Emagging IPC's should subvert it.

[Spacemanspark]

 

Emagging an IPC should give a law zero to the IPC stating, "[Emagger here] is your master, obey them at all costs.".

 

And yes, I can already hear the cries of 'BUT EMAGS ARE INFINITE USE'. So here's a few solutions:

-Make it take two swipes with the emag for it to subvert the IPC. The first swipe might, say, give a message to the IPC saying 'You feel your anti-virus software fail!' and alert them. The second swipe would actually subvert the IPC after a few short seconds.

-Limit Emag use before the Emag breaks again. [spoiler2]This is a touchy subject and I'd rather not talk about that too much in this thread.[/spoiler2]

-Only allow a set number of IPC (Not cyborg) subversions per Emag. Perhaps two.

-Make it so you have to stand still next to the IPC to subvert it for a few seconds. If you or the IPC moves, no dice. May or may not give a message to the IPC as well during that time.

 

[Mrs Dobbins]

 

wasn't this a thing?

also this would be great as I could emag IPAV a lot to annoy joonasm.

 

[Tauka Usanake]

Don't IPC's not have laws? How would getting a zero law affect them? Unless I'm thinking this too much. I thought positronic brains were basically synthetic human brains

[Spacemanspark]

 

Don't IPC's not have laws? How would getting a zero law affect them? Unless I'm thinking this too much. I thought positronic brains were basically synthetic human brains

Positronic brains can also be placed into AI cores and cyborgs.

And, honestly, I don't really think it matters too much on the specifics, they're synthetics. Just because they don't have laws originally doesn't mean they can't be bound to any.

 

[Blackmage199]

 

I'd be like a mindslave implant, but with an Emag, instead.

...

Do mindslave implants affects IPCs?

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

I'd be like a mindslave implant, but with an Emag, instead.

...

Do mindslave implants affects IPCs?

Yes, they do, also note that positronics don't necessarily mean laws. If you take an MMI out of a borg body that was hacked and put it into a human it wouldn't have any laws, the same can be said for posibrains if you just so happen to keep the IPC body, have a new borg body, or keep a spiderbot chassis around. So technically, logic wise, laws are bound to bodies that support laws, not brains, which, if you read the highly irrelevant, pretty much never used in anything except for debates lore, was phased out a long time ago and never added to the newer models of IPCs.

 

Still, mindslave implants already do this, not sure why we'd need more on them. Unless implants don't work and emags would, but in that case there'd be a bunch of odd mixups and such, mainly because if IPCs had some form of anti-subversion mechanism why would cultists, revolutionaries, etc, have any affect without first damaging the unit or hacking it?

 

EDIT: In summary, wouldn't mindslave implants be just fine on their own, as the posibrain is basically the same thing as a normal brain? It does nothing special on death or during life. (though I wish it could talk through death seeing as how it's still fully active even after the body dies, and the brain itself has speech capabilities)

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

I continually forget we have mindslave implants, nobody ever uses them (even though I've used them here [been a long time] and other servers.).

We need to use them more.

Feel free to close thread.

 

[Tauka Usanake]

 

Yes, they do, also note that positronics don't necessarily mean laws. If you take an MMI out of a borg body that was hacked and put it into a human it wouldn't have any laws, the same can be said for posibrains if you just so happen to keep the IPC body, have a new borg body, or keep a spiderbot chassis around. So technically, logic wise, laws are bound to bodies that support laws, not brains, which, if you read the highly irrelevant, pretty much never used in anything except for debates lore, was phased out a long time ago and never added to the newer models of IPCs.

 

I actually read that which was the basis for my question above. I might be a nerd

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

Yup; this was *talked* about by Zuhayr, but never realized.

 

 

And yes, not much point to emags mindslaving IPCs, though if we didn't have minslaves, then this would probably be a decent idea.

 

 

I do agree that mindslave implants are heavily underutilized---I think a big part of it is that for here, implants aren't instantaneous...so you have to incap someone before you can mindslave them...and chances are they'll shout over the radio about it.

 

On Goon, mindslave implants are instant, meaning that if you get one click on the person, they're implanted---while this is interesting, in concept, I fear it would be abused here, in this manner: casually implanting your target, in the hall, then telling them to suicide (which they have to)....which.... is even WORSE than parapen+C4.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

I do agree that mindslave implants are heavily underutilized---I think a big part of it is that for here, implants aren't instantaneous...so you have to incap someone before you can mindslave them...and chances are they'll shout over the radio about it.

 

Going a bit off topic here, but we should defenatly introduce ways to scramble or silent coms for antags. Many neat tools like implants and stuff are not used because incap people without them screaming is basicly impossible. I mean yes, it was right to remove the insta stun from the parapen, but it was literally the only option to ensure someone won't scream over coms. All we need is some sort of impulse, like EMP, but that ensures that headset don't transmit. I think it's only a chance with EMP and it will only mute recieving and not transmitting, but might be wrong here.

 

[Earthdivine]

 

Going off getting EMP'd by the Singlo, it turns headsets off, preventing transmitting and receiving.

 

Though a tool to prevent transmissions of both kinds in a small area would be great, it's also easy to tell where one is when the radio stops going.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

Going off getting EMP'd by the Singlo, it turns headsets off, preventing transmitting and receiving.

 

Though a tool to prevent transmissions of both kinds in a small area would be great, it's also easy to tell where one is when the radio stops going.

I am just not sure if a EMP will 100% disable coms, i thought it was a chance, but i might be wrong. But yes, you will need some more compact tool to initiate the EMP than a grenade. A grenade would be relativly useless because it would announce your malicious intentions and there is a good chance your target will just run off. A emp pen with a weak emp would be great, it should not be super deadly to IPCs and maybe only mess with headsets and maybe other itmes.

 

[liran424]

 

EMP blasts (EMP grenades, ion rifle etc.) ALWAYS disable machines in their radius blast.. that's including headsets, flashes, E guns, unsuspecting IPCs etc.

 

The More You Know.

 

[liran424]

but not doors because space magic

[Spacemanspark]

 

It electrocutes doors.

On Goon, mindslave implants are instant, meaning that if you get one click on the person, they're implanted---while this is interesting, in concept, I fear it would be abused here, in this manner: casually implanting your target, in the hall, then telling them to suicide (which they have to)....which.... is even WORSE than parapen+C4.

Perhaps mindslave implants could just force you to obey any order except suicide?

In other words, you can't commit suicide if you were to be implanted, or if you were told to commit suicide.

Because, ya, that would be really shitty.

 

Edited August 24, 2015 by Guest

[Tauka Usanake]

Can't we make a compact radio jammer? Something that will mute comms in a small area around it? That way you can get someone and they can't scream bloody murder but you yourself also can't hear radio due to being in the range. Maybe give it a slight charge and cooldown too. I think this could be a good syndicate item

[pinatacolada]

Wouldn't sleepy pen + implant solve it? (I didn't do the math, not sure if we have enough TC for that)

[Spacemanspark]

You can't really use a sleepy pen on an IPC.

[Coldflame]

 

Wouldn't sleepy pen + implant solve it? (I didn't do the math, not sure if we have enough TC for that)

Yeah, you can do that and have 2tc left over. I've done it a couple times. Tabling someone also gives a long enough window and they're unlikely to radio it in time.

 

Personally I'm not a huge fan of mindslave implants as a concept (it's a substitute for roleplaying getting someone onto your side as an antag and gives you freedom to pull bullshit like making someone suicide). There are perfectly valid roleplay alternatives (explosive implants, briefcase full of cash). It turns an interesting gimmick for a traitor into something far more easily achieved through using a win button (which antags have enough of already)

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

Wouldn't sleepy pen + implant solve it? (I didn't do the math, not sure if we have enough TC for that)

Yeah, you can do that and have 2tc left over. I've done it a couple times. Tabling someone also gives a long enough window and they're unlikely to radio it in time.

 

Personally I'm not a huge fan of mindslave implants as a concept (it's a substitute for roleplaying getting someone onto your side as an antag and gives you freedom to pull bullshit like making someone suicide). There are perfectly valid roleplay alternatives (explosive implants, briefcase full of cash). It turns an interesting gimmick for a traitor into something far more easily achieved through using a win button (which antags have enough of already)

All of the above. From a roleplay perspective this would be much better way.

 

Now that i think about it, the whole existance of a mindslave implant is fundamently wrong. If the other player is willing to help you, then the only purpose a mindslave implant serves is to antag someone (Giving him the right to kill someone, on a server rule level). In this case a offer of money or a position in the syndicate would make much more sense.

 

When the other player is unwilling in the first place, then he will most likely not cooporate and just SSD, or fart on a bible, or whatever kids do these days.

 

So what's the point of even having a mindslave implant? You cannot force the actual person sitting in front of the computer to do what you want, that is not how this works.

 

[Tauka Usanake]

 

When the other player is unwilling in the first place, then he will most likely not cooporate and just SSD, or fart on a bible, or whatever kids do these days.

 

So what's the point of even having a mindslave implant? You cannot force the actual person sitting in front of the computer to do what you want, that is not how this works.

I don't know, if I was mindslaved I'd probably do what I'm told in the most direct way possible unless given certain instructions. Like, "Go murder Bob," I'll just go find him and start toolboxing him or something. "Go murder Bob but don't get caught," I would be more careful about what I do. I would argue it all depends what is told but that's just me. It almost doesn't matter if it ruins my game because I just Hydroponics anyways, but I would still be playing either way

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

Personally I'm not a huge fan of mindslave implants as a concept (it's a substitute for roleplaying getting someone onto your side as an antag and gives you freedom to pull bullshit like making someone suicide). There are perfectly valid roleplay alternatives (explosive implants, briefcase full of cash). It turns an interesting gimmick for a traitor into something far more easily achieved through using a win button (which antags have enough of already)

 

The problem is, you have no way knowing if they'll help you or not---likewise, there aren't a whole lot of compelling reasons to help someone unless you're good IC friends with the person--I realize there's a definite a roleplay component to it, and that's fine and great--but that only goes so far; people are basically selfishly motivated, and when the only thing you have to bribe them with is cash that's more or less usesless...well, you get the idea.

 

There's also the fact that there's absolutely NOTHING you can do to prevent the person from turning you in; whether or not they explicitly agree with your plans---nothing is stopping them from turning around, marching straight to security and having them turned in and likely taken out of the round, permanently.

 

[Coldflame]

 

Personally I'm not a huge fan of mindslave implants as a concept (it's a substitute for roleplaying getting someone onto your side as an antag and gives you freedom to pull bullshit like making someone suicide). There are perfectly valid roleplay alternatives (explosive implants, briefcase full of cash). It turns an interesting gimmick for a traitor into something far more easily achieved through using a win button (which antags have enough of already)

 

The problem is, you have no way knowing if they'll help you or not---likewise, there aren't a whole lot of compelling reasons to help someone unless you're good IC friends with the person--I realize there's a definite a roleplay component to it, and that's fine and great--but that only goes so far; people are basically selfishly motivated, and when the only thing you have to bribe them with is cash that's more or less usesless...well, you get the idea.

 

There's also the fact that there's absolutely NOTHING you can do to prevent the person from turning you in; whether or not they explicitly agree with your plans---nothing is stopping them from turning around, marching straight to security and having them turned in and likely taken out of the round, permanently.

 

This isn't an issue averted by mindslave implants being used. Anyone who's mindslaved who doesn't want to be will usually end up 'accidentally' getting caught (I've also seen this happen with cult and rev in the past). In the end, assuming people will avoid roleplaying whilst still trying to enforce it simply isn't going to work.

 

In my personal experiences I've rarely seen people mindslave people who they don't know either IC or OOC. I've also quite rarely seen mindslave implants be used as means to completing an objective rather than a TC sink to dick around with on a round with easy objectives.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

The difference between the two is that turning down someone who makes an offer then turning them in carries no OOC consequences.

 

Suiciding after getting mindslaved/thralled/rev'd/culted/etc is a bannable offense.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

I don't know, if I was mindslaved I'd probably do what I'm told in the most direct way possible unless given certain instructions. Like, "Go murder Bob," I'll just go find him and start toolboxing him or something. "Go murder Bob but don't get caught," I would be more careful about what I do. I would argue it all depends what is told but that's just me. It almost doesn't matter if it ruins my game because I just Hydroponics anyways, but I would still be playing either way

 

Well fair enough, but given your explanation, i would count you as willing OOC. I didn't say that mindslave won't work in this situation, i just said that i think there could be more compelling IC reason than just an implant that forces you to do so.

 

There's also the fact that there's absolutely NOTHING you can do to prevent the person from turning you in; whether or not they explicitly agree with your plans---nothing is stopping them from turning around, marching straight to security and having them turned in and likely taken out of the round, permanently.

 

True, just money is a very bad motivation in ss13 since it is round based and doesn't carry much meaning. But if this is combined with the person getting his own traitor objectives, like helping the person that recruited you + maybe a bonus objective from the syndicate, he would have as much motivation as someone who signed up for beeing a traitor at round start.

 

The problem is, you have no way knowing if they'll help you or not---likewise, there aren't a whole lot of compelling reasons to help someone unless you're good IC friends with the person--I realize there's a definite a roleplay component to it, and that's fine and great--but that only goes so far; people are basically selfishly motivated, and when the only thing you have to bribe them with is cash that's more or less usesless...well, you get the idea.

I would argue that is a risk you have to take, you need to get a feeling of how the person behaves before making him the offer. Once he accepted the offer he is officially a member of the syndicate and has no reason to betray you, because he needs to help you in order to "win" his objective. If he refuses the offer, he probably would rat you out and you need to deal with him.

 

I think the reason why people rat out syndicate members almost every time is that there is no compelling reason not to. There is no way for a crewmember and a syndicate member to work together, even if they both wanted to. The server rules basicly don't allow a non antag to act how they would need to in order to be useful. So of course when people find out someone is a syndicate they run to security in order to "sell" their information there, mabye get a medal or something, because they can't do the opposite and work with the syndicate. The possibility of beeing willingly mindslaved is not very attractive to a player, because as the name suggest, it makes you a slave, nobody wants to be a slave.

 

Mindslave is the same as becomming a traitor AI (borg), the chances that you will die are astronomicly high, because you usually get the order to kill your target as soon as possibly and at all costs. I can accept emagging as a borg, because if i play borg i am already aware at round start that i might be subject to strange laws. If am am playing a normal crewmember i might not be in the state of mind where i want to follow someone elses orders, maybe i just want to dick around as civ drinking at the bar and don't give a shit.

 

The difference between the two is that turning down someone who makes an offer then turning them in carries no OOC consequences.

 

Suiciding after getting mindslaved/thralled/rev'd/culted/etc is a bannable offense.

Of course you can try to enforce that via OOC means, but you cannot just force someone to play something he doesn't want. I don't see how this rule can be propperly enforced. The person who mindslaves someone against his ooc will and sends that player basicly on a suicide run is practically breaking rule 6. Additionally how can you know if someone doesn't acually has to go SSD. There is no rule that i have to play a round until it's over. If I know that I have one hour left to play I will choose a non critical role and play as long as i can, knowing that i might need to stop playing at a moments notice. If someone just comes up to me and suddenly makes me an antag, you cannot expect me keep playing even if i have to deal with irl stuff.

 

Instead punishing someone for not doing something, we should rather encourage (create engaging ingame means) and reward (e.g. gain one karma if the person who recruited you achieves his goals) someone if he does it.