Remove random broken cameras

[Kluys]

 

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/457

This pull went in a long time ago and this feature has basically annoyed me ever since it went in, I already adressed it in a list of other things in a previous post but I think it deserves its own suggestion seeing how much issues it can cause.

 

at round start there is a 3% chance any of the cameras on the station is broken down, this goes from cameras in the clown office all the way up to the camera in the captains office and even cameras on the AI sattalite.

 

The argument made in the pull that it keeps things from getting to meta when the AI spots a broken camera is voided by the fact that any good AI player will usually search and report all of the broken cameras in the first 5 minutes of the game. Not to mention the fact that cameras being down SHOULD be seen as something fishy.

 

Right now the broken camera mechanic only serves to be annoying to the AI especially when its on their own sattalite. (today an AI couldn't turn their own core turrets off which are set to lethal at round start)

And as busywork for the engineers, Someone has said that "it adds something for the engineers to do" but I doubt any of the engineers enjoys being yelled at to go somewhere to fix one random camera.

 

I've also heared people say "change it so it doesn't happen on the sattalite" but that would mean we would still be stuck with a useless annoying feature that doesn't really do anything.

 

TL;DR

- Annoying

- Doesn't accomplish the reason it was added

- Serves no real purpose

- not fun (AT ALL)

 

[Blackmage199]

I concur, this feature is brings more annoyance than anything else.

[MarkvA]

 

I disagree. There's been a huge power creep to the AI, giving it the position of ultimate validhunter. As such, the moment a camera breaks, it'll start accusing everyone that came close to the camera because cameras don't start broken (previously).

 

Most AI's and cyborgs on the server do not follow their lawset and validhunt regardless of what laws they have. Until we enforce AI laws more strictly giving the AI any more supercop meta abilities is a bad idea.

 

[Alex6511]

I agree with Mark, but I think we need a way to whitelist cameras like ai core, as one of them starting broken (especially during malf) can cause massive problems for the ai.

[Kluys]

 

Like I said mark and alex, I understand that the validhunting problem is there but this is not the way to fix it.

validhunting AI's will just find all the cameras immidiately and then report cameras that broke during the round as they did before, it hasn't changed at all it still happens.

 

whitelisting the cameras on the AI sattalite will just add more snowflake code for a feature that doesn't really acomplish what it says on the box.

 

The only way I see this work is if we had a small chance of a camera turning off temporarily DURING the round.

 

[Lars]

 

The argument made in the pull that it keeps things from getting to meta when the AI spots a broken camera is voided by the fact that any good AI player will usually search and report all of the broken cameras in the first 5 minutes of the game. Not to mention the fact that cameras being down SHOULD be seen as something fishy.

 

 

This sentence is voided by the fact AI's often aren't powergamers and also voided by the fact people just goes on their own business rather than follow some boring order from the AI to fix the fitness room camera and such.

 

[MarvinMartian34]

 

This sentence is voided by the fact AI's often aren't powergamers and also voided by the fact people just goes on their own business rather than follow some boring order from the AI to fix the fitness room camera and such.

If the engineers are shit (like me) then yeah the cameras won't get fixed. But it wouldn't be an issue at all if we just remove the feature and no one has to worry about downed cameras. I mean, this is a multibillion dollar (or like trillion credits because credits don't seem to be worth much like how it's 20 dollars for a box of raisins) space station. You'd think they could afford working lights.

 

[davidchan]

 

I kinda like the cameras randomly being inactive or busted, having them break for reasons during the round would be fine too, as it makes it a lot harder for the AI to Valid hunt if one camera in an area is down. Obviously, if someone cuts all cameras in a department, some cult or rev activity is probably going down, but a syndi or culti cutting one camera in a corner to give themself a blindspot to do some antag work in a specific spot is fine, cutting cameras as a nuke if you didn't take out the AI is also a good idea, since it prevents some fuckery.

 

Then again, I'm the kind of player who will cut cameras if the AI is annoying me, and if I'm RD and suspect a rogue AI you can bet your ass I'm cutting cameras around my office to stop him from fucking with the APC/Cyborg Control Console. As a cult I typically cult every camera I can access just to restrict the AIs action and involvement, good AIs will notice it quickly, but most AIs don't seem to notice they can't see half the station and assume everyone is standing in a tunnel where their cameras can't see until they finally use the jump to network verb and see that wall of static.

 

[Shadeykins]

 

To be perfectly fair regarding the AI turrets (as I was the one who was carding the AI in the instance Kluys mentioned), it's very easy to laser down the first two turrets and just manually cut through the wall and card it. The random broken cameras provide avenues of opportunity for attentive antags and don't actually detract all that much from the AI's capability.

 

It also gives engineers something to do after they set up the engine which is good, since from my observations they all seem to go SSD or do nothing related to engineering after the power is up.

 

[davidchan]

To be utterly fair, most engineers do nothing related to setting up power from the moment round starts. Most grab gloves, a hardsuit and anything else shiney laying and fuck off antag or not. I thought we had rules about playing your job/role assigned, but given the number of times I had to set up power as a scientist to find the hardsuits gone and most of the other gear too, what do I know

[Kluys]

 

As I've stated I play engineer a lot as well and I can't speak for every single person but walking down a bunch of corridors to repair one camera (which takes no effort mind you since you can just cut and mend everything) isn't fun.

Antags can disable cameras where they are by first hacking a camera and seeing what triggers the alarm. following that up by cutting a camera withouth triggering said alarm in the first place, the fact that the AI does or doesn't have broken cameras doesn't play into that.

 

[Lars]

 

I mean, this is a multibillion dollar (or like trillion credits because credits don't seem to be worth much like how it's 20 dollars for a box of raisins) space station. You'd think they could afford working lights.

 

SS13 provides a realistic simulation of working on a Corporation's roll.

 

[Shadeykins]

 

As I've stated I play engineer a lot as well and I can't speak for every single person but walking down a bunch of corridors to repair one camera (which takes no effort mind you since you can just cut and mend everything) isn't fun.

Antags can disable cameras where they are by first hacking a camera and seeing what triggers the alarm. following that up by cutting a camera withouth triggering said alarm in the first place, the fact that the AI does or doesn't have broken cameras doesn't play into that.

 

I don't find it all too boring (although it can be tedious I suppose), but fair enough. I was just trying to think up some positive net benefits, in this particular instance (with what you said) the only benefit I'd see is having an already disabled cam, with no potential to accidentally trigger a cam alarm.

 

[Sanpd]

I stated it before but I support Kluys' suggestion, while it is true the AI can be a validhunter I believe this is true for most jobs. In the end it's making one of the hardest jobs even harder.

[davidchan]

 

Antags can disable cameras where they are by first hacking a camera and seeing what triggers the alarm. following that up by cutting a camera withouth triggering said alarm in the first place, the fact that the AI does or doesn't have broken cameras doesn't play into that.

 

And ANYONE with access to a Camera monitor (3 in Security, 1 on the Bridge) can see greyed out cameras as well as a little x on the map.

 

If there is no random camera breaking, they will instantly know an antag was in that area. The only things that currently disable cameras are hacking them, explosions and EMPs. Without the cover of other cameras malfunctioning naturally or by random chance, a single cut camera is a dead give away that someone doesn't want attention in an area, making it a lightning rod for attention and valid hunting.

 

[Kluys]

 

Without the cover of other cameras malfunctioning naturally or by random chance, a single cut camera is a dead give away that someone doesn't want attention in an area, making it a lightning rod for attention and valid hunting.

 

Yes but currently this is not helped in any way since like I said most AI players who have played AI enough to know about the broken cameras will immidiately search all of those cameras.

it doesn't matter if they are repaired or not the player playing the AI at that point KNOWS what cameras are broken and what cameras are hacked later on in the round.

 

[Kevak]

 

Purrhaps instead of beginning of round camera failures, cameras should have a chance to fail throughout the round?

 

Actually, most electronics should have a tiny chance to fail during the round. Give the engineers something to do instead of faffing off.

 

[Kluys]

actually i just tested, the camera monitor straight up tells you every single broken round start camera

[davidchan]

 

But not every checks it and may forget what was what. At least it takes TIME to figure out if cameras were sabatoged, I can tell you very few AIs push for cameras to be repaired. As both AI and Warden I've pushed begged and threatened engineering and borgs to repair cameras, it never happens.

 

Having every camera starting presteen and functional will just instantly put a spotlight on one that isn't. Its annoying to have blind spots but both mechanically and storywise it makes sense for a handleful of 250 cameras to just not work. Even more so when you consider our typical engineer crews and how little they they actually do.

 

Antags have enough trouble with validhunting we don't need to make it harder for them. As it stands if the ai or security wants to use cameras to monitor the crew, they need to work to get that 100% coverage. Why make it easier for them if they can't put in the effort to take 5 minutes to fix 10 or so cameras, which the monitor shows EXACTLY where they are.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

But not every checks it and may forget what was what. At least it takes TIME to figure out if cameras were sabatoged, I can tell you very few AIs push for cameras to be repaired. As both AI and Warden I've pushed begged and threatened engineering and borgs to repair cameras, it never happens.

 

Having every camera starting presteen and functional will just instantly put a spotlight on one that isn't. Its annoying to have blind spots but both mechanically and storywise it makes sense for a handleful of 250 cameras to just not work. Even more so when you consider our typical engineer crews and how little they they actually do.

 

Antags have enough trouble with validhunting we don't need to make it harder for them. As it stands if the ai or security wants to use cameras to monitor the crew, they need to work to get that 100% coverage. Why make it easier for them if they can't put in the effort to take 5 minutes to fix 10 or so cameras, which the monitor shows EXACTLY where they are.

 

This sums up my thoughts on it quite well. Before, if an area was blacked out, anyone in the area would be vigorously questioned because someone HAD to have cut it in that general vicinity. Now? The AI may scream about it being out or that something may be going on, but security no longer has a need to throw a hissy fit over "illegitimate" actions going on in the area because there is quite a bit of plausible deniability over it naturally occurring vs being actually cut.

 

[Kluys]

 

Like I already said it doesnt matter if the engineers fix the cameras or not because the broken cameras are known by said warden or the AI, say we have 6 rooms and room 1 and 2 have a broken camera at round start, if the AI or warden have begged for this to be fixed they know for a FACT that room 1 and 2 have a broken camera since round start. If 15 minutes into the shift, room 5 has a broken camera its immidiately known that this camera is in fact cut by a person, not a random event.

 

your arguments of it causing validhunting to stop is a bit strange as well seeing how you say that noone ever checks the camera monitor.... this means that any antag doing their work properly (IE disabling a camera withouth setting of the alarm) should remain hidden for quite some time. you could then proceed to fix the validhunting problem by only greying out cameras on the camera monitor which HAVE a set alarm that way the only thing you can do to find out about a non alerted disabled camera is to either see the camera itself, attempt to access the camera via the monitor console which should just show you static or something OR by the AI suddenly noticing one of the areas has gone dark

 

Not to mention the thing I already said about the current implementation of this feature causing major issues like certain areas which should have absolute visibility having a chance of suddenly being dark from round start.

 

I'd say either remove it or disable it until it functions properly and doesn't cause major issues for the AI.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

TIL you can upgrade cameras.

 

 

But back to topic:

 

I am a huge fan of randomizing stuff on the station. I would go even further and say there should be a very slim chance for the cameras to deactivate mid game, effectivly shutting down meta gaming. But it is true that certain areas should be procted from this, obvious example the AI core, since the AI is heavly depending on it beeing working and the AI is the only one who can give access to that area.

 

Actually there should be breaking stuff on the station fairly regulary, not to annoying, just enough to make it believable that a camera or APC could break on it's own. Vendormats, apcs, a few light here and so on...

 

[Kevak]

 

TIL you can upgrade cameras.

 

 

But back to topic:

 

I am a huge fan of randomizing stuff on the station. I would go even further and say there should be a very slim chance for the cameras to deactivate mid game, effectivly shutting down meta gaming. But it is true that certain areas should be procted from this, obvious example the AI core, since the AI is heavly depending on it beeing working and the AI is the only one who can give access to that area.

 

Actually there should be breaking stuff on the station fairly regulary, not to annoying, just enough to make it believable that a camera or APC could break on it's own. Vendormats, apcs, a few light here and so on...

I second this.

 

[Kluys]

 

But back to topic:

 

Dont say that and proceed to go off topic :V

Anyhow I feel that the feature in its current state is broken seeing the issues it causes and id prefer not only cameras on the sat but also cameras in say... the captains office. To be protected.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

But back to topic:

 

Dont say that and proceed to go off topic :V

If fail to see how i am beeing off topic.

 

I am explaining that we should expand on this feature that cameras can break, which i thought would imply that we should not remove this feature.

 

Anyhow I feel that the feature in its current state is broken seeing the issues it causes and id prefer not only cameras on the sat but also cameras in say... the captains office. To be protected.

 

Removing this feature probably the same level of coding difficulty than adding a sub class like "Adv. Security Cameras" which cannot break randomly. This cameras could be simply mapped in instead of the exisiting ones. A different sprite would be cool but i don't see this as a must have. So i say we should rather fix the immediate issues instead of just removing this feature altogether and i hope we can expand on this feture in the future.

 

I don't really care where those cameras are used as long as long as they are rare enough. I used the AI core as an example because there it has much bigger implications that just beeing unable to see what's going on in the room.