New Rule - Validhunting

[thebeoni]

I think we really should add rule that forbids validhunting which should include forbiding security to auto executing every antag because they just have syndi items. I think you shouldnt be able to execute anyone until they killed someone or stole high valuable item.

[Saaesculus]

As much as I support this, a rule wouldn't really be the right fix because the "Enemy of the corporation" law in space law allows you to execute people for being traitors at all. That's the problem here I think.

[DeletedUser]

 

Yeah, I would love to stop validhunting too, but it's not that simple. Admins can't just wave a magic wand and *poof*, validhunting gone.

 

Some antags are clear "Kill on Sight" by the needs of the gamemode, and while I understand how annoying it might be getting insta-executed for having an emag, we can't just revert rules out of a sudden.

 

The entire admin team is brainstorming about what to do, because it's a clear problem and we never intended having this on the server. We already thought of some small things that could help to push the general mentallity of the playerbase away from the blatant and relentless validhunting. They will be implemented soon-ish as they are developed.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

The thing is, validhunting is an unspoken rule. It's meta-thought and completely against any form of roleplay. We won't force anyone to RP, but we will try to make it harder to go all out and run in without saying a words to somebody. We're still trying to sustain medium RP (not doing too well, but we're trying) and a lot of issues spring up between players and antags.

 

Firstly, we need a rule that's clear, to the point, and has very little room for misinterpretation. The rule means nothing if it can be read fifty different ways and understood differently. Secondly, we need a description of validgaming that isn't too lax, but isn't too excessive either. You let every validgamer by with a free pass and ban one or two big ones, and you can't ban everybody who even dares to get one item that wouldn't be normal for their role, let alone a toolbelt or something. Then, we'd need admins who can easily find this behavior and cut it down. We need to be on the same wavelength and know exactly what is and isn't validgaming/validhunting behavior. Finally, what would be the punishment for this sort of player? We don't want to have a rule that makes it easy to earn you a perma, but then again we don't want the rule to have no punishment behind it either. If you reach into a bear trap and never get caught by it you'll keep sticking your hand in there without a worry, but once it hits you you'll keep away from it if you're smart and don't want to lose more than a hand.

 

Validgaming is a major issue in behavior, and it's so different and varied that we can't really do anything about it because each case won't be the same.

 

In short: We're trying, but we can't find a way to put the rule so that it and its respective punishment and severity are understood by anyone reading the rules for the first time.

 

Quick Note: We also don't want it to happen immediately, we need to start on it slowly or else we'll start losing people. To change the rules of the playerbase you first must change their opinion on the issue. To change their opinion, the best way to do that is an incentive to not act the way they have been. It'll be a while, but we'll work on it as best we can.

 

[DeletedUser]

 

^^^^^^^^^^

 

Thisssssss

 

All of this, Dumbdumn said pretty much everything I couldn't be arsed to put into words.

 

[necaladun]

 

Yeah, Dumbdumn has it...perfectly there. A few things I'd like to add:

 

Hunting and killing someone validly isn't necessarily validhunting - no one is ever accused of validhunting blobs, for instance. Nuke ops are much the same. Wizards are such a major threat, I can't blame anyone for executing them. Unless you have them gagged, they can kill you in a second, teleport away, etc. Changelings and vampires are also major threats, although less so.

 

Traitors being executed we could do with cutting down on - and we're looking at changing space law for just such things.

 

Ever since loyalty implants were changed - which was a form of valid hunting itself, just nonlethal - we've seen an increase in executions, etc.

 

Community feedback on this, ideas and suggestions are welcome and encouraged. This post alone is shows us it's not just the admins thinking that.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

I find that It could be something relating to hostile acts. If a wizard can give you guys a huge boon in a number of places, and you murder him, NT won't be happy about the waste of bullets or potential loss in productivity. Nukies, no excuse there, nor does blob or a shadowling have one. Cultists? Maybe. Lings? See if you can't get them to work with you. Vampires? You can get some use out of them. A lot of potential that never sees the light of day due to validhunters. Basically, talk first, shoot later sort of deal. As long as they don't fire on you, harm people, or otherwise, they should be protected by the law as anybody else would, aside from the nukies,blob,etc.

[thebeoni]

So...i love that you guys actually responded. At first there is need to change space law so having syndicate items that cant hurt anybody directly wouldnt be straight execution. Or change Enemy Of Corporation cannot be executed without commiting other crimes with it. Means if someone would be found with emag or esword without proof they used it they couldnt get executed.

[Nakhi]

 

Yeah, Dumbdumn has it...perfectly there. A few things I'd like to add:

 

Hunting and killing someone validly isn't necessarily validhunting - no one is ever accused of validhunting blobs, for instance. Nuke ops are much the same. Wizards are such a major threat, I can't blame anyone for executing them. Unless you have them gagged, they can kill you in a second, teleport away, etc. Changelings and vampires are also major threats, although less so.

 

Traitors being executed we could do with cutting down on - and we're looking at changing space law for just such things.

 

Ever since loyalty implants were changed - which was a form of valid hunting itself, just nonlethal - we've seen an increase in executions, etc.

 

Community feedback on this, ideas and suggestions are welcome and encouraged. This post alone is shows us it's not just the admins thinking that.

 

Just last night I saw a clown get shot and nearly killed by the Detective for hitting people with a foam armblade, while the detective was calling them a changeling (it was a regular traitor round if I recall correctly). Detective got handled eventually, but I think it's still shows at least a minor issue within the playerbase's mindset.

 

That being said, earlier that day I watched a Chief Engineer, and Security, actually roleplay not knowing what the glowing bloody runes were simply because they could know. I was genuinely impressed, because that is an extreme rarity, and something that was nice to see for once. Security didn't scream "cultist", heads didn't go to red alert, no lynching was done in the time I was there. I had to leave early unfortunately.

 

I've seen a few threads hitting on this. It's obviously an issue, and I know it has been since at least last summer, when we were getting 90-120 people a round. Coupled with staff issues at that time, I think it allowed a mindset to form. And now I think we're reaping the effects of that mindset.

 

When it comes to validhunting antagonists, I have always been against this. I know I had one instance where it seemed like that was what I was doing, but it wasn't intentional. Back on track though, I had seen some ups and downs regarding this, as mentioned above. I personally preferred when there were a few exceptions to the kill on sight rule, and handled from an IC perspective rather than the OOC.

 

Vampires, for example, weren't kill on sight (and friendly vampires were really annoying, admittedly, when they were every one of them every round), but they could definitely be suspected of Syndicate ties simply for being on the station. And honestly? That seemed better roleplayed, though there'd still be the validhunting of them. I would think exploiting their utility would be even more useful. For example, I always enjoyed being a Blueshield vampire. Protecting the heads with supernatural abilities made the role interesting, and for a time I think it changed opinions a bit.

 

Changelings, nuke ops, and wizards though. The first one has been repeatedly pointed to as already killing in order to be the primary identity in order to get aboard. Nuke ops... I think that really goes without saying that they need to be handled accordingly. Wizards can go either way. Peaceful wizard equals Extended, ragin' mage equals "station wide manhunt oh god everyone hide", and there's never a middle ground for that when it's played.

 

Cultists I think are usually handled... wrong. Or worse than they should be. Sure, arcane tome is going to scream "okay, something is wrong here" and/or "CULTISTS! HOLY WATER FOR EVERYONE!". As mentioned above, I've seen the rune RPed recently, which means it's not all bad, but for each one of those instances, there's a hundred more of the "kill all cultists on sight".

 

Traitors are probably the hardest to nail down. The rules as it stands allow them to be killed on sight for anything. I recall yesterday the Head of Security murdered a person for being near a sequencer, when they actually didn't use it and it was someone else's. So, as one person stated in another thread I believe, it leads to a go big or hide in the shadows mentality for traitors. I see it rendering every single player a possible threat to the traitor, and thus more likely to be killed if that person so much as sees anything happen. Then there are the people that genuinely try to RP as a traitor and get shot down... literally.

 

Of course this is basically preaching to the choir. As Adr has said more than once, the ones that validhunt don't ever really come to the forum for anything other than unban appeals. I think the only difference is that everyone may have a different approach to handling things. I do remember when there was a higher RP standard on Paradise, and it's unfortunate it slipped over time due in part to so many people. I would like to see it return, but it would need a concerted effort between staff and players to make it happen. And I think that's the problem. Until you start defining valid hunting, which I believe is being done now, no real change can happen.

 

[Earthdivine]

 

For example, I always enjoyed being a Blueshield vampire. Protecting the heads with supernatural abilities made the role interesting, and for a time I think it changed opinions a bit.

 

I really enjoyed doing this at times too, but like all fun things the playerbase mentality ruined it. Having Changelings going to security, playing nice and selling out their allies so they can do their stuff in peace, Vampire sec killing their brethren by virtue of being immune to the powers. Players were ruining antag rounds AS antags and being protected for doing it.

 

But yea, this is very much preaching to the Choir as barely anyone on the server actually comes to these fourms. The best we can do is Space Law and Standard Operating Procedures to force it in game or rule changing for more extreme cases.

 

[necaladun]

 

Devil's Advocate time!

 

The problem (and some of the reasons enemy of the corp was updated) was because of how easy it was to be a friendly antag and get objectives done.

 

If you play as an antag, there's a good chance you'll have the objective to murder someone else and take them out of the round - assuming the same risk seems fair.

 

Now being KoS'd for having a supposed syndicate item is a bit far - especially as it coulda been planted on you etc. But this -is- war. 99% of vampires sent have been with objectives to damage NT. Wizards are a hostile organisation. Every changeling on board has committed murder to get there. ((Edit: Or not, as lings have changed...but they're still evil!))

 

It's not about killing the antags for win the game.

 

It's about sending a message.

 

(I don't actually agree with this per se, but I find it semi-valid).

 

[johannhawk]

 

Traitors are probably the hardest to nail down. The rules as it stands allow them to be killed on sight for anything. I recall yesterday the Head of Security murdered a person for being near a sequencer, when they actually didn't use it and it was someone else's. So, as one person stated in another thread I believe, it leads to a go big or hide in the shadows mentality for traitors. I see it rendering every single player a possible threat to the traitor, and thus more likely to be killed if that person so much as sees anything happen. Then there are the people that genuinely try to RP as a traitor and get shot down... literally.

 

Adrkiller59 said this to me --> "You laaaargely overestimate our average player. But yeah those guys dont come to the forums anyways.

 

i told you Adrkiller, they are always coming for me.

 

this also creates a huge luck aspect regarding the witnesses of a crime,

''ok guys we got the HoS flawlessly'' *janiborg comes in and then runs off* *we dump the body at research outpost* *bluesheild, detective, secborg and janiborg came after us soon enough* i had /TWO/ mindslaves that round...

 

i dont have much else to say in this post.

 

[Dinarzad]

 

Personal opinion time:

Valid Hunting isn't gonna go away unless similar ideaology/rules are in place -for the antags themselves-.

I had a ling round where the ling, within a span of 20 or so minutes, killed a nearly double digit amount of people that were wholly unrelated to his objective. (I know it was over 6, but I surely didn't count them all out.)

His location was screamed out with the first victim, so naturally people went to check it out, security, some others, either to find the changeling or to look for the body of the guy who'd just bit the dust, a sec officer.

 

Except, thing was, he stayed near the growing body pile with space lube an his arm blade the -entire time-, wordlessly slaughtering everyone who slipped in the maintenance tunnel and the only reason he booked it at all is cuz someone brought a friggin -ripley- to the scene. And then he just did it to a smaller degree later on before finally high-tailing it.

 

It's really hard to say Validhunting is a problem and something we're striving to solve when -that- kind of action is fully allowed. If it had been a non-antag who had been doing that to .... let's say a Vox Raider team, everyone would have shouted "Valid Hunter".

 

Why does any of that whiny bitching of a tirade matter? Cuz if antags -are- allowed to just go ham like that an wordlessly/no RP slaughter mass populace wholesale an sit atop their throne of corpses, preventing any body retrieval, then yes, my first reaction is going to be to gut the ling/wizard/traitor/whatever, because if I give him a chance to RP, he's not gonna give me the same and he's going to remove me from the round, objective or no.

If I can't trust the fact a wiz won't just magic me on sight why should he be able to trust I won't just insert a metal rod down his throat on sight?

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

It's really hard to say Validhunting is a problem and something we're striving to solve when -that- kind of action is fully allowed. If it had been a non-antag who had been doing that to .... let's say a Vox Raider team, everyone would have shouted "Valid Hunter".

 

Why does any of that whiny bitching of a tirade matter? Cuz if antags -are- allowed to just go ham like that an wordlessly/no RP slaughter mass populace wholesale an sit atop their throne of corpses, preventing any body retrieval, then yes, my first reaction is going to be to gut the ling/wizard/traitor/whatever, because if I give him a chance to RP, he's not gonna give me the same and he's going to remove me from the round, objective or no.

If I can't trust the fact a wiz won't just magic me on sight why should he be able to trust I won't just insert a metal rod down his throat on sight?

 

This is the exact reason it's so incredibly hard to make a rule that's fair. Not only do we have to restrict the non-antags and security, but we also have to restrict the antagonists. The main crew is simple to deal with when a rule is changed, but sec and antags are a whole different story with a whole different set of mechanics and ideas. Antag players already have to skirt around fifty thousand different things and worry about getting killed because they looked at the HoS, but if we add more restrictions, it may get a lot harder, or a lot easier. Hard to tell what will happen, and the second server would be hard to judge because usually the people on the forums go there, and, in my personal opinion, the forum players are the more RP oriented and respectable crowd.

 

To be honest, if we're striving for medium RP, we need to make sure you can at the very least get a word in with your murderer before he slices a hole in your neck. We're not doing Bay levels of RP, nor are we doing Goon levels of RP or antag freedom either. We're trying to strike middle ground, which is the hardest place to strike because there's so little of it. For middle ground to work, we need the rules, mechanics, balancing, and community to support it. We need people to look down on and discourage this behavior, rather than look at it as a reasonable reaction. The thing is, that needs an opinion, and we can't change thoughts with rules, we can only enforce them and hope the remaining players respect them.

 

Rules are nothing without something to enforce them. The enforcers are nothing without a community to protect and enforce the rules within. What we say is not what goes into the rules, and this is an excellent discussion. We need as many people as possible to get in here and talk about their feelings on this delicate subject, and that is because we don't know what's best, because we see from a different standpoint. We need people who care about this server to talk about the future of the server, because without that valuable input, we can't do anything meaningful.

 

Antagonists will be hard to deal with due to their nature and their behaviors as well. Not only is validhunting an issue, but so is murderboning and violation of rule 0 (Rule 0: Don't be a Dick) in all antags. A changeling or a vampire can kill anybody they like due to the nature of their abilities, this is the same for shadowlings, ordering people to run to their death. This is a problem because it is allowed without restraint because of their abilities and the danger they face from sec or otherwise. Hard to catch murderboning, like rev rounds, cult (when it gets going), and mutiny are issues with the playerbase. Potentially inexperienced players take it as an excuse to murder everything because antag somehow has that permission, and a lot of the time, people don't report the grief they experience.

 

Speaking from experience, I've been on as a lone admin on multiple occasions. People were rambling on in deadchat about how sec and the HoS were being "shitcurity", yet not a single one of them had reported anything the entire round even after being asked to report it. A lot of the reason we catch people is due to the fact that people report it to us. Our attack logs are so common we overlook them often, and we don't monitor chat constantly. Most of the mins either end up AFK, playing, or occupied otherwise by the time people end up needing assistance, and by then there's so few people to answer and so many people to answer to that it's incredibly difficult to manage.

 

In short: This is a problem on all sides, we need your support, not just our words. Antags are most of the reason as to why this is so difficult due to rule balancing and gameplay mechanics and we need to know where to draw a line before we set anything in stone.

 

Thank you for your time. ~Dumb

 

[Fj45]

 

That being said, earlier that day I watched a Chief Engineer, and Security, actually roleplay not knowing what the glowing bloody runes were simply because they could know. I was genuinely impressed, because that is an extreme rarity, and something that was nice to see for once. Security didn't scream "cultist", heads didn't go to red alert, no lynching was done in the time I was there. I had to leave early unfortunately.

 

 

 

There is RPing knowing what that means.

There is RPing trying to find out what that means.

 

And there is acting braindead and """"RPing"""" as someone so stupid that they couldn't recognize a gun as a threat.

 

I shouldn't have to state why the third one is bloody awful.

 

[Fj45]

 

((Edit: Or not, as lings have changed...but they're still evil!))

 

How were lings changed?

 

[DZD]

Lore-wise, they weren't at all. Still killed somebody to get onto the station. Gameplay-wise? /tg/ changelings.

[davidchan]

 

Was gonna say, yeah they still killed and they technically don't have a human form naturally, so who ever they spawn as is just the first person they killed some time prior to the shift.

 

And while I'm glad some of the more OP stings are gone, that AOE stun/disorient has me scratching my head that it works vs people wearing ear and eye protection that protect against flashbangs.

 

[Coldflame]

 

Personal opinion time:

Valid Hunting isn't gonna go away unless similar ideaology/rules are in place -for the antags themselves-.

I had a ling round where the ling, within a span of 20 or so minutes, killed a nearly double digit amount of people that were wholly unrelated to his objective. (I know it was over 6, but I surely didn't count them all out.)

His location was screamed out with the first victim, so naturally people went to check it out, security, some others, either to find the changeling or to look for the body of the guy who'd just bit the dust, a sec officer.

 

Except, thing was, he stayed near the growing body pile with space lube an his arm blade the -entire time-, wordlessly slaughtering everyone who slipped in the maintenance tunnel and the only reason he booked it at all is cuz someone brought a friggin -ripley- to the scene. And then he just did it to a smaller degree later on before finally high-tailing it.

 

It's really hard to say Validhunting is a problem and something we're striving to solve when -that- kind of action is fully allowed. If it had been a non-antag who had been doing that to .... let's say a Vox Raider team, everyone would have shouted "Valid Hunter".

 

Why does any of that whiny bitching of a tirade matter? Cuz if antags -are- allowed to just go ham like that an wordlessly/no RP slaughter mass populace wholesale an sit atop their throne of corpses, preventing any body retrieval, then yes, my first reaction is going to be to gut the ling/wizard/traitor/whatever, because if I give him a chance to RP, he's not gonna give me the same and he's going to remove me from the round, objective or no.

If I can't trust the fact a wiz won't just magic me on sight why should he be able to trust I won't just insert a metal rod down his throat on sight?

I don't think using (and arguably abusing) space lube to create a indiscriminate meatgrinder then changing the DNA of all the bodies into lesser forms to limit the potential to clone them is really something a validhunter would do.

 

[necaladun]

 

I believe that he meant such actions make people valudhunt somewhat - the fear a ling could do that.

 

There's a big line between sec and other crew doing it...it is literally secs job. Problems do come in with unnecessary executions ofc, but most if the valid hunting I see is regular crew, with either disarm spam, syringe guns, r&d toys, etc

 

[TullyBBurnalot]

 

That being said, earlier that day I watched a Chief Engineer, and Security, actually roleplay not knowing what the glowing bloody runes were simply because they could know. I was genuinely impressed, because that is an extreme rarity, and something that was nice to see for once. Security didn't scream "cultist", heads didn't go to red alert, no lynching was done in the time I was there. I had to leave early unfortunately.

 

 

 

There is RPing knowing what that means.

There is RPing trying to find out what that means.

 

And there is acting braindead and """"RPing"""" as someone so stupid that they couldn't recognize a gun as a threat.

 

I shouldn't have to state why the third one is bloody awful.

 

Personally, I believe not recognizing an arcane tome is perfectly reasonable. If you inspect IC, all you get is a bland book full of scribbles. Kinda hard to figure out anything from it.

 

Failing to recognize A RUNIG SIGIL SMEARED ON THE GROUND IN BLOOD THAT'S FREAKIN' GLOWING is just incredibly stupid, especially considering that, IC, the Cult of Nar-Sie is supposed to be a known enemy of Nanotrasen.

 

[Charles Fapp]

Sounds like lore needs to also be changed, I would recommend making most, if not all, antags unknown to NanoTrasen.

[Rumiluntti]

 

Sounds like lore needs to also be changed, I would recommend making most, if not all, antags unknown to NanoTrasen.

 

Forced RP ignorance does not work.

 

[TullyBBurnalot]

 

Sounds like lore needs to also be changed, I would recommend making most, if not all, antags unknown to NanoTrasen.

 

I was never a fan of this, since, technically, we've all been working for NT for long enough to know these people/monsters/things/whatever.

 

However, reworking "Corp Enemy" so it doesn't give everyone a legal "out" to just execute all antags on the spot would be appreciated.

 

[Malarks]

 

Thought:

 

Sec is there for the crew's protection. They are paid to be worried about these things and to prepare for them, if/when they happen.

 

The crew is there to do their damned job! Not get mixed up with antag's and such. You are putting valuable NT property at risk when you approach an antag as a non-Sec crew member. I feel like this should be a bit more prevalent.

 

I don't care if you were an ex-navy seal deathsquad commander from the Bogon Wars and could single-handedly eviscerate the whole of the Vox Raider Fleet... You're a janitor, now. You aren't paid to concern yourself with such things.