Fox McCloud Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 Currently, in combat, brute damage is one of the best damage types to utilize against another player. This is primarily due to the fact it has so many additional side effects tied to it; it is linked with bleeding, broken bones, and internal organ damage. Contrast this to fire which doesn't cause anything other than damage--or tox, which just has a random chance to make you puke. I'd like to discuss a few things relating to balancing out brute, particularly for ranged combat. Currently ballistics have a huge advantage over non-ballistics because not only do the projectiles travel faster, but they have a lot of additional side-benefits as well. On the whole, there's only a few things that we can due to bring it more in line with other damage types, and I'd like to hear from you guys on the opinions of each/all of them: - Removing projectile embedding/shrapnel - Change bone fracturing to be probability based (like dismemberment) as opposed to guaranteed (as it currently is) - Remove the chance of brute causing damage to internal organs OR only allow it to happen if an organ's max damage cap has been reached+passed a probability check Thoughts and opinions? Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jey123456 Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 the effect of brute damage should scale with how much damage the target has taken. I have not checked how its handled in code and i dont fight enough to know off my hand, but it would make sense for bone fracturing and internal damage to only occur once you took a lot of brute damage, not on the first few hits. Maybe also reduce brute damage itself when the target is not hurt, meaning that the damage would scale up the more you hit the target. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTSAM Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 I unno, I personally believe projectiles are fine the way they are. I don't think removing projectile embedding would be very good because that's just not realistic or right at all, you would expect a sniper rifle bullet to pierce someone's unarmored chest at least a little bit. Laser weaponry is designed to be easy to utilize and carry around as you don't need to hold all that ammo and print off more when you run out and there's rarely ever a reload-y function. Hell, most of these guns can be shoved into your pack, but they won't cause bleeding and it can't get into anyone and cause more damage like bullets can. And it makes sense, in reality it's just a flash of really hot light. A bullet, however, is a sharp, metal projectile meant to penetrate the body and pack a whallop. The downsides to bullet weaponry is that you have to carry shitloads of clips around and you have to reload them (often in the midst of battle) and that it more often than not is hard to conceal. Projectiles are meant to be very robust tools and should stay that way, they should cause those nasty injuries, in my opinion. EDIT: Oh, but we should really work on making glass shards and stupid thrown shit like that not embed, you can try all you want but I doubt you're gonna stick a shard into some guy at 20 meters away without some extra force I'm kinda neutral about everything else though, although you'd expect some organ bruising if a sledgehammer hits you in the stomach full force. Idk if this is what you're gonna try to do if it doesn't do this already and i'm just retarded but Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plotron Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 I unno, I personally believe projectiles are fine the way they are. Yes. It's just kind of disproportionate that it's so much easier and simpler to treat tox and burn damage than it is to fix brute-caused problems. I'd rather not remove or dumb-down the complex systems that accompany brute trauma - it'd be funnier to work on the other damage types instead, but that's probably too big of an assignment for our codebase. Hell, most of these guns can be shoved into your pack, but they won't cause bleeding and it can't get into anyone and cause more damage like bullets can. And it makes sense, in reality it's just a flash of really hot light. A bullet, however, is a sharp, metal projectile meant to penetrate the body and pack a whallop. I really have to point something out here. Have you seen the pictures of what fire can do to human skin, human bones and nerves? I find it odd that heavy burn damage does not allow for infections. Once your skin is gone, your body is exposed to all kinds of nasty shit that will cause sepsis. http://burninjuryguide.com/burn-recover ... rn-sepsis/ It seems that the role of projectiles is to hit something vital and cause as much havoc as possible, keeping in mind that it's highly localized damage. On the other hand, all you really need to kill someone with burn damage is to burn as much skin area as possible - spread the damage to make it harder to treat and contain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn#Prognosis Toxin damage should aim for your internal organs more often. Let every damage type pose unique risks resulting in unique complications and challenges. I'm kinda neutral about everything else though, although you'd expect some organ bruising if a sledgehammer hits you in the stomach full force. Part of the problem is that we do not differentiate between blunt and sharp or penetrating traumas. For instance, you could have a stab vest that protects well against stabs (icepick test), but not so well against blunt damage. With any sufficiently powerful (or even average) melee weapon you get the best of both worlds - [internal] bleeding, cracked bones, brain injuries. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinarzad Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 I really have to point something out here. Have you seen the pictures of what fire can do to human skin, human bones and nerves? I find it odd that heavy burn damage does not allow for infections. Once your skin is gone, your body is exposed to all kinds of nasty shit that will cause sepsis The problem with this is, Infections are Satan. Which, sure it makes it more imposing, but keep in mind any time an organ gets infected, it takes so much Spacecilin to treat the infected organ, it can sometimes be factually IMPOSSIBLE to cure without a medical cyborg to infinitely synthesize and inject Spacecilin into someone for a duration sometimes going into 20-30 minutes. Infected organs make a completely shattered skeleton look like a breeze in comparison in terms of time spent in medbay. And if you have no infinite spacecilin, congrats you're fucked, go to cloning. There is not enough of the stuff in medical to cure it at times, especially more then one case and sometimes even chemistry can't make enough using the space fungus there is only so much fungus on the station period. It can take easily 50 units to cure MINOR infections, acute infections, well god have mery on your soul. And with how common Burn damage can be (Electrical burns from hacking, E-guns, fire, etc.) If those all led to massive infection outbreaks, nobody is ever going to survive them unless infections are DRASTICALLY nerfed/brought in line in terms of meds required to cure them. ON TOPIC PORTION: I think Broken bones need a threshold before there's a CHANCE to break, and maybe a high enough damage point will finally be a sure fire thing. Breaking a bone in sometimes lultastically easy, even beanbag shells break bones. AS for embedding, Iunno. I mean it makes SENSE for the most part, but it's also pretty fuckin strong as a mechanic. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Cupcake Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 I'd be much more in favour of making the other damage types uniquely dangerous to bring them in line, rather than reducing how dangerous brute is. To do the latter strikes me as homogenising them a little too much, almost as if you might as well have just one damage type. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jey123456 Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) I'd be much more in favour of making the other damage types uniquely dangerous to bring them in line, rather than reducing how dangerous brute is. To do the latter strikes me as homogenising them a little too much, almost as if you might as well have just one damage type. im inclined to agree with that and in that spirit. how about adding a chance to be slowed the higher your toxin gets for toxin damage. as for burn, if in the hands it could make you drop whatever is in your hand once every x minutes, fall on the ground if its the leg etc, trouble breathing for the chest. Unlike broken hand / legs which are very frequent event (the falling / dropping), this would be more like a temporary loss of control due to the pain from the burn or whatever. Edited January 9, 2016 by Guest Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinatacolada Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 I feel like bones break too early, bumping up the threshold at that they break would be nice. Also please nerf internal organ infections, the amount of spaceaciline required is absurd. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50757 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jey123456 Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 oh for toxin, how about simply making it increase on its own when in your body ? symbolising you becoming weaker from the poison, until critical / death if untreated. Could have the body be able to handle a small amount, but once past that treshold the toxin could simply start increasing slowly. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regen Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 There are some actual differences between the 3 damages, most notable are: Brute has the highest resistance on most armors, such as body armors, hardsuits etc. Burn damage seems to cause more pain damage than brute, if not then it should Toxin damage will not heal on its own, and you have no resistance to it, where brute and burn have armors that will take away some of the damage, toxin damage will always do the full amount unless treated Toxin damage can't be "externally" treated, you need to get pills etc to remove it, unlike brute and burn, where you can apply salve and bruise packs. This makes toxins harder to treat if you're alone with no access to medical (If you're a traitor on the run, for an example) Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plotron Posted January 9, 2016 Posted January 9, 2016 Toxin damage can't be "externally" treated, you need to get pills etc to remove it, unlike brute and burn, where you can apply salve and bruise packs. This makes toxins harder to treat if you're alone with no access to medical (If you're a traitor on the run, for an example) Tea is relatively easy to acquire. You can fix burn and tox with simple medicine, but even moderate brute trauma may require a surgical intervention. Moving bones are the worst, especially in the head and chest. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox McCloud Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 Toxin damage can't be "externally" treated, you need to get pills etc to remove it, unlike brute and burn, where you can apply salve and bruise packs. This makes toxins harder to treat if you're alone with no access to medical (If you're a traitor on the run, for an example) Tea is relatively easy to acquire. You can fix burn and tox with simple medicine, but even moderate brute trauma may require a surgical intervention. Moving bones are the worst, especially in the head and chest. This is ultimately what I"m getting at that Plotron is touching upon. Brute is, by far, the most common damage type, yet it is also the most detrimental to a person, for a number of reasons--primarily that it leads to a LOT of extra damage that very difficult to correct for: bone breaking, internal bleeding, blood loss, internal organ damage (which can lead to a bunch of other damage types), and permanent disabling of limbs. Take, for example broken hands; with a mere 30 damage dealt, someone is literally permanently taken out of a fight except for using unarmed melee attacks. This contrasts sharply with every single other damage type, which requires ~100-150 damage to incapacitate someone with. I don't personally feel massively buffing the other damage types is a good way to go about it; there's nothing fun about taking a tiny amount of damage and being permanently taken out of a fight because of it. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrubmcnoob Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 The least that can be done to nerfing brute is making the bone breaking situation the same as limb decapping. It takes you out of the fight for 20 minutes or however long till a doc can fix you up; excluding Diona cause they are robust as fuck against basic melee weapons. I hope laser Also if its not a thing already, burn damage should be dealing a ton more with the pain factor. You know when your on the beach on a hot summer day, enjoying the water and the sand, then you see a fine skimpily clothed lady? Well you, being the testosterone charged person you are, will walk over but wait! A major pain rockets through your body as your bathing suit rubs against your skin and as you move your arms; your shoulders feel as if they were singed. How could this be? How? Sunburn, a mild burn to the human body. So I imagine major burns from a fire, where your skin almost melted off would hurt a ton. And even attempting to move would make you pass out in pain, requiring the use of some one else to drag you and or a roller bed so you don't pass out into perma sleep as some one scrapes your horribly burnt back across a metal floor all the way to medbay. Just what I think about brute and burn as of right now. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamania Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 In my honest opinion, nerfing Brute wouldn't accomplish much. It would just shift the issue on to one of the other forms of damage. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrubmcnoob Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 In my honest opinion, nerfing Brute wouldn't accomplish much. It would just shift the issue on to one of the other forms of damage. I agree that brute should not really be nerfed but rather just make the bone breaking a probability just the same as dismembering. It at least make pointless bar fights a lot less of a hassle when people aren't breaking their bones left and right and needing surgery instead of just styptic powder to fix the damage. It also prolong fights and more action for everyone. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazylemon Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 The problem with this is, Infections are Satan. Which, sure it makes it more imposing, but keep in mind any time an organ gets infected, it takes so much Spacecilin to treat the infected organ, it can sometimes be factually IMPOSSIBLE to cure without a medical cyborg to infinitely synthesize and inject Spacecilin into someone for a duration sometimes going into 20-30 minutes. I could swear that I had buffed spaceacillin to 6x intensity - how recent is your experience of treating infections with it? Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinarzad Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 The problem with this is, Infections are Satan. Which, sure it makes it more imposing, but keep in mind any time an organ gets infected, it takes so much Spacecilin to treat the infected organ, it can sometimes be factually IMPOSSIBLE to cure without a medical cyborg to infinitely synthesize and inject Spacecilin into someone for a duration sometimes going into 20-30 minutes. I could swear that I had buffed spaceacillin to 6x intensity - how recent is your experience of treating infections with it? Not very recent, admittedly, after my first expierence I pretty religiously wash hands between surgeries and clean the OR rooms like a hypochondriac now. I take as much effort as I can to prevent it from even popping up and Medi-borgs don't have that worry at all. If it HAS been buffed then you can kinda disregard that point entirely. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GelatinousGlob Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 I agree bone breaking needs to be toned down, a probability might be enough. Another more difficult way would be to differentiate between stabbing and blunt damage. Being stabbed shouldn't break bones very often and blunt damage shouldn't get super infected and bleed as much. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrubmcnoob Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 That's actually a really good idea, have a distinction, if not already, to two different types of brute damage. Have two sub categories for bludgeoning a guy's head in and piercing it in. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plotron Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 Have two sub categories for bludgeoning a guy's head in and piercing it in. Some items may have both. And hell, even blunt objects may cause you to bleed (toolbox to the head, skin gets torn - try to account for that!). Fireaxe? It's sharp and heavy, it's both. It's kinda complicated, I don't think it's feasible. But yeah, breaking someone's ribs with a cracked bottle? Dafuq. Hey, how about... dislocated joints? Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox McCloud Posted January 10, 2016 Author Posted January 10, 2016 with the way Bay's wound system is (an absolute nightmare), I'll be honest, I'm really not sure how easy it would be to differentiate between the two; all I know is, wounds by fire and brute, both, sharp or not can become infected if they're not bandaged. Reason why most people get infections is they get the damaged treated, go back to doing things, then wind up with an infection because the wound was "open". In any event, maybe I should clarify what I mean by "nerfing brute". I'm not suggesting reduce brute damage *amounts* so much as the side-effects of brute damage (like breaking bones/projectile embedding/bones moving in your chest/internal organ damage via brute/etc). Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plotron Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 Relevant: https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/3181 An indirect nerf to infections + some more curious side effects. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Cupcake Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 Relevant: https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/3181An indirect nerf to infections + some more curious side effects. Please no. These pointless complexities are some of my favourite things about the game, especially when playing a medical role. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadeykins Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 Relevant: https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/3181An indirect nerf to infections + some more curious side effects. I have made another thread in regards to this just now. This is ludicrous bullshit and is why PR's need to either not happen, or get linked directly on the forums. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacemanspark Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 At the very least, jokes in PRs should be more subtle. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/6371-balancing-brute-a-discussion/#findComment-50932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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