New Rule - Validhunting

[Fj45]

 

  Charles Fapp said:

Sounds like lore needs to also be changed, I would recommend making most, if not all, antags unknown to NanoTrasen.

 

Ahaha nope. Not only would that not fix the issue, it would destroy one of the best things about paradise.

 

Forced "RP" is awful.

Scripted "RP" is awful.

 

I don't want every shift to be a game of "the thing."

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

  Fj45 said:

  Charles Fapp said:

Sounds like lore needs to also be changed, I would recommend making most, if not all, antags unknown to NanoTrasen.

 

Ahaha nope. Not only would that not fix the issue, it would destroy one of the best things about paradise.

 

Forced "RP" is awful.

Scripted "RP" is awful.

 

I don't want every shift to be a game of "the thing."

This. We are not going to give up antag knowledge any time soon, no worries about that. Also, allow me to post my rant from the admin section.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I've not got much to say that hasn't been said before really. As I've said, validhunting is a large problem and it's hard to cut down on due to interpretation and effects. If the rule is too general it's too hard to enforce, and if the rule is too specific it won't be a very effective rule either. We need to make sure that the gameplay feels right after we put in the rule, and we need to try and make as many people happy as possible.

 

We need to make sure that the rule won't go in too quickly, it needs to happen slowly or else we'll lose a lot of people. Immediate and drastic actions will cause us to lose far more people than if we let people adjust and give feedback on what to do next and what hasn't worked so far. The rule can't be too intrusive, for example RP restrictions for either side. Sec/crew shouldn't have to RP while the antag butchers them and vice versa. We also can't immediately restrict the abilities of either crew or antags. Then again, we can't have something that's very loose and hard to follow, we can't say something so minor that it'd have too small a presence in the game.

 

We have to remember, we're trying to reach a middle ground area that's not very easy to find due to the serious implications of the rule, the community reactions, and the fact that there's such a small area that we can reach without going overboard or finding a dysfunctional grey area.

 

We've gotten community feedback on valid hunting before, and it'd be great to have descriptions for the rule/rules that would go in up on a vote as we did with naming. Things like brigging on evidence and not suspicion or attempting to restrain a subject instead of outright murdering them. Things in space law like, have the antagonist decide between execution, borging, or perma (perma may be an issue regarding safety and escape possibilities).

 

It needs to be a rule that allows us to easily identify, dispute, and solve any issues that could arise from this behavior, and we need to be certain that the players understand exactly what they're dealing with. If the player and the admin see the rule in ways that are too different we'll have too much confusion, but if we can strike a balance with rules like we have before regarding slight variations but a general idea it should be just fine. Punishments and application of these punishments must be dealt with as well, because we can't hand out permas every single time somebody acts in this way, but then again we don't want to always hand out day bans to people as it would be too light. A lot of the problem also stems from the fact that you can't jobban for it, as validhunting is often done in a readily available position that would be nearly impossible to stop without a full on ban.

 

As Adr said, security is there to protect the crew, not hunt out antags. The detective can act on suspicions and hunches through investigation, where as security officers need to wait for proof, and an ok to go. A lot of the time, the sec officers investigate and act on assumptions and hunches instead, without asking what's going on, often leading to shitcurity being thrown around. As for the crew, the crew needs to call sec more often. If they suspect somebody of something, they shouldn't be taking a look at it themselves, they should be calling the detective and getting answers through investigation. Sure you can hit a guy once or twice or enough to get away safely if you and your friend get into something, but you don't cuff him, drag him to sec, and start beating on him.

 

Antags also have issues when it comes to rules. A lot of the reason why they won't RP is because nobody else will bother to RP before shooting at them. They stop for one moment and the validhunter sees that textbox appear, you can bet that they'll charge in and have them on the ground long before they can finish speaking and vice versa. Antags also have to constantly fear killing people, as if they slip up even the tiniest bit, they're probably going to get banned. It'd be good if there was a rule that had you not harm or kill on suspicion, as many validhunters have no legitimate and absolute proof of them being an antag, and instead just kill them and cross their fingers. Sure they may usually be right, but that's still not an excuse to kill somebody who could've genuinely found a traitor's soap or electromagnetic card.Then the rules protect the crew member while they mindlessly slam themselves against the antag, and normally the antag will get a complaint filed against them because "Admun they kill me but not objective ban he for permanent!".

 

Antags also provoke valid hunting behavior as well. They shoot first, they work for a corporation that isn't owned by NanoTrasen lore-wise. Most antags have assassinate objectives (Meta thinking, but mostly true), and generally just existing as a whole brings it on.

 

As for a potential way to stop it. No coddling. I don't care for coddling in any case, and as it stands, the crew is too protected. An antag can place a bomb to cause a distraction to sneak into engi and steal, but he can't because it destroys the station and it could kill people. The antag should be able to kill people who are acting as if they know too much. For example, somebody acting in a way that is very much like a valid hunter, should be able to be killed by the antag because they could reveal their position.This is a traitor, they normally don't care about the crew, why in the world would they not kill somebody who could potentially get in the way of their stealth and their objectives? An antagonist should act like an antagonist and a crew member should act like a crew member. But they can't do that because if they kill a crewmember that's potentially unnecessary or irrelevant to their objectives, they usually get banned. As for the crew, they'll get paranoid, but they shouldn't act on the paranoia, they should get security. They should get the people who are meant to protect the crew to protect the actual crew. If antags can kill people for validhunting behavior, chances are valid hunting will die down because they can't do what they want very easily. It's like theft. Do you want to plan an elaborate heist, take hours of your days and nights, and then have a chance of success if you get the right time window? Or do you want to stroll in, grab something, and get out? Chances are, valid hunters would fit into the latter. They're usually pretty lazy, and they usually just want to kill the antags because they can. In-game sec reports are much like admin complaints. Security, much like us, usually needs a report unless they see it for themselves. If nobody reports it, chances are it's not caught.

 

Anyways, that's just my reiteration of what I've said already.

 

In short: It's a problem on both sides, we can't fix it unless we get the community to agree on it, and it can't be too rapid or drastic because we'll lose too many players.

 

On a side note: It'd be best to do this while leaving our knowledge of antags intact. Removal of that would have us lose most of the community.

 

 

I am the rant God, although Fox does some ranting too.

 

[Fj45]

Chicken egg problem I'd say.

[DeletedUser]

 

Damn DumbDumn spares me so much typing, good coz i'm lazy.

 

Okay so what about.... we make antags (traitors, lings, vampires, vox, whatever) not look like validhunter candy and make them look actually scary? Most antags are afraid of using their syndicate items because they will either get a "; GORGE MELLENS HAS AN E-BOW EVERYBODY KILL'IM" and have a mob of frothing murderhobos after him, or they will get a *BWOINK* "Why did you kill that baldie that ran at you with a knife while you were in blood-stained SWAT armor and with a gun and an e-sword out?"

 

If blind crowbar-charging (or disarm-spam, you call it) becomes actually fruitless maybe people would actually stop doing it, eh?

 

And it really doesn't help that security officers feel like The Ultimate Antag-crusher of Doom.

 

 

[spoiler2]EDIT: 1000 posts WOOOOOOP[/spoiler2]

 

[Fj45]

 

We had a round with a bluesec running around in a nukie hardsuit (from a traitor) and a Captain who called the shuttle to "flush out the traitors."

 

Jesus christ.