Rules on contraband, validhunting/vigilantism & enemy of NT

[alexpkeaton]

 

This might kick a hornets' nest, but I think it's rather important. And I'd appreciate help boiling down my dissertations to (if possible) usable rules (I have diarrhea of the keyboard, sorry).

 

I just finished a round where a number of people I greatly respect on this server became divided over whether possession of a holoparasite made someone an antagonist. One side, consisting of security borgs, the AI and the HoP, accused three implanted people and the CE as syndicate collaborators due to them deciding to play basketball on the holodeck with the person with the holoparasite. Let me reiterate, these weren't random visitors but server regulars who abide by the rules. While there are some disputes of fact (holoparasites were claimed later in OOC to be exclusive to antag while they can be legitimately found in mining), it doesn't escape the fact that an antagonist was suspected purely because of meta knowledge of syndicate operatives.

 

Rules are foggy when it comes to this, and ultimately, (to my knowledge, anyway) no one did anything worthy of admin interference. While characters are encouraged to not be "Mary Sues," characters are allowed to have as little or as much knowledge of antagonists as they wish to have. That's just the way it is and the way it apparently has been.

 

I think the rules provide way too much wiggle room in this regard, and if not enforcing a higher level of RP regarding this, some protections should be built into space law to protect antags from validgaming, being tagged as antagonist simply because of possession of something without any hostile action. I think there needs to be a discussion about several things to help facilitate this, and the first is

 

Contraband

 

I propose the following rule:

 

Possession of an item deemed to be contraband does not, alone, indicate an intent of any kind. Items considered to be contraband are routinely found in maintenance areas, distributed by supply, dropped by others, made in science or found on the mining asteroid/in the gateway/in space (especially the last of these). Therefore, players must exercise a certain restraint regarding confronting those possessing items normally associated with antagonists or antag play. Ideally, players should report sightings of contraband to security and allow them to handle the matter exclusively. Items that are not of a weapon variety can be confiscated by security. Characters that wish to take the law into their own hands may ultimately be found guilty IC of any assault/theft/murder committed during an attempt to apprehend or any assist to the apprehension of someone who possesses contraband without hostile acts. This is regardless of whether the character possessing the contraband actually is an antagonist or eventually found guilty IC of anything. Additionally, admins reserve the right to take action against players who violate this rule.

 

Space Law corollary: Without witnessed hostility or other evidence, it shall be an affirmative defense against possession of contraband for a (miner/gateway explorer/space explorer) to claim items found on their person or on another person as originating during exploration and found by them. That said, it should be considered a "best practice" for miners to notify the QM, and explorers to contact their head should they acquire any perceived contraband aboard the asteroid. In turn, the QM/head should notify security if any potential problem with security is foreseen. Items declared in this fashion and found to be reasonable shall be considered legal to carry aboard the station unless specifically exempted by the Captain or Magistrate (and the Magistrate has appeal/overruling authority over the Captain in such a case). Whenever possible, the rights of miners/explorers to keep/distribute/sell items found while mining/exploring should be preserved.

 

----

 

Now, for a crack at the toughest one...

 

Validhunting

 

I propose the following rule:

 

Validhunting/Validgaming/Vigilantism - in real life, the police investigate crime, and the district attorneys prosecute the offenders (*dong dong*). So should be the case in game: if you are not security and do not find yourself eyewitness to a hostile act in-progress, you should not directly involve yourself in any apprehension of a suspected criminal. If you see someone security is looking for, notify security. While your main motivation does not need to be self-preservation (i.e. running away if near to a suspected antagonist), you should be able to be described in the end by authority as being a "good samaritan" and not a "vigilante." A "good samaritan" calls for help first if at all possible, a "vigilante" will not. A "good samaritan" will seek to contain, disarm and detain a suspected criminal. A "vigilante" will seek to terminate the criminal. A "good samaritan" allows security to take over a situation when they are on scene. A "vigilante" will not be affected by any arrival of authority to the situation. A "good samaritan" avoids lethal force except when someone else will lose their life due to their inaction. A "vigilante" aims for maximum damage, regardless of lethality. If you do not avoid a confrontation, be the good samaritan in it.

 

In the end, be prepared that any action you take as non-security to subdue a suspected criminal/antag can ultimately be adjudicated IC and by admins as being in violation of Space Law/The Rules. Someone's crimes or antag status does not necessarily shield you from being arrested and charged with any assault/theft/damage/murder you may have committed, even those against a suspect eventually charged with a crime. Like in real life, be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions. Remember rule 3: Play the role you've chosen. If you're not security, don't act like security. Instead, give them the information to allow them to be more effective. You'll help them, and they'll help you. Acts that defy one's role (and/or are acts of excessive violence, a violation of rule 4) appearing to be vigilantism are subject to admin intervention.

 

 

---

 

Enemy of the Corporation

 

Finally, and I shamelessly borrow this from TullyBBurnalot, but there needs to be a rewording of the "Enemy of the Corporation Law" As Tully put it (here: http://nanotrasen.se/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4638):

 

I came up with an idea for reworking Corp Enemy:

 

Crime Name: Enemy of Nanotrasen

 

Crime Severity: Capital

 

Punishment: Permabrig/Execution/Borgification

 

Description: To be legally proven to either be working for a known hostile corporation (ie: Syndicate), or to be working to undermine Nanotrasen's operations. In order to apply for this crime, enough forensic/legal evidence must be provided that the criminal has actually done anything worthy of being called a crime. Should the suspect be found to have been contracted by an Enemy of Nanotrasen, but to not actually have done anything, they are to be stripped of their rank, have all items confiscated, and be given a tracking implant. Executions done under this law without proper legal/forensic justification are to be considered murder.

 

 

I think that pretty well sums it up.

 

I think that validhunting is a real problem precisely because the rules are so unclear about it. I doubt my wording is any more clear, but I hope there might be at least a jumping off point for some rewording and discussion and some action taken here to ensure that "validhunting" can be reduced.

 

tl;dr: I have diarrhea of the keyboard; we need to differentiate simple possession of contraband from hostile intent/antag IDing based on meta knowledge; validhunting can be reduced if we enforce Rule 3 better and redefine validhunting as vigilantism, adopt Tully's modification to Enemy of the Corp.

 

[Habalabam]

 

I do think items, such as an emag, is evidence of intent of hacking. It is also evidence that you are somehow connected to contacts allowing you to obtain it. I see no foundation for the idea that you found syndicate items by accident. These are used by trained enemy operatives. They are not commonly found.

IRL, posession of a drug is evidence of habit of use and a larger amount is evidence of intent to sell.

 

I do think people on a space station would react to what is a clear threat to the station. They are directly affected by a malfunctioning AI, Syndicate operatives, a predatorial species such as a changeling etc. This is not comparable to IRL police. Besides, they have signed up with NT and it's not unreasonable that they swallowed the company cool-aid. I think it is OK that they respond to threats, but their initial diligence at round start before the first alert or PA message cannot be explained.

 

To me, this is about people who would better off playing the free form role as security officers, but find it too hard, disdains the required discipline and/or wants to opt out of the abuse. It's much easier being the chemist, hoarding up tactical recipes and go out looking without the restrictions of a member of the security team.

 

I suspect that if you ask people on a heavy RP server, that this server is what they consider to be (very) light RP. On a heavy RP server, it's unheard of that a nurse performs surgery as well as a surgeon. On this server roles like a scientist comes, under the guise of being "medium RP", with basically no strings attached.

Of course it becomes the preferable option to those vetted out by the security force.

 

[SigholtStarsong]

 

One side, consisting of security borgs, the AI and the HoP

 

And the Captain, who had actually issued a Kill On Sight order.

 

...accused three implanted people and the CE as syndicate collaborators due to them deciding to play basketball on the holodeck with the person with the holoparasite.

 

All of whom were actively interfering in the handling of someone who was kill / detain on sight.

 

 

Let me reiterate, these weren't random visitors but server regulars who abide by the rules.

 

As far as I know, all players are administrated upon equally when it comes down to it - being a regular doesn't exempt you from certain standards of behavior.

 

While there are some disputes of fact (holoparasites were claimed later in OOC to be exclusive to antag while they can be legitimately found in mining)

 

No, they're not. Guardians (Such as the Scarab) are, yes, found randomly in mining. However, Holoparasites are strictly Syndicate tech - As evidenced by the following passage from the Wiki.

 

Magical decks of tarot cards can be used summon a spirit from beyond the veil to aid you. These decks are most commonly found in the possession of members of the wizard federation. Holoparasite injectors created by the Syndicate and purchased with a traitor uplink can be used to manifest a nanomachine based creature. Lastly, a swarm of parasitic insects can take up residence within an individual forming a nest within them. Unhatched eggs of these insects are sometimes found around asteroids.

 

Possession of an item deemed to be contraband does not, alone, indicate an intent of any kind.

 

This statement alone pretty much says "Oh, you saw a guy in a red hardsuit with an ominous beacon? Can you prove he's going to kill anyone?" and if they can,THEN Security can actually do something.

 

Without witnessed hostility or other evidence, it shall be an affirmative defense against possession of contraband for a (miner/gateway explorer/space explorer) to claim items found on their person or on another person as originating during exploration and found by them.

 

This specifically goes against Possession of a Restricted Weapon (303) or Possession of Explosives (304). If you walk onto the station with Gibtonite, which is a restricted explosive, they can't do anything against you because it's contraband without witnessed hostility or other evidence.

 

You also open up the door for Miners/Gateway Explorers/Space Explorers who are antags to basically roam around armed to the teeth and there's nothing Sec can do about it.

 

 

The quote below has text that has been bolded for emphasis.

Validhunting/Validgaming/Vigilantism - in real life, the police investigate crime, and the district attorneys prosecute the offenders (*dong dong*).So should be the case in game: if you are not security and do not find yourself eyewitness to a hostile act in-progress, you should not directly involve yourself in any apprehension of a suspected criminal.

 

While normally inadvisable to involve yourself in a police/Security situation, there is the matter of Citizen's Arrest, such as in California here in the US:

 

A private person may arrest another:

 

[*]For a public offense committed or attempted in his/her presence.

[*]When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in his or her presence.

[*]When a felony has been in fact committed, and he or she has reasonable cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.

 

Basically, regular persons are able to arrest a wanted fugitive if they have reasonable cause to do so.

But since the server is in Sweden, let's take a look at what Swedish law has to say on the matter:

 

Any person may arrest someone in the act of committing a crime, or fleeing from the crime scene, if the crime committed is punishable by imprisonment. A person wanted by the police, for whom there is an arrest warrant, can be arrested by anyone at any time. After the arrest, the police must be contacted as soon as possible.

 

If you see someone security is looking for, notify security. While your main motivation does not need to be self-preservation (i.e. running away if near to a suspected antagonist), you should be able to be described in the end by an authority as being a "good samaritan" and not a "vigilante." A "good samaritan" calls for help first if at all possible, a "vigilante" will not. A "good samaritan" will seek to contain, disarm and detain a suspected criminal. A "vigilante" will seek to terminate the criminal. A "good samaritan" allows security to take over a situation when they are on scene. A "vigilante" will not be affected by any arrival of authority to the situation. A "good samaritan" avoids lethal force except when someone else will lose their life due to their inaction. A "vigilante" aims for maximum damage, regardless of lethality. If you do not avoid a confrontation, be the good samaritan in it.

 

There are situations where going non-lethal isn't an option - For example, Nuclear Operatives, Vox Raiders, Hungry Hungry Wiznerd, or (emerged) Shadowlings - because those antags are as likely to kill you as soon as look at you.

 

I apologize if I have misinterpreted any of your points or have insinuated anything other than the deepest respect and eagerly await your reply.

 

[Da Dman234]

 

 

Now, for a crack at the toughest one...

 

Validhunting

 

I propose the following rule:

 

Validhunting/Validgaming/Vigilantism - in real life, the police investigate crime, and the district attorneys prosecute the offenders (*dong dong*). So should be the case in game: if you are not security and do not find yourself eyewitness to a hostile act in-progress, you should not directly involve yourself in any apprehension of a suspected criminal. If you see someone security is looking for, notify security. While your main motivation does not need to be self-preservation (i.e. running away if near to a suspected antagonist), you should be able to be described in the end by authority as being a "good samaritan" and not a "vigilante." A "good samaritan" calls for help first if at all possible, a "vigilante" will not. A "good samaritan" will seek to contain, disarm and detain a suspected criminal. A "vigilante" will seek to terminate the criminal. A "good samaritan" allows security to take over a situation when they are on scene. A "vigilante" will not be affected by any arrival of authority to the situation. A "good samaritan" avoids lethal force except when someone else will lose their life due to their inaction. A "vigilante" aims for maximum damage, regardless of lethality. If you do not avoid a confrontation, be the good samaritan in it.

 

In the end, be prepared that any action you take as non-security to subdue a suspected criminal/antag can ultimately be adjudicated IC and by admins as being in violation of Space Law/The Rules. Someone's crimes or antag status does not necessarily shield you from being arrested and charged with any assault/theft/damage/murder you may have committed, even those against a suspect eventually charged with a crime. Like in real life, be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions. Remember rule 3: Play the role you've chosen. If you're not security, don't act like security. Instead, give them the information to allow them to be more effective. You'll help them, and they'll help you. Acts that defy one's role (and/or are acts of excessive violence, a violation of rule 4) appearing to be vigilantism are subject to admin intervention.

 

 

---

 

 

Right, so the main problem I see with enforcing a ValidHunting rule is the difficulty in deciding between "good samaritans" and "Vigilantes" for the administrators. If they arrive on a scene at a glance they won't know if someone specifically hunted down said antag, or are just trying to defend themselves/coworkers/workstation. So it's a difficult rule to enforce.

 

There's also the fact that on low-pop rounds with one or two sec officers, they cannot feasibly catch say, a wizard, by themselves. And what if the few officers on the force die? Then who takes over as security and hunts down the wizard, do the rules change then?

 

I'm not against the rule, there are just a few problems with enforcing it.

 

[Habalabam]

 

What people do when security force is scarce or incapacitated? Well, sign up as security officers.

Security officers going to SSD cryo in full tactical gear get a job ban warning.

 

Separating vigilantes from good samaritans sounds like the in-game responsibility of the security force. Not an admin job unless the means are unrealistically excessive. In terms of eg lings, I don't know if you can ever call a response excessive. The point would be much more about the "hunting" part of "validhunting", not what they did after locating it.

 

To me, the thing is that most other jobs (except as department head) come with very little strings attached (as we are a "medium" RP server), and are thus, from a practical POV, the more convenient platform from which to hunt for antags than as a security officer.

 

If you are geneticist, you expect to unlock abiilties and then putting them to use however you see fit. I rarely see a geneticist unlocking abilities, making a clear report to CMO and then stick around to cure disabilities, clone DOA's and make a restricted set of SE injectors for the CoC to manage.

 

[alexpkeaton]

 

SigholtStarsong, I don't want to relitigate that round. That would derail the good here, and that is to provide clarity so that disagreements between us regulars just don't happen. You did misinterpret my motive for saying

 

Let me reiterate, these weren't random visitors but server regulars who abide by the rules.

 

I was pointing out that the oddity of the situation - here we had a group of server regulars who know the rules inside and out, and there's still a hole in the rules large enough to drive a truck through. Agree with me or not, this is a good reason for there to be more clarity. And I agree with you that regulars should be held to the standard of good play just as much if not moreso than random visitors. We know the rules and are expected to play by them. No one among us can claim ignorance.

 

While there are some disputes of fact (holoparasites were claimed later in OOC to be exclusive to antag while they can be legitimately found in mining)

No, they're not. Guardians (Such as the Scarab) are, yes, found randomly in mining. However, Holoparasites are strictly Syndicate tech - As evidenced by the following passage from the Wiki.

Magical decks of tarot cards can be used summon a spirit from beyond the veil to aid you. These decks are most commonly found in the possession of members of the wizard federation. Holoparasite injectors created by the Syndicate and purchased with a traitor uplink can be used to manifest a nanomachine based creature. Lastly, a swarm of parasitic insects can take up residence within an individual forming a nest within them. Unhatched eggs of these insects are sometimes found around asteroids.

 

Should meta knowledge such as this really be employed? A guardian is holographic and not an actual parasite, and that's enough to unleash the validhunting greytide?

 

I'm not being sarcastic - I'm really asking. Should a character really have a complete mental inventory of all the things exclusive to the PDA uplink without having at least reasonable doubt that it may be found legitimately aboard the station, while mining or in space? Right now, characters very much can (and as we both know, do) do this. That's why I try to separate possession from intent. Of course there are situations like...

 

Oh, you saw a guy in a red hardsuit with an ominous beacon? Can you prove he's going to kill anyone?" and if they can,THEN Security can actually do something.

 

Yes, there are some times where it's obvious. Nuke ops. Crypto sequencers that aren't toys. These represent obvious syndies and their handiwork. What I'm talking about are the times when it's not so obvious. For example, ordering kill-on-sight upon someone not actively hostile for having a holoparasite.

 

That runs a few red lights of logic, in my opinion. And, that's a great way to demonstrate how Tully's modification of the Enemy of the Corp law would be valuable.

 

Description: To be legally proven to either be working for a known hostile corporation (ie: Syndicate), or to be working to undermine Nanotrasen's operations. In order to apply for this crime, enough forensic/legal evidence must be provided that the criminal has actually done anything worthy of being called a crime. Should the suspect be found to have been contracted by an Enemy of Nanotrasen, but to not actually have done anything, they are to be stripped of their rank, have all items confiscated, and be given a tracking implant. Executions done under this law without proper legal/forensic justification are to be considered murder.

 

If this were the law of the land (and it's not, but let's play pretend), the librarian with the holoparasite would be stripped of his job, his items would be confiscated, he'd be given a tracking implant and allowed to play basketball. After the law is done with him, if any greytide decides to take matters into their own hands, they can be charged with murder (or whatever they do). You may not agree that a syndie should be able to walk like that, but at least the matter is clear-cut from the standpoint of the rules. Plus, it allows for a little more RP, what many of us regulars appreciate anyway.

 

Without witnessed hostility or other evidence, it shall be an affirmative defense against possession of contraband for a (miner/gateway explorer/space explorer) to claim items found on their person or on another person as originating during exploration and found by them.

This specifically goes against Possession of a Restricted Weapon (303) or Possession of Explosives (304). If you walk onto the station with Gibtonite, which is a restricted explosive, they can't do anything against you because it's contraband without witnessed hostility or other evidence.

 

I'm not talking about gibtonite. Plus, SoP and space law are clear and specific regarding gibtonite. You don't bring it aboard. It's not specific about things like guardians. Perhaps miners shouldn't bring guardians found on the asteroid outside of cargo. That element of SoP is absent. That's why I briefly suggest an addition to SoP that miners/explorers should formally declare any found items to their superior before bringing them aboard. That way, anything that shouldn't be on the station can be left outside of it. Found a facehugger? Great. Don't bring it aboard in a locker. Stuff like that.

 

Any person may arrest someone in the act of committing a crime, or fleeing from the crime scene, if the crime committed is punishable by imprisonment. A person wanted by the police, for whom there is an arrest warrant, can be arrested by anyone at any time. After the arrest, the police must be contacted as soon as possible.

 

That's pretty much exactly the intention of my "good samaritan" vs. "vigilante" shtick. Note the difference with CA's citizen's arrest law. The citizen's arrest allows someone to arrest on suspicion. Sweden does not. You can arrest as a citizen if you saw something happen, see them fleeing from something happen, or if the police say "X is a fugitive from justice." Suspicions need to be litigated through the proper authority, IMO. Otherwise, this is the loophole validhunters and powergamers will look for to murderbone antags for holding some contraband. Play the role you've chosen, and let those with other roles play theirs.

 

There are situations where going non-lethal isn't an option - For example, Nuclear Operatives, Vox Raiders, Hungry Hungry Wiznerd, or (emerged) Shadowlings - because those antags are as likely to kill you as soon as look at you.

 

Nuke ops and emerged shadowlings are a given. Wizards are a corporate enemy under current space law and even I don't try to RP with them because I know their objectives are always hostile, though if some non-hostile objectives were put into the wizard rotation and the corporate enemy law were modified to Tully's version, I can certainly see RPing with a "good" wizard with a norobes spell. Vox Raiders... are we talking about the same Vox Raiders? They have the Inviolate. They're not Vox Raiders. They're Vox TRaiders.

 

I apologize if I have misinterpreted any of your points or have insinuated anything other than the deepest respect and eagerly await your reply.

 

And I, yours.

 

[Earthdivine]

 

I would like to say we have had a discussion regardin all of this going on for a long time now.

 

Though in this particular instance, Holoparasites are MOSTLY a full on out that you are an antagonist. I say mostly because, just like the soul stone, Mining can find it.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

I don't think that should mean an immediate "Ok guys it's like CoD we must tactically strike them with nukes and our special SMG guns".

In this particular instance, it was a player, their parasite, the CE, and the blueshield playing basketball in the holodeck. Nothing about that warranted an immediate lethal response. Fuck, I think one of the admins moved the players to a basketball court purely to get them away from it at first, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

 

[Mijhead]

 

I say mostly because, just like the soul stone, Mining can find it.

 

The guardians that mining can find look vastly different from the holoparasites that traitors can buy. The only way to get a holoparasite that looks like a holoparasite, not a spirit such as the wizard one, or a worm-thing like that of mining, is through a traitor uplink.

 

[Stephanov]

 

My blunt opinion:

 

I think it'd make antag roles much less enjoyable/interesting if you're pretty much shielded / carried instead of having to be stealthy at all times.

 

There's a reason there's a bag that you can hide stuff under a panel with, not to mention a locker room. You don't have to keep carrying your antag gear around - you choose to.

 

Not just that, but if rules like these were in place, I can just see endless ahelp debates "admun! DERE WAS NO PROOF!!!111 BS!!111"

 

The way I see it, antag roles are meant to be interesting. The odds are meant to be heavily stacked against you. It's not supposed to be a fair fight in the slightest, I love that feeling of how a slight slipup can fuck me over when trying to do my objective.

 

[Professor Cupcake]

I can't argue with the stuff about vigilantism and the enemy of the corp. changes, but I'm inclined to disagree with what you're saying about contraband. Most of these items can only be acquired from illegal sources, and if someone really did find them in maintenance and didn't call it in, they can be considered at least an accessory to whatever the antag who left it does due to their incompetence, and should be punishable as such.

[Shadeykins]

 

This thread is moot.

 

We're medium, not heavy.

 

You are allowed to know all the ins and outs of every antag.

 

You are not required to feign ignorance, nobody is.

 

Antags should thoroughly expect to be robusted by available crew whenever they are outed, especially when they always pose a direct and immediate threat to the station. Outed antagonists should reasonably expect for any nearby crewmember to table them when given the opportunity, or for other crew to run away screaming at security for help.

 

It's simple self preservation.

 

Validing isn't as bad as everyone here seems to believe, if it was people with red balloons would get immediately robusted 100% of the time.

 

The survival of an antagonist is the antagonist's responsibility, not the admin's or the crew's.

 

The only time I can reasonably see 'validy' behaviour as an issue is when people are outing an antagonist without knowing they're an antag yet.

 

Things like holy water grenades randomly being tossed around, for instance.

 

[DayZ Me Trolling]

 

I don't think that should mean an immediate "Ok guys it's like CoD we must tactically strike them with nukes and our special SMG guns".

In this particular instance, it was a player, their parasite, the CE, and the blueshield playing basketball in the holodeck. Nothing about that warranted an immediate lethal response. Fuck, I think one of the admins moved the players to a basketball court purely to get them away from it at first, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

 

We were moved to the basketball court though I'm not sure if it was to get us away from all that was going on or to simply play on a bigger court, but I assume it was something along the lines of the former. Anyway, just my two cents as the Blueshield that round coming in, I mean it was pretty late, not long from crew transfer and we needed opponents, Dexter decided to show and after a long wait he said he had a second and out hopped his support parasite, though /sadly/ it couldn't actually pick up the ball. All in all we were just trying to have some fun on a late round, and personally I don't think anything done on the b-ball court warranted for the Captain to give a kill on sight nor did a HoPcurity need to show to fire off his SMG. I think all parties involved would of been happier if it was dealt with in a better manner ICly, possible even an arrest after our game of b-ball was over.

 

[Coldflame]

 

This is a simple problem to avoid:

 

If you're an antag- Don't get caught with antag items

If you're not an antag- Don't dick around with antag items

 

[FlattestGuitar]

 

I think it should be considered that a holoparasite doesn't necessarily imply someone has malicious intentions. Same as non-slip shoes it doesn't have to be used to steal/rape/pillage/kill and could just serve the funciton of a more robust pAI. If someone says they found an injector in maint and they just turn themselves in, this should become an IC, non-shooty-shooty issue. I'm still a firm believer in that if something isn't actively trying to kill people it shouldn't be killed under any circumstances.

 

That said, the support guardian needs a nerf.

 

[alexpkeaton]

 

I understand those who say "antagging is supposed to be difficult," but how does that nullify a better Enemy of the Corp law? How does that nullify the notion that the end should not justify the means - mob mentality and vigilantism can get you arrested in real life and it should get you arrested IC too, even against antags if your actions are not deemed reasonable under the circumstances. Forget for a moment any possible admin intervention. Why can't we just add to space law that just because someone may have committed a crime does not absolve you of what you do to them. It's redundant, you might say? The laws for assault/murder are already there to punish vigilantes if we wish? Well, then what prevents someone from screaming on ahelp "BUT MUH VALIDS!" If we codified it in space law, admins can simply sit back, type "deal with it IC" and move on.

 

Play the role you've chosen, and be prepared to accept new IC consequences if you don't. I think this is a very reasonable and positive first step.

 

Antagging can remain as difficult as it used to be, but now there would be a disincentive for violence against antags. And only a small one, likely, as security would only enforce this new law against those who could have detained and instead, who killed. A sec officer might get demoted for killing someone they could have detained, or worse, if they were not deemed kill-on-sight. Why not extend this notion to everyone? Only the Captain or Magistrate can issue an order to execute or kill-on-sight.

 

tl;dr: Why not scrap the admin piece and just add to space law that actions taken while a vigilante are just as arrestable. BUT MUH VALIDS? Your argument is invalid, the end does not justify the means. Deal with it IC. Is this too much to ask?

 

[Sothangel]

 

For the record, I was the CE that shift, P.U.S.E.N.

 

The way I play is my own way - As everyone's is. I choose to not know what items are that are outside my department. I placed the holoparasite into the 'Outside of my field' category. The PC involved presented the healing parasite as his basketball-team mate. P.U.S.E.N. assumed it was something related to the holodeck at first, but this changed when he saw it outside. Even then, it hadn't attacked him or displayed any hostile tendencies, so he was neutral towards it.

 

In terms of having obviously antag items on your person? Possession does not mean ownership. Just because Robusty Assistant has an emag, very rarely, it might not actually be theirs, always that element of doubt. Don't forget that not all traitor items are evidence to syndicate connections. That's where forensics, interviews and investigation comes in.

 

In terms of the mob mentality and vigilantism - Look at the mutiny law, that has a caveat for their crime being beneficial for the station. Now obviously, cold blooded murder is quite different from mutiny, but that is something that could be explored.

 

[Habalabam]

 

It's redundant, you might say? The laws for assault/murder are already there to punish vigilantes if we wish? Well, then what prevents someone from screaming on ahelp "BUT MUH VALIDS!" If we codified it in space law, admins can simply sit back, type "deal with it IC" and move on.

 

I did not understand that. If I'm a security officer and you cripple another person for trespass, stealing your pAI or whatever. I arrest him for trespass/theft and I arrest you for assault. You a-help the butthurt. What do you think happens today without this addition to space law? What would change in this scenario?

 

[scrubmcnoob]

 

Hi. Yes. I was the man of the hour with the guardian playing some B-ball while wearing killer Jays.

I know this server is not heavy rp and completely agree people should not pretend to be ignorant about antagonist roles. But I have one small point to place forward.

 

Guardians can be obtained through three ways as we all know.

One of these ways is mining, which anyone who happens to encounter a scarab egg on the asteroid can cherish and enjoy for a round.

 

Now since we are not heavy RP and everyone can use their meaty game knowledge for anything in game, why is it people jump to the conclusion that I am a traitor to the corporation? Surely they should know that I could of easily obtained this guardian from the asteroid as it was late in the round. And as I was playing B-Ball, a harmless mini game of SS13, how could this possibly link me to a traitor? I could of very well have been a person who simply founded a scarab egg nest but everyone in command and security seemed to disregard this and jumped to the instant conclusion I was a filthy traitor.

 

Now I ask myself why is this, why would they think I am a traitor? Is it their itching paranoia crawling under their skin immediately bursting from the sight of a guardian? No of course not, in most cases, its most likely the fact that they want to have a power stroke from smashing a guy's face in and saying in their defense "Bro, it was just a prank a filthy traitor."

 

So I found a probable reason for why security opted to just go bash my face in when they got a chance, why is this wrong? Well for one, I was doing nothing illegal with my guardian, and they never bothered to search me. If they had searched me, they would of found nothing linking me to the syndicate. What could they legitimately do now to take me down in the confines of Space Law? Nothing, because there was no crime there.

Not all situations have to warrant a power stroke just because a person has a cool thing, such as a guardian. I believe some people are sorely ignorant of this.

 

At any rate, I had a fun round and I appreciate the effort Dave had put forth to make the round more enjoyable.

 

[Twinmold]

 

This discussion keeps bypassing a very important part about what brought this up to matter, and really needs to come to an end. From everything I know, this started because the Head of Personnel attacked a holoparasite guardian, was attacked by a borg, and systematically destroyed the borg in self-defense. Now, people keep using the argument that you can't tell that a 'guardian' is a traitor item, therefore is valid hunting. However, I have some bad news for you all:

 

http://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Guardian

 

Guardians can be obtained through three ways as we all know.

One of these ways is mining, which anyone who happens to encounter a scarab egg on the asteroid can cherish and enjoy for a round.

 

 

You are right to say that a guardian can be gathered from the mining asteroid, and, yes, it's a scarab... However, that's where the misconceptions start spreading, so it's time to clarify this:

 

There are three types: Spirit, Holoparasite, and Scarab.

Spirit is acquired via tarot cards for the Space Wizard Federation.

Holoparasite is acquired via the Syndicate Uplink for traitors.

Scarab is acquired via eggs usually found on asteroids.

 

Notice something? The one that was called out, and considered kill-on-sight by the Captain, was a Holoparasite (as the name and examine state). I understand it's cheap. However, as it was pointed out, people can choose to know or not know what the Syndicate has access to, as we are Medium RP. Just because you think people shouldn't know doesn't mean they can't know. And, the examination are a dead giveaway. Hiding it behind merely the word 'guardian' gives people the wrong idea about the situation, because guardian is generalized. The specific guardian information must be given, and it was specifically a Holoparasite Guardian, and therefore Syndicate Technology.

 

As for the Head of Personnel attacking the Holoparasite, as stated before: We are a Medium RP server, and knowing a single department outside of your current one is considered fine. Rule 3, especially for Security, would be actively doing security's work. Attacking what the Captain has considered a threat to the station that security, specifically the borg in question, did not, is what's in question here. The borg, with Robocop, did not believe it was evil (even though it's obviously Syndicate Technology), brings a bit more to question, though in this instant the borg choose not to attack the Holoparasite as it did not see the Holoparasite as a threat/evil. The borg, however, attacked the Head of Personnel, with disablers, after the Captain gave his order. The Head of Personnel retaliated by destroying the borg, as the borg was attempting to stop the Head of Personnel from following the Captain's orders to destroy the Holoparasite that security , which was also extremely shortstaffed, either refused to or couldn't handle.

 

Since you work for Nanotrasen, protecting Nanotrasen assets from what is considered an active threat can be considered everyone's job. Whether you choose to or not is your roleplaying choice, unless your job role specifically states it's your job. That, however, does not immune you to IC consequences. If Central Command orders everyone to attack a blob, ICly you are contractually obligated to do so, or there will be severe IC consequences for refusal. Self-preservation includes preservation of your environment for your own safety. Running away isn't always going to work and, while is acceptable RP in most cases, sometimes needs to be avoided to protect more than yourself. The Captain considered the Holoparasite, that from what I've heard was attacking and destroyed another borg (therefore Nanotrasen assets), an active threat.

 

As for vigilantism: There is a fine line. Usually if you are doing vigilantism, you're breaking rule 3, specifically if you are anything but an assistant, clown, or mime. And even then, is something that Security or Command should be able to handle ICly. However, that doesn't necessarily mean be a vigilante on round start because 'ANTAGS! MUST GET THEM!' Consider round start there are no antags ICly, therefore do your job, act your actual role until there is reason to be a vigilante. If there is plenty of security, or lack of, ask to join or work with them. Otherwise, Security may likely end up arresting you, as stated before, for assault, possession of weapons, etc. There are certain ways around these ICly to a degree, but that relies on YOU figuring out what to ask to the right people, or knowing what to say.

 

As for valid hunting: This has an extremely fine line. As stated before, going after antags just because this game includes antags does not mean you should gear up every round, on round start, to fight antags. Not even Security should be doing this. There are security measures you can do that have IC merit to them, such as removing the tracking beacon off the bridge because it's a massive security breach hazard. Don't need a random scientist teleporting onto my bridge when I'm the Captain or guarding the heads as Blueshield. Same towards certain things the AI can do as added security measures. However, in general station access, you can't just start locking things down because 'ANTAGS SOMEWHERE BREAK IN'. Half the time, it isn't even going to be an antag breaking into these areas, even though they aren't supposed to.

 

As for Code 404: This also tends to piss a lot of people off, because the punishment is for what you are, not what you did as someone has stated elsewhere. Of course, if this was out the window, and then you revealed 'I'M AN ANTAG', you can't be touched, then people watched you closely, you'd complain 'VALID HUNTERS' because they now KNOW you are an antag and are actively trying to catch you commit a crime. It just becomes a HUGE mess and we receive twice the number of valid hunt complaints. Really, if you know someone is a criminal, or even have a suspicion they will commit a felonious act, are you just going to turn your back to them? Most people I know are going to keep an eye out... So, you'd have more valid hunting anyway.

 

tl;dr Too bad, read it.

 

[alexpkeaton]

 

Twin, all due respect, but the "this really needs to come to an end" part kinda kinda burns me up a bit. That's a very impassioned defense of SigholtStarsong you made, that very deftly sidesteps HoPcurity or the whole "three implanted people want to play basketball on the holodeck with a traitor, they must be rogue, GET THEM!" part.

 

The thing is, this conversation has demonstrated my point very clearly: the playerbase is divided on this issue (and I'm not talking about that round, and honestly never wanted this to be a relitigation of it), and divided severely. That's where clearly defined rules, one way or the other, come in. You might not think it's an issue, but I argue that it very much can be tackled, even with the small step I suggested about boosting the consequences IC.

 

We have an issue that's basically considered to be "RP griefing" - if it were real griefing action would already have been taken. Yes, yes, medium RP and all, we can know everything, but what prevents us encouraging security for an IC enforcement of Rule 3 a little better? As you said, usually if you're doing vigilantism, you're breaking Rule 3.

 

Maybe I'm wrong about this. But I'm not the only one, and the playerbase really needs to be brought together with more clearly defined rules or these kind of rounds will continue happening.

 

[Shadeykins]

 

Policing is not for players, it's for admins.

 

Please, no player policing.

 

[alexpkeaton]

 

Shadeykins, your point makes no sense. Policing is also for security, for IC stuff, and I'm now suggesting a modification to space law, enforced by security, designed to proscribe more serious consequences for taking the law into one's own hands. The benefit of this will not be that traitors will have more free reign but, rather, that when non-sec characters do intervene with antagonists, they will be encouraged to detain them rather than kill them.

 

Personally, I DO want the admins to be more active stopping validhunting but it seems that is just a bridge too far for "medium RP."

 

[Twinmold]

 

The part that needs to come to an end, alex, is people hiding facts about the situation. Clarification of the rules always helps, but that doesn't change what my last post stated: Notice in scrub's post he always refers to it as 'guardian'. A 'guardian' is not a traitor item, alone in information, but there are three 'guardians', which means the lack of information is giving false assumption, which is why admins look into it because people tend not to give all the information required. It was a holoparasite guardian, which as I stated before, can only be acquired via the Syndicate Uplink for traitors ICly. This also pairs that they specifically look unique based between the three forms and their role. The fact that three implanted people played basketball with the traitor and holoparasite means nothing, especially if they don't know holoparasites are in fact Syndicate technology. That would fall under the ignorance portion of RP. As far as it was brought to my attention: The 'HoPcurity' only did anything to the holoparasite, and in turn the one linked to them, as stated by the Captain's giving order.

 

So, about those people playing in the basketball court, all implanted. I take it one was the Blueshield and one was the ONLY 'Security Officer' (not including Head of Security, Warden, and Detective, all of which aren't SUPPOSED to be making arrests, though commonly the HoS does because it's required of them)? So, that officer in question would have also been in violation of Rule 3, but you know, they aren't the ones being questioned here. The Blueshield was with the CE, so they were technically still doing their role. My understanding, from further information, is that the three who were with the traitor were actively defending him after he was already confirmed to be a traitor to the corporation. Since the only security officer was actively defending him, then what are the crew to do? This would also count towards if Security is mindslaved via Shadowlings as well.

 

Mind you, there are reasonable ways to go after vigilantism in the server already: Officers can charge, still, for any and all crimes commited without Central Command, Command, or Security authorization:

- Assault (with a Deadly Weapon) for arresting someone illegally

- Possession of a (Restricted) Weapon if it's something they shouldn't have

- (Petty) Theft for taking things from their suspects

- Manslaughter/(Attempted) Murder variant on if things go south

- (Major) Trespass for being somewhere they aren't supposed to be

 

By adding 'Vigilantism' to Space Law, you'd be doing no more than having 'Enemy of the Corporation ' in the list of Space Law, which is just another charge that would be thrown at someone, effectively always taking them out of the round if they are caught or reported, which would be something anyone just reports for being detained or not liking someone, regardless of if the detainee was actually doing Vigilantism or defending themselves.

 

The point behind 'Enemy of the Corporation' is for traitors/antags to be more stealthy and careful in how they act, in my opinion. It makes it so things that can prove they are in fact working against Nanotrasen are things they have to hide: A traitor must not allow Security to see they have a Syndicate Uplink in their PDA or things they shouldn't be able to get (like certain things from said Uplink that can't be gotten just anywhere[pistol !GATEWAY SYNDICATE! vs emag !UPLINK ONLY!]), Changlings mustn't let anyone see them absorb someone's geneomes or transform, Shadowlings mustn't thrall in front of others who can call out for help or hatch in front of non-thralls.

 

Really, there are only a few sides that 'Enemy of the Corporation' could have a major problem with. Wizards are, by definition, in cooperation with forces against the best interest of Nanotrasen. However, it can also be questioned as they may have interests within Nanotrasen assets they may be willing to work a deal for, such as protecting someone. Vox Raiders are much the same way: They can be hostile and try to kidnap people, thus harmful to Nanotrasen assets, or trade for said assets.

 

In the end, failure to actually hide you are working with contacts that have hostile intents against Nanotrasen is your own fault, much like hiding you found something that could potentially belong to someone with hostile intents towards Nanotrasen is aiding and abetting: That is, hiding Syndicate equipment, then going 'I found it' AFTER you are arrested is just asking to be valid hunted, so you can yell at others for valid hunting because you really weren't an antag. That is, you know it's something an antag would have or could be linked to them OOCly, while ICly, you have choices, such as either going 'this is weird and questionable, I should probably alert Command/Security' or 'I know this is a traitor item, but I'll just hold onto it just in case' ICly. Therefore, hiding such equipment is activity that can lead people to believe you are against Nanotrasen, therefore can and will likely be called out as a traitor. In these cases, you caused it to happen to yourself and want us to bail you out. However, if there is absolutely no evidence that states you are an antag, then this would lead us to believe it could be meta, which is why we investigate. However, if we clearly see there is evidence that they could see or could lead people to believe you are an antag and you say there's nothing, well then issues start showing up.

 

Valid hunting can be defined, in many ways that our community uses it, as using knowledge that something is connected to an antag to arrest someone and charge them for being an Enemy of the Corporation without any actual evidence that they are in fact an antag. This can spread to committed a murder without any direct evidence, though logic would lead you to believe they did commit the murder, as an example. The only 'proof' is the logic and process of elimination. No 'hard' evidence.

 

What you seem to be proposing as a rule for Valid Hunting is that if you have no proof they are actually an antag, you can't touch them, even on suspicion for proper investigation. In real life, as seems to be referenced a lot, if the police have suspicion you have ill intent, they will get a warrant for a search, detain and take you down to the precinct for questioning, etc. Sort of the point behind Code Green on Space Station 13. A higher code level, however, allows more immediate action.

 

Why have I gone over these previous points? I have to demonstrate the point behind searching for information and not leaving anything out. The situation focuses on the HoP acting like a Security Officer in only attacking the Holoparasite and/or assisting in an otherwise officer-less Security force (considering the single officer was ignoring the Captain's Orders), and the complaint against said HoP is that it isn't their role. However, they spent very little time actually being HoPcurity from what I could see. The fact they stopped an antag because Security otherwise wouldn't also means Security wasn't doing it's actual role, because they saw nothing wrong with the antag, when clearly a Holoparasite is a Syndicate-only equipment, and can only be acquired via the Uplink. Someone else just happened to call it out, after from my understanding the Holoparasite attacked and destroyed another borg. I don't know how much more clear it can be.

 

As for players killing antags: This is also covered in Space Law, under the Section of Capital offenses - 401 Murder. Illegal executions are classified as murder. Unless the Captain strictly orders all crew to kill said antag on sight, which is still under Standard Operating Procedure the last-choice option, detainment is the only choice unless they pose it impossible to detain them or are in a situation you can't detain them in some way: If there is even a slight chance to detain them, you must detain them or you can be charged with murder. Non-security characters are encouraged to call for Security or detain if they can, avoiding direct violent conflict less they have no choice. That includes beating them to the ground as the last choice in detainment. However, once they are on the ground, get them to medical to keep them alive if you can and have security take it from there. Equipment is NOT covered for this, however, as murder of equipment is logically incorrect. Thus they should be destroyed if at all possible.

 

I believe Shadeykins was pointing out policing people around, in terms of rules: It's not for players to enforce, but administrative staff to enforce. Security's job is to enforce Space Law, wherein things that are included being their jurisdiction. However, it would be for Shadeykins to clarify this.

 

Edited January 1, 2016 by Guest

[Stephanov]

 

Explanation.

 

All my this. Pretty much a more elaborate explanation of how I see it. Cheers. :]