Transfer of Consciousness a.k.a. body swapping

[Keroman]

 

So for those of you who weren't part of the discussion this suggestion comes from a discussion in minichat about the bug whereby an IPC character can be turned into an organic via a bug where an organic head placed on an IPC body transfers the consciousness of the IPC character from the positronic brain in their chest to the organic brain in the head. It was an unintended consequence of the code and never meant to be possible, but it was. In-game it was used both legitimately (for RP purposes) as well as illegitimately (to force two IPC players into organic bodies against their will). I am 100% in favor of the bug being fixed and there is a pull request on the Github at this very moment which will, ideally, close that loophole.

 

What I would like to suggest is for some legitimate in-game means for bodyswaps to take place regardless of species. Currently there are 2 different "types" of brains - organic and synthetic - and within the organic category there are regular organic brains and then there are slime cores which are organic but function slightly differently than other organic brains.

 

It is entirely possible to do body swaps between organic species with little to no effort. I've seen any number of these, including someone turning a Vox Raider into a humanized wolpin.

 

It is also entirely possible to do bodyswaps between IPCs by switching around their posibrains. In fact I would argue it's simpler to do so for IPCs than for organics.

 

What there is NOT, however, is a method for transferring an IPC mind into an organic body (legitimately), nor is there a way to transfer an organic mind into an IPC body.

 

I would argue that allowing for such things to happen does not force anyone to play a species they don't want to play. I would fully support the process being 100% voluntary. Allowing players to body-swap into a Karma-locked race is very much not the same thing as allowing them to play a Karma-locked job. If anything it would allow a player to try out a Karma-locked race prior to buying it so they know what they're getting into. From an RP perspective it allows for some interesting player interaction to take place, and I believe it fits with the theme of the NSS Cyberiad as a "scientific" vessel setting out to do research on all manner of things from plasma to supermatter.

 

Currently it is possible to put an organic brain into synthetic bodies only in a limited matter (cyborgs, spiderbots, and AI cores). It is also possible to transfer the consciousness from an AI core to an Intellicard. This means that currently in the game in a non-exploit manner you can turn an organic consciousness into a synthetic one. The problem is that Intellicards can only transfer the consciousness to and from an AI Core and not anything else. You could, theoretically, have one AI built from a posibrain and one AI built from an organic brain and swap the two around, however there is currently no means of removing the brain from the AI core to do something else with it.

 

I would say that having some sort of console available, even if it's only available from R&D as a circuit board to start with, that could read the consciousness from an organic brain (in an MMI) and transfer it to a positronic brain and vice versa. The protolathe can print out posibrains and MMIs already and Genetics can create any number of humanized creatures to nab brains from. I would also recommend adding the ability to make an IPC torso in the exosuit fabricators in robotics so that no IPC ever has to sacrifice their body to allow someone else to play an IPC.

 

The process of body-swapping should NOT be an easy one. It should be a frankensteinian mashup of several different departments working together to make it happen and it should take a significant amount of work and time to be done. In this way it would prevent players from turning themselves into an IPC or other karma-locked race every round simply to avoid paying the Karma cost to unlock it.

 

I know there are people out there who dislike the idea and I do want to hear from you, but I also want to be very clear about my intentions here so let me reiterate the following:

 

• - I support the removal of the current exploit that allows IPCs to be turned into organics

  - I would prefer that any sort of body-swap procedure be 100% voluntary.

  - I believe that the in-game lore supports the existence of such a procedure.

  - My main goal in having something like this added to the game is to open up more options for players to try new races that would otherwise be unavailable to them. More options for players are a good thing. Creating more RP opportunities for players is a good thing.

 

 

[NTSAM]

 

I like this idea better than whatever it was Kevak was going on about with a tool, i guess.

doesn't mean i'd ever make my cute little tv guy a human though

 

I do think that IPC bodies should take a little bit of research and materials before they're made. You shouldn't just be able to poop out human mobs from Robotics like you can with borgs.

 

Also the 100% voluntary thing is good, you shouldn't just force people to be a species they don't want, that was my main complaint

 

NOTE: Wouldn't IPC lore also need a slight bit of shifting around with to get this to work? Would organic-to-synthies be treated like a pariah or something?

 

Edited December 17, 2015 by Guest

[Spacemanspark]

 

One thing I'd add to this- if the posibrain/ MMI that is inserted says 'no' approximately three times to the popup or whatever it is that comes up asking about the transfer, it should eject the brain, and not allow it to be re-inserted (at least for a short period of time). I guarantee there will be at least one person that will spam it over and over again until the brained person accepts.

That being said, as long as this is consensual, I'm 100% alright with this.

 

[Keroman]

 

Agreed, Spacemanspark. Also I worry about an accidental confirm of a pop-up box as happens sometimes when you're trying to say something while someone is trying to hand something to you.

 

And NTSAM, as far as creating IPC bodies I would say it should have a fairly high cost even in a fully-upgraded exosuit fabricator. As high as the cost for some of the higher tier mechs like a Phazon or Durand, maybe. It really depends on what sort of materials the lore says are used in IPC construction. I could see diamonds, gold, and silver being used for circuitry within an IPC torso.

 

Edited December 17, 2015 by Guest

[Spacemanspark]

Maybe put it as a link in the chat, similar to pAI's or Posibrains for ghosts.

[Keroman]

 

I like this idea better than whatever it was Kevak was going on about with a tool, i guess.

doesn't mean i'd ever make my cute little tv guy a human though

 

I do think that IPC bodies should take a little bit of research and materials before they're made. You shouldn't just be able to poop out human mobs from Robotics like you can with borgs.

 

Also the 100% voluntary thing is good, you shouldn't just force people to be a species they don't want, that was my main complaint

 

NOTE: Wouldn't IPC lore also need a slight bit of shifting around with to get this to work? Would organic-to-synthies be treated like a pariah or something?

 

Yes, an IPC torso shouldn't be available until a higher tier level of research has been reached. Some players are capable of maxing out R&D in under 20 minutes so this should not prove to be much of an obstacle to the process, but it will force the method to be drawn out a little more (which, as I said in the original post, is a good thing).

 

There's already a baseline of cost for other IPC parts like the optical sensor and IPC head and such so we can use that information to decide on a reasonable cost for an IPC torso. I could imagine it requiring a decent amount of silver, gold, and diamonds for the complex inner-circuitry of an IPC torso.

 

As far as lore goes there's already a wide range of IPC personalities. As it is already I think there's two main schools of thought regarding IPC-to-organic body swapping:

A) Why would you do that? Synthetics are superior than any organic. I'm going to shun you now because you made a terrible choice.

B) What's it like being organic? How do you feel? Do you think it's better or worse than being synthetic? Do you want to be changed back?

 

There would definitely be push-back from some IPCs, and that's totally fine from an RP standpoint. I like to think that there would be a number of IPCs who would RP that curiosity about organic life, maybe up to the point where they would try out the procedure themselves to see what it's like. Maybe it could even lead to a special Admin-approved event where an IPC goes organic and then goes murder-crazy as they deal with the sudden influence of emotions.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

Yandere (at least I think that's the term for a creepy anime girl that goes on a killing spree) IPC human abomination.

You won't see me do it, but it'd be amusing.

 

[Kevak]

R&Dwise, I'm thinking printing an IPC torso should need Data 7, Mat 6/7, Engineering 6, Electromag 6/7 and Power 8. I mean, it's literally bringing someone into the round as a full character. Putting it behind the More Then Maxed tier of R&D (That otherwise serves no purpose anyways besides something for completionists to do. ) Probably should make the chassis cost exorbitant amounts of diamond and gold though (10-20 sheets per?). Again, it's bringing someone into the round as a full character. Diona have the same thing with botany, but that's limited by botanist competence (3 normally, around 18 if Robust harvest is used, infinite if science rolls Diona Nymph on the Experimentor strange object animal spawner.) and the fact that playing as a Nymph tends to be more fun for some people then playing as a Gestalt. (Prolly due to the slowness of Gestalts and the lack of jobs they can convince the HoP to assign them to based on personal experience.)

[NTSAM]

 

R&Dwise, I'm thinking printing an IPC torso should need Data 7, Mat 6/7, Engineering 6, Electromag 6/7 and Power 8. I mean, it's literally bringing someone into the round as a full character. Putting it behind the More Then Maxed tier of R&D (That otherwise serves no purpose anyways besides something for completionists to do. ) Probably should make the chassis cost exorbitant amounts of diamond and gold though (10-20 sheets per?). Again, it's bringing someone into the round as a full character. Diona have the same thing with botany, but that's limited by botanist competence (3 normally, around 18 if Robust harvest is used, infinite if science rolls Diona Nymph on the Experimentor strange object animal spawner.) and the fact that playing as a Nymph tends to be more fun for some people then playing as a Gestalt. (Prolly due to the slowness of Gestalts and the lack of jobs they can convince the HoP to assign them to based on personal experience.)

 

 

I agree.

 

[Fox McCloud]

Just throwing this out there---the general consensus is that it would be very very bad to allow robotics to pump out IPCs at any point.

[Keroman]

That's fair enough. Is there a way to differentiate players who joined as a "free-willed human mob" (i.e. joining the server as one of their characters) from players who join the game via a positronic brain activated partway through the round?

[Dumbdumn5]

It's mostly churning out a karma locked race, not just replacement factors or ID

[Spacemanspark]

 

Then make it so only those that started out or latejoined as an IPC can be placed in.

Any other posibrain that's placed in could probably say "This posibrain's enslavement protocols activate, and prevent you from inserting it into the torso!" and return.

And it would reject MMI's and other brains by default, of course.

 

[Crazylemon]

 

Just throwing this out there---the general consensus is that it would be very very bad to allow robotics to pump out IPCs at any point.

Sorry for prying, but I take it the consensus is among admins?

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

Just throwing this out there---the general consensus is that it would be very very bad to allow robotics to pump out IPCs at any point.

Sorry for prying, but I take it the consensus is among admins?

He edited his statement from 'WE'RE NEVER DOING THIS' to 'The general consensus is...' which kinda makes me think in the opposite direction.

Not trying to come off as an asshole by saying that, I'm just pointing out how I perceive that.

 

[Holyass]

 

Just throwing this out there---the general consensus is that it would be very very bad to allow robotics to pump out IPCs at any point.

Sorry for prying, but I take it the consensus is among admins?

He edited his statement from 'WE'RE NEVER DOING THIS' to 'The general consensus is...' which kinda makes me think in the opposite direction.

Not trying to come off as an asshole by saying that, I'm just pointing out how I perceive that.

 

 

oh? >.> now i wonder what go on in the admin chat room....

 

 

Anyways we need to make IPC hard to make but not too hard cuz if it's just too hard then most are just going to give up on doing it.

 

and the cost can be super high cuz to if mining really want to mine then they will being in soo much they can build another station if they want.

 

[NTSAM]

Spark's idea is a good one.

[Kevak]

Would it be possible for it to check for people who have IPC unlocked as a karma race rather then just people who joined as an IPC?

[NTSAM]

 

Would it be possible for it to check for people who have IPC unlocked as a karma race rather then just people who joined as an IPC?

 

I thought that was what Spacemanspark said, that sounds definitely better if I was misreading his though.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

Would it be possible for it to check for people who have IPC unlocked as a karma race rather then just people who joined as an IPC?

 

I thought that was what Spacemanspark said, that sounds definitely better if I was misreading his though.

You did, and this might work better.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

Well uhhh... the goal was sort of.. to.... uhhh....

Never really do that mainly because it'd be like taking the 45 cost karma races that people work at getting and then allowing people to flop into a body because somebody else could easily create a new body or have difficulty making a new body via process X. Yes, it's only 15 karma, but it's still a karma race that has unique traits that players are sort of expected to earn, learn, and deal with. Sort of like handing somebody a karma role like mechanic, pod pilot, or magistrate for a test run, even though other players had to spend time and at least gain enough karma to get the role in the first place. Most people take quite a long time to do this in the first place, which is why we have wiki articles on such topics, albeit I have to admit, there's no good way to check something out unless you experience it for yourself. They're usually locked behind karma due to a higher expected roleplaying curve or a different type of expectation for the role itself. That and a sense of accomplishment when you get said race.

 

 

Also note that you can't actually transfer into slime people, as they do not have an area for a brain, positronic or otherwise.

 

EDIT: In addition, wouldn't locking it to be players who have the race unlocked or start as the race sort of be redundant ,as most of the time you'll only actually be able to utilize this when the body is completely and totally destroyed, yet the brain is still intact, which rarely, if ever, happens enough for it to be a reasonable cause for allowing robotics to construct such a piece of equipment? Not sure if it'd be any different than just joining as the race and trying to not die.

 

[Spacemanspark]

[spoiler2]I still think that the karma cost should be raised for IPC's, honestly.[/spoiler2]

[Fox McCloud]

 

Just throwing this out there---the general consensus is that it would be very very bad to allow robotics to pump out IPCs at any point.

Sorry for prying, but I take it the consensus is among admins?

 

Among the coders and maintainers.

 

Also note that you can't actually transfer into slime people, as they do not have an area for a brain, positronic or otherwise.

 

They have a slime core, which is functionally the same thing.

 

[Keroman]

 

Well one of the big reasons I advocated for the ability to create IPCs from scratch (and to potentially make it possible to transfer a consciousness into a slime core too) was so that players could get a chance to test-drive a karma-locked race before actually buying it.

 

The process is intentionally drawn out and involves several departments working on it so that it's not something someone could do every single round. The conditions would have to be right:

 

- R&D would need the research levels maxed to create the circuit board for the (example name) Mind Transfer console. Some of the faster players could do this in, say, 20 minutes at the start of the round.

- Genetics would need to create a body (if the transferred mind is going into an organic body).

- R&D would need the material for a posi-brain (if the transferred mind is going into an IPC body).

- Robotics would need the material for an entire IPC body (again, if the transferred mind is going into an IPC body).

- Xenobiology would need to open up a dead slime and pull out a slime core (if the transferred mind is going into a slime person).

- A surgeon would need to remove the original brain and place it into an MMI. The MMI would go into the Mind Transfer console. The "input" brain (Posibrain, Slime Core, etc.) and the console would need to be activated. We could set this to any length of time we want, say 5 minutes per Mind Transfer.

- A surgeon or roboticist would then put the new brain/slime core/posibrain into the appropriate body.

 

This is a lot of stuff that needs to happen even when you account for removing the steps that are specific to a synthetic or organic when they don't apply. Some of these things CANNOT be done concurrently, either, further extending the process.

 

I would say, as a rough estimate, that if all parties involved got to work at the very start of the round the first Mind Transfers would not be happening until 40 minutes in. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of the time something else will pop up that requires the attention of someone involved. Bombings, blob attacks, various involved personnel getting abducted and killed by syndies/lings/cultists/etc.

 

Even if everything went perfectly the people swapping into the karma-locked races would only get to play as them for a little more than half the round.

 

Personally I believe it's worth putting that sort of effort in to allow people to an in-character chance to try out a few karma-locked races before spending their hard-earned karma on them. If nothing else it makes for some fun RP as they figure out the strange nuances of a new body.

 

Now I fully understand that my word doesn't count for much here so if the final decision is no then there's not a lot I can do about it. I also understand it would take a decent amount of coding and there are other important things to work on. I hope that one day this feature or something similar to it can be added in a way that everyone can agree with.

 

[Holyass]

mmm well I agree that we need a way for trying out a new race in a some what friendly no killing station and try to learn the new race and if they like it then they can save up the karma for them then but a easy way to keep from just swaping bodys each round is if they doing it each round then the admin can warn them and even force them back into their old body and if they keep up then a one day day.