Toastadder Posted November 21, 2015 Posted November 21, 2015 I feel there is a bit of a problem on nations rounds. When cargo are frantically ordering crates, science equally working away to get an advantage and everyone else rushing to get things. Everyone but command, they can sit and wait because they know that at the end of the day they have the power to enlist as many members as they want and can prevent anybody from joining different factions/departments. This feels hugely unbalanced as they begin with the power to give all their members all access, they can go anywhere and do anything; something nobody else can do. Obviously this requires some communication between the command crew but there is nothing the other factions can do if the enemy can walk into their 'base' and do what they like; be it kill, conquer or enslave. I don't want to name names, this isn't a complaint, but I do feel that something could be done to prevent this, it really does break the gamemode balance. There is also a problem that might just be something personal, but I feel that past friendships and grudges on previous rounds can be seen on the station. I must point out that this doesn't mean everybody, the gamemode is a great idea and it's nice to see characters put in different situations and interacting with different crew members. But on the gamemode there are still people who stick together, do the same thing every nations round; it doesn't make the gamemode feel different and exciting. Instead it feels stale already, when you can join a nations round and can instantly predict what the situation is on the station. Groups like the 'NCR' have been set up roundly and this already causes loyalties and rivalries, it can really limit the originality that could be seen on nations. One last point (sorry), the A.I drones didn't work, they didn't "Subdue and detain crewmembers who use lethal force against each other. Kill crew members who use lethal force against you or your borgs.", and there was, in the last nations round at least, griefing and RDMing. This didn't get picked up and continued until round end, as an RP gamemode, there was a lot of RP but a lot of unnecessary killing and fighting. More could be done to make it a little more role play and a little lest postal. I'm sorry if this is long or if you disagree with my points but I just really want to see this gamemode develop into so much more. Obviously I can't speak for everybody (and I certainly don't) but as one guy, I just wanted to put this out there. I hope to hear back from you soon. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur_Dayne Posted November 21, 2015 Posted November 21, 2015 1. There have been 2 nation rounds so far. 2. As an RP gamemode, people are going to RP. Friendships are RP. You could say the same thing for every other round. 3. While I agree the all access for command need to be dropped, I still think they should be able to recruit people. They've got a manpower shortage they need to compensate for. 4. I think the borgs are fine. 5. I didn't see much griefing. Combat was limited in the first round, and contained to war in the second one. On a side note, I will be dropping the NCR gimmick. Overusing a gimmick is bad. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-45863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edd Posted November 21, 2015 Posted November 21, 2015 What was silly in my opinion was that Bar/Kitchen/Hydrophonics didn't form their own nation, but were part of command. I am glad to hear though that they will become one. That will be the day Las Foodas will become a real thing. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-45864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radman2307 Posted November 21, 2015 Posted November 21, 2015 I might be on my own here but I generally dislike nations rounds... I don't like the idea as a concept and almost feel it's 'forced' on the game. Just my opinion of course. I know lots of others find it entertaining but for me there is nothing RP about it. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-45901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrubmcnoob Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 I know lots of others find it entertaining but for me there is nothing RP about it. There is plenty of rp. I find that there was more RP than an average round with the diplomacy and meetings that took place in the round. Of course you are going to have those few members just wanting to murderbone, but they are usually weeded out or suppressed pretty quickly. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikecari Posted November 22, 2015 Posted November 22, 2015 Dunno, I find this new version of nations to be pretty enjoyable actually. It's also an RP gamemode so there's really no "winning" or "losing". Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SigholtStarsong Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 ...an RP gamemode ... Unless you're a borg who has to attempt to take down Command and they just flash, swipe and crowbar you, taking you offline before BEATING YOU TO DEATH. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightFire53 Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 This is true, command all access is OP against the borgs that are supposed to be the peacekeepers/UN. But note that Robotics and RD can do this too. In general, I prefer this new version of nations over the CTF one, mainly because I easily grew tired of the fact that Engi, Science and Sec murderboned because they had the cool toys, while the other departments could really only cry trying to stay alive. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radman2307 Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 I know lots of others find it entertaining but for me there is nothing RP about it. There is plenty of rp. I find that there was more RP than an average round with the diplomacy and meetings that took place in the round. Of course you are going to have those few members just wanting to murderbone, but they are usually weeded out or suppressed pretty quickly. It's a forced RP in a game that doesn't fit it's style of play... In my opinion the game mode doesn't make sense within the in game universe, it just kinda feels forced. You say there is more RP than a normal round but I disagree, I'd much sooner play a medical doctor actually working towards keeping the crew healthy and the station functioning for nanotransen than participate in a game mode where all the departments are separated off for no rational reason at all... Again it's personal preference but it's all forced. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightFire53 Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 ... than participate in a game mode where all the departments are separated off for no rational reason at all... NanoTrasen lost funding. Medical is one of those "can truly be neutral" departments in nations. The first time we ran the new nations code, Jonah/Tully and myself managed to prevent medical from going solo, and declared it neutral, and fighting had to stay outside. We had threatened to slip people out the door if they refused to obey our one rule. Oddly enough, that was the round where we overthrew the old CMO because they wanted to go break Space Geneva and voted Jonah to the CMO/PR person. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullyBBurnalot Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 We had threatened to slip people out the door if they refused to obey our one rule. And it worked. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radman2307 Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 Totally get that there's a limited story imposed to explain it all but again it feels forced - if an oil company lost funding overnight its rig workers wouldn't split off into different nations declaring independence from one another forming their own nation states - it's a goofy mechanic whichever way you look at it and doesn't fit with the world. I don't want to have a full blown row or debate over it, this is my personal preference, I tend not to play nations when it comes around as I just roll my eyes every time such a round starts - it isn't for me to put it bluntly. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkyninja Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 You could say that a Nuclear Operative team hitting the station is "forced" or that a Blob is "forced". The reality of SS13 is that while something doesn't need to go wrong, it WILL go wrong. As far as I have experienced with nations, the only REAL thing that defined what nation you belong to is personal preferance. Towards the end of the second round I was seeing people freely go to one nation or another, the little floaty things above those who start can define your nation if you want, but the removal of the CTF rules can really allow players to do whatever the fuk they want. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radman2307 Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 You could say that a Nuclear Operative team hitting the station is "forced" or that a Blob is "forced". The reality of SS13 is that while something doesn't need to go wrong, it WILL go wrong. As far as I have experienced with nations, the only REAL thing that defined what nation you belong to is personal preferance. Towards the end of the second round I was seeing people freely go to one nation or another, the little floaty things above those who start can define your nation if you want, but the removal of the CTF rules can really allow players to do whatever the fuk they want. No you couldn't because that 'fits' within the world nicely. It isn't jarring to imagine industrial espionage taking place in deep space or that a hired hit squad is out to destroy a multi-billion credit research station... It isn't jarring to believe that out in deep space some horror lurks out there which would consume all it comes into contact with forever increasing in size and mass... None of that is jarring - nations however is jarring. It doesn't logically make sense. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidNightfury Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 You're talking about a station that hires a clown and a mime that cause absolute insanity, despite being a research station. That has a personal army despite being a research station. Why? Because everyone on this station is goddamn insane. I think it fits perfectly well within the world that when the crew is told "We're dropping all of you, and stranding you on this station, don't ever come back" that they lose their shit and start drawing up battle lines. Either way, the rounds are just objectively stronger in terms of RP. This isn't a matter of opinion, the behaviour in these rounds is quantifiably more focused towards character interaction and roleplay, and I think that's a pretty great change. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullyBBurnalot Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 As much as I hate to bring up this argument, you're talking about logic in a game where people willingly turn themselves into slimes, a single slab of meat can be made into 5 steaks because !!!SCIENCE!!! and the main source of power for the station is, for all intents and purposes, a fucking black hole. Besides, as many people have pointed out, Nations 2.0 is an objectively better gamemode than Old Nations. The removal of the CTF element has actually forced people to interact meaningfully with one another, and establish relations based on these interactions. That said, screw Hulkbay. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radman2307 Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 You're talking about a station that hires a clown and a mime that cause absolute insanity, despite being a research station. That has a personal army despite being a research station. Why? Because everyone on this station is goddamn insane. I think it fits perfectly well within the world that when the crew is told "We're dropping all of you, and stranding you on this station, don't ever come back" that they lose their shit and start drawing up battle lines. Either way, the rounds are just objectively stronger in terms of RP. This isn't a matter of opinion, the behaviour in these rounds is quantifiably more focused towards character interaction and roleplay, and I think that's a pretty great change. Slimes fit, synth meat fits etc the world is a bizarre one but not one void of complete logic... You don't think deep space research stations in the future would hire people to keep their crew entertained and somewhat reasonably mentally happy? NASA has done research into mental happiness of people for this very reason. You don't believe that multi-national corporations would have their own heavily armed security teams to protect their assets? We already have this now - G4S operate their own SWAT teams, black water was a private military for hire, nothing unrealistic about that. I didn't want this to turn into a debate - I find it jarring and the concept feels forced - this is my personal opinion. I realise it's an improvement over old nations but it's still forced... Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthdivine Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 ...an RP gamemode ... Unless you're a borg who has to attempt to take down Command and they just flash, swipe and crowbar you, taking you offline before BEATING YOU TO DEATH. Turn on your shield, it makes you Flash proof. Source: Me dunking a guy who ran up to me and I just casually disabled him as he kept trying to flash me. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plotron Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 Totally get that there's a limited story imposed to explain it all but again it feels forced - if an oil company lost funding overnight its rig workers wouldn't split off into different nations declaring independence from one another forming their own nation states - it's a goofy mechanic whichever way you look at it and doesn't fit with the world. I have to agree. The argument that since everything else is more or less crazy or insane about SS13 there are can be no jarring things... doesn't convince me. Yes, the SS13 Universe is mad (bluespess logic), but you may suspend your disbelief for a moment (just like in a good Sci-Fi/Fantasy movie) for as long as other things create a cohesive/coherent world. It may have different rulesets, but you still expect people to behave like ordinary people (at least in a RP game where you have to know your character's psychological limits) so you can relate to them. People operate according to world mechanics. You use plausible world mechanics to create worlds that are relatable. How do we Sci-Fi? You take an element of the real world and use your imagination to move it far into the future, with the application of hypothetical (or physically impossible but obscure enough to suspend disbelief) scientific inventions. So we get megacorporations in space, interplanetary governments, cryonic pods and ubiquitous FTL travel. It's not "anything goes". If you're a dreamer, you could imagine a distant-future world that you'd like to live in. Nations would work great if you had at least two stations or substations which are distinct and separate (Mining Outpost would not qualify, but Research Outpost arguably could). What could be the less-forced alternative? If Command loses its not-so-divine authority to rule the station, everything becomes a matter of debate, agreement and consensus. By not calling the round "NATIONS" as if it made any sense, and not artificially putting borders and divisions between departments, maybe we could talk sense into this gamemode. Granted, most people do not require this level of "makes-sense". I respect that. Removal of CTF elements was a step in the right direction. You may call it all Space Vault 13, sure. It's not the world I and Radman are looking for, though. Disclaimer: I haven't played Nations 2.0 yet. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radman2307 Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 Totally get that there's a limited story imposed to explain it all but again it feels forced - if an oil company lost funding overnight its rig workers wouldn't split off into different nations declaring independence from one another forming their own nation states - it's a goofy mechanic whichever way you look at it and doesn't fit with the world. I have to agree. The argument that since everything else is more or less crazy or insane about SS13 there are can be no jarring things... doesn't convince me. Yes, the SS13 Universe is mad (bluespess logic), but you may suspend your disbelief for a moment (just like in a good Sci-Fi/Fantasy movie) for as long as other things create a cohesive/coherent world. It may have different rulesets, but you still expect people to behave like ordinary people (at least in a RP game where you have to know your character's psychological limits) so you can relate to them. People operate according to world mechanics. You use plausible world mechanics to create worlds that are relatable. How do we Sci-Fi? You take an element of the real world and use your imagination to move it far into the future, with the application of hypothetical (or physically impossible but obscure enough to suspend disbelief) scientific inventions. So we get megacorporations in space, interplanetary governments, cryonic pods and ubiquitous FTL travel. It's not "anything goes". If you're a dreamer, you could imagine a distant-future world that you'd like to live in. Nations would work great if you had at least two stations or substations which are distinct and separate (Mining Outpost would not qualify, but Research Outpost arguably could). What could be the less-forced alternative? If Command loses its not-so-divine authority to rule the station, everything becomes a matter of debate, agreement and consensus. By not calling the round "NATIONS" as if it made any sense, and not artificially putting borders and divisions between departments, maybe we could talk sense into this gamemode. Granted, most people do not require this level of "makes-sense". I respect that. Removal of CTF elements was a step in the right direction. You may call it all Space Vault 13, sure. It's not the world I and Radman are looking for, though. Disclaimer: I haven't played Nations 2.0 yet. Glad someone else sees it my way. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigercat2000 Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 or, maybe, you could just you know play the game enjoy the gamemode perhaps get some RP out of it from what I have heard and not throw a fit over "BUT MUH LOGIC" Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plotron Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 or, maybe, you could justyou know play the game enjoy the gamemode perhaps get some RP out of it from what I have heard and not throw a fit over "BUT MUH LOGIC" You should have written that we're talking offtopic, instead. This thread wasn't originally about RP basis for Nations, but about Nations and its quirks in practice. If it were otherwise, I would have told you that your post contributes nothing to the discussion and actually goes against the idea that we can talk and discuss various hypothetical points freely, even for the sake of mental gymnastics. To be honest, I think Radman accidentally hijacked this thread. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radman2307 Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 or, maybe, you could justyou know play the game enjoy the gamemode perhaps get some RP out of it from what I have heard and not throw a fit over "BUT MUH LOGIC" You should have written that we're talking offtopic, instead. This thread wasn't originally about RP basis for Nations, but about Nations and its quirks in practice. If it were otherwise, I would have told you that your post contributes nothing to the discussion and actually goes against the idea that we can talk and discuss various hypothetical points freely, even for the sake of mental gymnastics. To be honest, I think Radman accidentally hijacked this thread. Yeah I really didnt want to get into a debate about it if I'm being totally honest, some people like nations - others dont... I dont like it as a game mode, I find it jarring... Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/5953-nations-a-few-little-problems/#findComment-46201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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