PPI Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 /tg/ got it, and people can be held accountable for their actions. https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3996 https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ Among other things, it will allow for better player complaint reports, allows those who code, but are not staff, or just coders in general a easy way to access runtime logs. I think this would be really interesting to do. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharshai Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 (edited) Against it as people would potentially use logs against people ICly to metagrudge, or reveal personal IC matters. A lot of personal stuff is discussed in both msay and asay too, and I doubt many of our staff would feel comfortable with that being released publically. Edited October 18, 2015 by Guest Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeStylaLT Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 N.. No. The last thing I want is griefers having visible access to any faults in our logs without putting in any effort of testing it all out to find flaws to exploit themselves. Another thing I wouldn't want to see is all the players being able to see any and all conversations among admins and moderators in msay, asay and PMs. It would perhaps make coders' jobs easier to some extent, but most runtime logs can be detected locally anyway, along with anything else relating to most feature testing. Player complaints have always been an admin's responsibility to figure out, not a player's, the complainer providing necessary information regarding the event (name, ckey, time, date) is so far sufficient in catching the criminals, I do not think that we need to expose the entire logs with all the admin and attack logs to them so they could scour them for any nitpicks they can find to make their own case as biased as possible. An admin would just look for the facts, an upset complainer might look for anything at all to make him appear more worthy of punishment than he really is. At the end of the day, logs are very much for admin eyes only, and keeping it that way has worked so far and I don't see this change being required. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumbdumn5 Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 N.. No. The last thing I want is griefers having visible access to any faults in our logs without putting in any effort of testing it all out to find flaws to exploit themselves. Another thing I wouldn't want to see is all the players being able to see any and all conversations among admins and moderators in msay, asay and PMs. It would perhaps make coders' jobs easier to some extent, but most runtime logs can be detected locally anyway, along with anything else relating to most feature testing. Player complaints have always been an admin's responsibility to figure out, not a player's, the complainer providing necessary information regarding the event (name, ckey, time, date) is so far sufficient in catching the criminals, I do not think that we need to expose the entire logs with all the admin and attack logs to them so they could scour them for any nitpicks they can find to make their own case as biased as possible. An admin would just look for the facts, an upset complainer might look for anything at all to make him appear more worthy of punishment than he really is. At the end of the day, logs are very much for admin eyes only, and keeping it that way has worked so far and I don't see this change being required. Beat me to it. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPI Posted October 18, 2015 Author Posted October 18, 2015 msay, asay, and ahelps can be censored, in the program used, and if it's not, it can be. Regarding metagrudging, well that is bannable just like anything else, and not having something that overall will be more helpfull then not is a wrong way to hink of things. Also, regarding coders finding it locally, well they find it if they know it is actually runtiming. All that will be there is essentially admin actions and and chat. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holyass Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 No, Just No. 5 reasons. 1.exploiters. 2. metagrudging. (It will happen one way or another.) 3. Admin eyes only ( if the logs because for all to see then we will learn how the admins think and then we can change what we type to them to see if we can not get banned from doing X and not following rule X but get away with it due to we know how to reply to that admin X to soften the blow.) 4. it's freaking hard to censor stuff 5. This is just a bad Suggestion. (that and you really want to read that one time that two IPC were doing it ? I don't want to know that... lol) Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTSAM Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 [Very drawn out and flat no.] Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur_Dayne Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 First off, I don't think Paradise is /tg/. Maybe that works for them, but it might not for Paradise. Second off, no. No. No. All the other reasons have been touched upon. It could lead to metagrudging, powergaming by knowing character relationships, and just a bunch of other bad stuff. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regen Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 It would require more effort than what its worth, right now the only arguments I see for it is "Because it can be interesting" and "Because it might help coders" Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumiluntti Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 There is no reason for this to be a thing. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Dobbins Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 I'm pretty sure this thread was made a while ago. I ain't an admin, but I appreciate that logs are for staff-only. It would just lead to more shit which would make everyone's lives bad. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumiluntti Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 You would instantly lose faith in our admin team if you saw some of the puns we say in asay. The puns... my gods. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacemanspark Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 I don't really think we need this... Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belario Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 I don't see why not, the problems that might arise are nothing we don't get heaps of regardless. It's nothing ghosts don't see anyway if it's just restricted to public stuff, afterall we'd all understand why nobody'd want to reveal the sekrit admin ERP chat Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigercat2000 Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 It would require more effort than what its worth, right now the only arguments I see for it is "Because it can be interesting" and "Because it might help coders" Literally only one of those makes a lick of sense. Normal server logs contain nothing of use to a non-staff coder. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTSAM Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Okay, here's an explanation for my own "no." Anyone that needs to use it is already allowed to use it. That's all. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeletedUser Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 This suggestion.... it almost feels like y o u d o n 't t r u s t t h e a d m i n s . . . afterall we'd all understand why nobody'd want to reveal the sekrit admin ERP chat also thanks for reminding me that i need to spam-shitpost dorfs and steampunk there. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tauka Usanake Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 also thanks for reminding me that i need to spam-shitpost dorfs and steampunk there. At least until that gets turned into ERPness Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox McCloud Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Runtime logs? Sure, I'm fine with that. Game/attacks logs/etc? Nooooo. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevak Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 I am very against IC logs being public. Character rp interactions are personal. Not public. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldflame Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Anybody has access to the observe function, so game logs weren't actually private to begin with. That said, this is still probably a bad idea- admins are here for a reason, we don't need internet detectives going on crusades to try slip up players they don't like Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigercat2000 Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Anybody has access to the observe function, so game logs weren't actually private to begin with. That said, this is still probably a bad idea- admins are here for a reason, we don't need internet detectives going on crusades to try slip up players they don't like The server logs contain far more than just what observers can notice, including every action any admin makes, every single different chat including antag OOC, every single attack log from every single weapon, every punch, every disarm, every explosion. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-42990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeletedUser Posted October 22, 2015 Posted October 22, 2015 I see 2 guys in favour of it, and around 16 against it. Is it enough to /thread ? Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-43043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regen Posted October 22, 2015 Posted October 22, 2015 Yeah I don't think this requires more discussion. It's not happening, not soon anyways. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5709-make-logs-public/#findComment-43049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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