AI "Nodes"

[flimflamm]

 

My idea is to allow the AI to recruit ghosts to become something I'll call an "AI Node".

 

An AI Node player will essentially be a secondary AI, bound to obey the main AI. At first any nodes will not be able to speak to crew, but if the main AI decides they are a competent Node, then they can give them the ability to speak. If the AI deems a node is faulty or incompetent, they can lock it down or purge it from their systems. If the AI is killed, all their nodes which co-exist inside of it also die.

 

The point of this is to give the AI a much more omnipresent feeling and to greatly enhance response times and action capacity. In real life an AI can converse with many people at once, perform simultaneous actions, and basically just be really quick and fast at what they do. If a main AI had one or two or three helper nodes who could respond to emergencies in the same way a normal AI would,, open doors, make responses, etc, then the strength and usefulness of the AI would be drastically increased.

 

The only real negative impact I think this might have in terms of gameplay could be during a malf AI round, the AI might simply become too powerful, being able to do too much at once. All antag rounds would be slightly affected by the increased potency of the AI, but personally I think avoiding the AI is a fundamental part of antagging, so I welcome the increased challenge.

 

Thoughts?

 

[Earthdivine]

 

My idea is to allow the AI to recruit ghosts to become something I'll call an "AI Node".

 

This right here is a very very bad idea, just for this line. Pulling from Deadchat with such loose restrictions, compared to Drones for example, is a recipe for disaster.

 

The other problem with this is this turns the AI into a massive massive powergamer and Antag hunter. You would be unable to do anything at all without severely crippling the AI's movements via laws.

 

[Plotron]

 

If you find one AI insufficient, build another one. And another one.

 

I know the pain of having a shitty/absent AI, but you can't do it this way for reasons explained above.

 

If you want to buff the AI's intel gathering capabilities, suggest an adjustable view range for it - for instance the 17x17 we used to have.

 

[Regen]

 

In real life an AI can converse with many people at once, perform simultaneous actions, and basically just be really quick and fast at what they do.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble there buddy, but AI's does not exist in real life, and if we were to try to make it realistic to "sci-fi" standards we would either make BYOND sentient or throw our computers against the walls in frustration.

 

Point being, AI right now is frustrating because of our high population, but I don't think having multiple people playing as the AI at the same time would be such a good idea, especially because time and time again everyone proves that people suck working together with people

 

[Spacemanspark]

To be fair, when robotics makes more than one AI, they tend to get along with each other almost perfectly, in my experience (Gotta love when they make five in the same round, excluding the round-start AI. :^))

[Plotron]

 

To be fair, when robotics makes more than one AI, they tend to get along with each other almost perfectly, in my experience

Same here.

 

Alternatively, you could scale the number of AI slots, so you'd have 2 AIs for 70 people, for instance, and 3 AIs for 100.

 

[BiberDark]

As i remember there was an option for 3 ai cores at roundstart . This could help in large rounds. Then the Ai have to use a intern vote to decide important questions. It sounds fun to me, as a regular Ai player.

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

In most rounds the AI is completely overwhelmed and you simply can't respond to everything in time or with the amount of communication nesseary. I don't see any other way than add more AI players, but you cannot have 3 AIs with the same level of authority. You need a strict hierarchy, one AI needs to be superior to the rest. If they get along that is great, if they don't they need a defined leader to call the shots.

 

In fact the "Sub-AIs" should basicly be cybrogs with the ability to move their vision over the entire station. So why not have a machine where cyborgs could "plug in" and be able to view the station via the cameras (like the AI). Which should be relatively easy to implement (or not?). So they can either roam the station and be a cyborg or go to the AI Minisat and help with AI-ish duties. Or a mixture of both, get a overview over the damage and then head out to repair it on site. Cyborgs would be infinitely more useful for their deparment. If security wants to track people all the time and want quick door acces in case of emergency, then get a security cyborg and send it to slot in on the AI Minisat.

 

Since this makes Cyborgs much cooler than AIs, we should also go one step further and make a Cyborg chassis for the AI itself, with the ability to jump between AI core and a cyborg chassis instantly and remotely, so the AI is still one step superior in utillity as cyborgs. Cyborgs should die if the chassis is destroyed and AIs should die if the core is destroyed.

 

 

I think this would a great way to solve this issue, while adding some awesome new stuff to synthetics. It would be very flexible, you don't get any hierarchy issues and you woudn't have rounds with 3 AIs and 0 borgs or the other way around. You can limit the amount of cyborg "plug in" machines in order to keep it balanced and not suddenly have 10 AIs eyes watching every move.

 

And i think for the amount of utillity this would add the programming tasks should be relatively straight forward, maybe except for the switching between AI eye and Cyborg, i am not sure how byond likes that. But admins could do that, so i would assume you can also make that happen automagicly.

 

[MrFinnT]

 

In most rounds the AI is completely overwhelmed and you simply can't respond to everything in time [...]

 

In fact the "Sub-AIs" should basicly be cybrogs with the ability to move their vision over the entire station. [...]

 

[...]Cyborg chassis for the AI itself, with the ability to jump between AI core and a cyborg chassis instantly and remotely[...]

 

 

i have not the same experince iwth hight populated servers as AI. in other words i can handel all task an AI gets even with many players online.

 

i like the Cyborg plug in idea.

but AI should not get their own superborg. AIs have to be defensles. otherwise its no fun if an AI can hunt Antags and as the same time stun, cuff and brig them.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

i like the Cyborg plug in idea.

but AI should not get their own superborg. AIs have to be defensles. otherwise its no fun if an AI can hunt Antags and as the same time stun, cuff and brig them.

If it makes any difference, restict the security module for the AI. Probably a good idea anyway. I just think if we make the cyborgs beeing able to view and control the station like the AI and also be able to cyborg around, then everyone wants to play cyborg and nobody would play AI.

 

I mean sure we could add special AI cyborg modul with a different (maybe restricted) toolset, but i thought just to go the easy way and use one of the existing modules.

 

[flimflamm]

 

So it seems the main objections are that recruiting from ghosts is dangerous (griefers) and that AI's might not get along.

 

I can certainly understand how ghosts might be risky, so instead the recruiting of nodes could be enabled by the AI which would open a slot at lobby screen. Alternatively AI node could have a karma requirement in addition to requiring the existing AI to allow or enable node recruitment (like posibrains).

 

As far as AI's not getting along goes, I think things would play out similar to the way borgs interact with the AI, which is generally a very obedient affair. Given that they would all have the same laws in addition to a "you must obey the main AI" law, there would be very little IC arguments between AIs and their nodes.

 

The idea of allowing borgs to have partial AI capabilities and view things over cameras would serve the intended purpose as well. Regardless of how it gets implemented, my desire is to render assistance to those AI's who sit around thanklessly opening doors all day long and the like. I know some AI's are very competent, but I'm sure we've all died waiting for a door to open, or had the HOP tell you "ask the AI to open it for you" only to have the AI be busy for 15 minutes. The reduction of AI response times would be significant, and the multi-tasking potential would potentially make for a very interesting change to way AI's currently interact with crew.

 

[Plotron]

 

The idea of allowing borgs to have partial AI capabilities and view things over cameras would serve the intended purpose as well. Regardless of how it gets implemented, my desire is to render assistance to those AI's who sit around thanklessly opening doors all day long and the like. I know some AI's are very competent, but I'm sure we've all died waiting for a door to open, or had the HOP tell you "ask the AI to open it for you" only to have the AI be busy for 15 minutes. The reduction of AI response times would be significant, and the multi-tasking potential would potentially make for a very interesting change to way AI's currently interact with crew.

"AI, WHY YOU SHOCK DOORZ?"

"AI IS ROGUE!"

"AI SABOTAGED GRAV GEN!"

"AI IS KILL SINGULO"

Two words: Emagged Borgs.

 

[Dinarzad]

 

*Raises hand*

Why not make it like the AI's version of a pAI?

You have a master to serve (The AI)

You get a limited toolset in order to prevent grief. (Although you still have cameras and comm channels maybe other assorted features depending on balance.)

 

Because in essence what I get from this idea is something to help the AI manage the sheer amount of shit that goes on, which is exactly what pAIs are meant to do for command staff, they are secreterial and help monitor radios and perform additional helpful functions to be an asset.

 

So for the core of this idea is to be something like a pAI for the Station AI to help it manage stuff.

 

EDIT: Plus as a more pAI style functionality this allows the AI to CHOOSE if it -wants- a node. Some players won't like having some ghost just pop in and get into their business, this would allow the AI to clock the node core or whatever to activate it, and similarly to wipe it if the node is being a shit-lord.

 

[flimflamm]

 

I like the idea of the node application process being like that of a pAI.

 

Node applicants will fill out a form with their name and a brief description of their experience, habits, and personality.

 

Initially nodes should only be allowed to speak with the AI and have no actual access upon recruitment by the AI. Once the AI decides to test the node or to accept it then they can allow access camera network access and if desired the ability to speak over coms.

 

[flimflamm]

 

The idea of allowing borgs to have partial AI capabilities and view things over cameras would serve the intended purpose as well. Regardless of how it gets implemented, my desire is to render assistance to those AI's who sit around thanklessly opening doors all day long and the like. I know some AI's are very competent, but I'm sure we've all died waiting for a door to open, or had the HOP tell you "ask the AI to open it for you" only to have the AI be busy for 15 minutes. The reduction of AI response times would be significant, and the multi-tasking potential would potentially make for a very interesting change to way AI's currently interact with crew.

"AI, WHY YOU SHOCK DOORZ?"

"AI IS ROGUE!"

"AI SABOTAGED GRAV GEN!"

"AI IS KILL SINGULO"

Two words: Emagged Borgs.

 

Point taken. Borgs having remote camera access wasn't my first choice anyway

 

[MrFinnT]

 

all of oyu are scared of griefers. but if someone with AI acces starts grieving an adim will see that very soon and jobban/timeout the person. problem solved.

every griefer in atmos can do shit if he wants to. but admins have an eye out for such things to prevent it.

I cant see why a AI node recruited from ghost would be any more problematic than a ghost entering a positronic brain (becoming a cyborg)

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

all of oyu are scared of griefers. but if someone with AI acces starts grieving an adim will see that very soon and jobban/timeout the person. problem solved.

every griefer in atmos can do shit if he wants to. but admins have an eye out for such things to prevent it.

I cant see why a AI node recruited from ghost would be any more problematic than a ghost entering a positronic brain (becoming a cyborg)

It's just a fact that people tend more to use drones as griff tool than flat out using the AI slot for that. Problably mostly due to the fact that they carry some meta grudges against someone or that something was unfair towards them and they can use drones to get back into that round and take some sort of revenge.

 

[Fox McCloud]

Giving the best and biggest validhunter in all the game even more tools to validhunt isn't a good idea---the more omnipresent an AI is the less and less wiggle room traitors are going to have.

[flimflamm]

 

Giving the best and biggest validhunter in all the game even more tools to validhunt isn't a good idea---the more omnipresent an AI is the less and less wiggle room traitors are going to have.

 

Yea I touched on this in my OP. (had to look up validhunting though, heh)

 

But in all honesty, I think traitors have it far too easy. Committing crimes in front of active cameras is foolish, and traitors have more tools than ever before to use skill, intelligence, and creativity to accomplish their objectives.

 

More AI nodes would mean that crimes committed on camera get caught more often, and that doors will be quicker to bolt or become electrified. It's certainly not anything insurmountable.

 

To be honest I'm more concerned about the ramifications of a malf or subverted AI with nodes. Their ability to launch a mass assault on crew would be much greater.

 

Perhaps as was suggested, server population could determine if and how many nodes are recruitable.

 

For instance, at 50 players, one AI node could become available, and then an additional AI node for every additional 15 or 20 players. That are connected. (something like that anyway). This should create a scenario where AI presence and response times scales with server population.

 

While the changes to AI balance might be a ramification to think about, it could turn out to be an interesting one, and the effect of increasing AI helpfulness to crew (which is generally the job i view them as fulfilling) would probably be very satisfying (and IC time saving!) in the long run.