I think the admin abused his power to interpret the rules to get rid of me.

 

[Xilia]

 

Hey there. First of all of course a thank you for posting on our forums.

 

It took some time since I have had to dig out all the logs regarding this matter.

 

Regens already gave good points.

 

But let me take the logs to show what went on

 

[09:55:20]ACCESS: Login: Vicempon/(Max Bailey) from -3557298363 || BYOND v506

[09:55:21]ACCESS: Login: Tietovallu/(Cohen Lombardi) from -1879897372 || BYOND v506

 

--- Round starts

 

[09:56:51]ATTACK: Cohen Lombardi(tietovallu) attacked Honk McSlips(wispx) with mechanical toolbox(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYE: BRUTE)

[09:56:52]ATTACK: Max Bailey(vicempon) attacked Honk McSlips(wispx) with mechanical toolbox(INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYE: BRUTE)

 

---Haven't said anything towards eachother prior to this attack ^ although a very coordinated attack (1 second between both of them starting) Also both of them attacking the clown after less then 2 minutes in game

 

Max Wiley, into helping me because I spared him after absorbing the clown.

 

---These attack logs go for a good while. Clown is dead.

 

[09:57:10]SAY: Cohen Lombardi/Tietovallu : Yo

[09:57:15]SAY: Cohen Lombardi/Tietovallu : Watch the door

[09:57:16]SAY: Max Bailey/Vicempon : Hey dude

 

---Cohen absorbs Honk

 

[09:59:23]SAY: Cohen Lombardi/Tietovallu : Hey

[09:59:29]SAY: Max Bailey/Vicempon : Hey buddy

 

--- silence while they both move towards their next victim

 

^ This is not being coerced in any way as you told me to. And this alone already suggests the out of game chat. And its only the tip of the iceberg.

This goes for almost the entire round. With you not saying much to him or visa versa. Like almost nothing

 

 

 

 

Now on to what happend when i came on

 

I saw you eating an SSD.Which wasn't allowed

I acted

[11:06:42]ADMIN: PM: Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra)->Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher): what are you doing? SSD people are not to be touched unless admins allow so

[11:06:51]ADMIN: PM: Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher)->Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra): Completing my objectives?

[11:07:31]ADMIN: PM: Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra)->Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher): still not allowed

[11:07:43]ADMIN: PM: Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher)->Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra): Why d id you freeze the guy helping me?

 

I froze him since he was actually breaking the rules at that point. To prevent further damage with him breaking the rules.

After he was dragging you away when a security officer saw you on a husk and tasered you. I froze him. Which resulted in you getting caught. What was supposed to happen since he wasn't suppose to help you.

 

[11:12:10]ADMIN: PM: Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra)->Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher): he was helping you unlegit

[11:12:22]ADMIN: PM: Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher)->Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra): i coerced him into helping me, how is that not elgit

 

Pointing the logs on top. Yes, that is not legitly coerced and at that point we already suspected it to be such. It seemingly is so that I have to repeat myselfy to you often and say it again. Self-antagging is not okay. in rare cases coerce can be achieved if the admins allow it.

 

But it doesn't matter much to you since you weren't self-antagging.

 

[11:13:25]ADMIN: PM: Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher)->Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra): show me where threatening an assistant with physical violence is self antagging because it doesnt say that in the rules <--- still explained as above. except this never happend as such. He helped you a long way before, killing already plenty of guys, you gave this whisper;

 

[10:57:20]WHISPER: Derek Gallagher/Tietovallu : Help me absorb three more, then we need to steal this guy's brain. Then i'll let you go.

^ an hour in game playing together. First real thing you said to him

 

[11:13:34]ADMIN: PM: Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra)->Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher): no, that means you take the fault for making the assastant antag

 

Shame on me. This is ofc not something that would have happend. You do NOT take fault for someone else self-antagging. Also not why you are banned for.

 

[11:14:04]ADMIN: PM: Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher)->Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra): Cite me the line that says it does

I referred you to rule 7 for this. yet you simply went on to discuss this for reason that it doesn't say it in letter.

It is kind of impossible to write every possible scenario down in our rules. And maybe even harder to read and understand it if it was so.

that is why we have rule 1 and.. common sense. Even in rule 7 there is a line that describes your problem.

 

While there is no absolute way to be clear what is and isn't self antagging, as always, if in doubt, adminhelp, and if an admin tells you to desist, do so at once.

 

[11:14:05]ADMIN: PM: Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra)->Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher): because I say it is self-antagging

 

Well, it is very blunt. But I was honestly tired of this. If every time get a penny when I would need to explain why we don't have those millions lines of scenarios and that rule 1 applies. I would be a millionaire. So I apologies if this felt like the 'hungry-poweredadminadbuuz' But it really isn't. Rule one covers most of our needs on this. We also rely on the common sense of the players themselves. Else we get situations like this.

 

[11:14:49]ADMIN: PM: Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher)->Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra): That

[11:15:42]ADMIN: PM: Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher)->Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra): is retarded and you're a shitty admin for not giving a proper jsutification. I'll be filing a complaint

[11:16:01]ADMIN: PM: Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra)->Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher): i'm a shitty admin?

[11:16:07]ADMIN: PM: Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher)->Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra): You can't cite the rules

[11:16:12]ADMIN: PM: Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher)->Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra): you just say :Because i say so

[11:16:19]ADMIN: PM: Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher)->Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra): nothing in the rules says the admisn can just make stuff up

[11:16:26]ADMIN: PM: Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher)->Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra): this isnt archangel

[11:16:37]ADMIN: PM: Tietovallu/(Derek Gallagher)->Xilia/(Azrael Von Ezra): you deliberately intervened and caused me to get caught based on a faulty rule

 

 

This got you banned. I don't have to explain (i hope) how hostile this is and bad attitude towards an admin who was activly pm'ing regarding the problem. In a hope it figures out. You would be suprised how often you can get away if you just say; 'Ah alright. I'm sorry. Didn't know that. It won't happen again.'

of course if you don't have a good list of notes or bans on your name with similar problems.

 

Your buddy would have gotten away if he didn't went on the same route too.

 

Also adding what you said to me afterwards on byond PM

When we ban someone it has the purpose of having the regarding player come to the forums where we are free of distractions that happens in game. in order to get the details on the problem. I told you multiple times to post it on the forums. But you went on about it

 

 

Blocked you to prevent more escalation where you would regret more things you said

 

Not really acceptable though

 

Your attitude has been the biggest problem in this case. Discussing and even insulting when someone else disagrees.

 

Again made me tired of it.

 

We can pm all we want but if you refuse to accept an admins stand of point and insults him for that. You get banned. Especially for the insulting.

 

Making it clear ; you do not get fault for the self-antagging if the other guy.

But trying to defend the guys behavior when I stopped him went wrong. Hostile behavior when I was explaining that coercing like that is not allowed and refusing to accept this. leaded to this ban

 

 

i hope this clears up many things

 

[Tietovallu]

 

Okay, thank you for clearing that up. I see it from your point of view now, however I maintain I was still not metafriending. I was also sending PDA messages to him, you might've missed those too.

 

Should I bother writing a ban appeal? If you think i'm metafriending then that seems like it's a big problem. I'd like to close the complaint against this admin.

 

[necaladun]

 

You were both on the same IP?

 

No, you weren't. And I shouldn't do these before I've had my coffee.