What about being nicer?

[thebeoni]

 

Since i do not have time i dont play much SS13 lately and i also did everything game has to offer. But lately when i come across Para. I only get to see station full of competent players playing civilians and command full of newbie vulpakanins.

Also i still come to forum..and i especialy read ban appeals. And it always comes into my mind that sometimes you admins are overdoing this. You ban people for disrespecting you but in some of the posts you are more that you react rudely instead of friendly. "But Beoni you have no right to talk to us like this when you are not admin" well i tried to become one to change things but it was said that i an not worthy. Also i think admins should listen not just tell them to fuck off. SO would it kill you guys to just be nicer. Also this ban i came across lately: "threating someone in LOOC" what is he going to do? Stab him through wifi? Ok i think that was enough of my rage. Keep in mind i am writing this from my phone i will fix form when ill get on my laptop.

 

[Lalchi]

 

I've already been "beep" by admin.

 

They didn't seems rude. They ask me why i did "that", I've explain, they listen and answer me. Never had problem with an admin being rude at me.

 

[Plotron]

 

Admins here act swiftly and because of that some of their queries are unclear. If you stop and think "Well, this has gotten serious, let's cooperate" you will be treated fairly. It's a matter of attitude.

Yes, the queries could be more clear IMO and they should not contain rhetorical questions.

Clarity is very important.

"threating someone in LOOC" what is he going to do? Stab him through wifi?

Toxic environment should be subject to policy. I don't want people to harass me over a game. LOOC is used mainly for OOC questions, quick job advice (when you lack information you ought to know) or some other minor stuff that doesn't involve insults or things that could've been better said IC (and roleplayed).

Internet harassment brings real consequences. Hostile environments ruin your fun, and that's why assholes should not play on our server. If I wanted to have mud thrown at me, I'd play some LoL, DotA or other (semi-)competitive games.

 

[thebeoni]

Thats what i am talking about when someone threatens you just tell them to fuck off and you move on. Being sensitive in 2D spaceman is good way to get bullied. If i would report everyone who threatens me in OOC. There would be no end to it.

[Rumiluntti]

 

We do not allow OOC hostility, that's just stupid and anyone reverting to it should feel stupid for getting personal over space man clown farting simulator.

If someone is being very disruptive with their IC shittery in the amounts it really spoils the game for others, I ask them to stop being a shit. The main reason for this is to give the player information that they are edging the limit of shittery we allow and should maybe tone it down, if they respond with something along the lines of "FUG U I DO WAT I WANT" it indicates a problem.

 

I'm not a behavioral therapist, I'm admin. If someone can't function like a decent human being in OOC situations, they can continue functioning like a shit somewhere else.

 

I have no idea what you mean with the not allowed to talk to us when not admin -thingey, feedback is welcome, we are not strained professionals and most of us are actually not robots.

Most admins are ok with personal BYOND messaging if you need to speak to a particular admin about whatever. Admin complaints are taken seriously if there is a reason to.

 

[necaladun]

 

Compared to what comes from the player base, I'd say the admins are a good 200% nicer than what they receive.

 

No admin, to my knowledge, has ever made a death, rape, or suicide threat to a player.

 

Now, telling people to "fuck off" may not be the most professional or nicest thing an admin could say, but it is quite rare. For every time it happens, there are at least 10x as many occasions where it is deserved that it doesn't happen.

 

If this were a company which you which the players were paying customers of, then it'd never be acceptable. But in this case, the admins are human beings being payed in gratitude, not cash. Sometimes they'll reach the ends of their leashes and tell people to fuck off. Quite often, they'll be told not to do so by other admin.

 

This isn't such a company. This is a private server run for a game, in which we're trying to create a community of people we'd like to game with. And in this case, sometimes there are no better words to use then "Fuck off.".

 

When you see a ban reason of "threatening someone in LOOC", it doesn't actually matter if they could carry through with the threats or not. If someone was to say in LOOC "I will fuck you with a cactus via TCP/IP", they'd be spoken to and likely banned, regardless of the complete impossibility (I hope) of the act. It's not about protecting people from being fucked with a cactus, it's about removing people from the server that aren't welcome here.

 

If you want to play on a server where people are allowed to threaten each other in LOOC, I suggest another server.

 

Sometimes such people get the hint quickly, and apologise. Othertimes, they talk about fucking your mother and are quickly banned. Othertimes, they insist they have the right to free speech, and argue endlessly. The first two instances are easily dealt with. When it comes to the third, sometimes instead of carrying on the debate, the admin who is dealing with multiple other things in the round, is stressed and not in the mood to debate with an entilted man child, and is trying to actually enjoy SS13, may tell them to fuck off.

 

Don't get me wrong - I'd love people in this community to be nicer. I'd love if none of the staff had ever been threatened with rape. I'd love to have staff who were immune to such threats and a torrent of abuse that would make a sailor blush. But they're human, and a small % of the people who log in are sub-human. So occasionally, they'll be told in terms that are utterly clear to the most foul-mouthed teenager that they're not welcome.

 

[saywat_the_15th]

 

Being sensitive in 2D spaceman is good way to get bullied.

Wow nice bro

 

[Plotron]

 

"I will fuck you with a cactus via TCP/IP"

That's... a very good line! I'm taking it.

 

I agree with you on most (if not all) points.

 

Compared to what comes from the player base, I'd say the admins are a good 200% nicer than what they receive.

 

Yes.

When it comes to the third, sometimes instead of carrying on the debate, the admin who is dealing with multiple other things in the round, is stressed and not in the mood to debate with an entilted man child, and is trying to actually enjoy SS13, may tell them to fuck off.

 

Dude, manchildren spoil everything!

 

[Professor Cupcake]

 

Just gonna say this: There's a big difference between taking a few insults here and there, and having to deal with someone who is literally spamming one (or sometimes even multiple) of the chat types with the most toxic bile they can come up with.

 

As someone who has been in various positions of authority over some really shitty communities, I honestly think the admins here have the patience of saints. I wouldn't give some of these cretins even half the time that these guys do.

 

[TullyBBurnalot]

 

While I personally enjoy running down the arguments of some of the most baffling toxic people, purely for shits n' giggles and to see where the rabbit hole goes, my entire attitude towards this topic can be summed up in the following sentence:

 

Some people don't deserve being treated nicely.

 

As Neca said, we're not a company, and the customer is not always right. If someone logs onto the server to act like a shithead, they can very well expect nothing but a dry stonewall.

 

That said, and again as Neca said, there are occasions when we start with our regular dry dialogue, then mellow out over the conversation. This happens if the person was honestly mistaken, or simply inexperienced. But if someone's threatening to enact cactus rape over an Internet connection (nice one, by the way), all they're getting is a series of checklist questions meant to squeeze out why the hell they just did that.

 

[LightFire53]

 

I have always disliked rude people, and would totally agree that people need to be nicer to each other.

 

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

I have always disliked rude people, and would totally agree that people need to be nicer to each other.

 

NO FACK U HOSTILITIES ARE HW i LIVE PLZ COMMENT LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE BYE GUIZE.

More seriously, it would be fairly nice if people were more kind to each other. Unfortunately, this is the internet, and people, for some reason, tend to turn into blood thirty spiteful assholes.

 

[Nakhi]

 

I figure at this point there's no real reason to bang thus drum further, since it's been made somewhat clear by all parties, but here's my two uninvited cents:

 

I am split on this. I can see both sides, having been on both sides - though proper staffing has been done elsewhere, granted.

 

On one hand, I see the administrative opinion, and I agree heavily with it. If people are going to be shitheads constantly, they deserve to be treated as such. When you deal with too many over a time period, yeah, you grow weary of the bullshit. I myself have had moments where I just kind of have a "fuck it all" moment and get a bit harsh on someone that probably deserved the absolute bluntness and dickishness. Was it right? Arguable. Did it help relieve some stress? Yes. Personally I took the time to notice which ckeys were regular, and usually adjust my treatment toward that. Possible with everyone on a 50+ person round (god forbid a 100+)? No. Does it help at least knowing that some players aren't total shits just looking at the ckey? Absolutely. Ultimately I believe the admins are right in the way they handle most situations. When you deal with shit, all you see is shit. Metaphorically.

 

On the other, there's the player opinion, which seems to be the unpopular opinion in large part. I would hazard to say that this ties in, in part, with the previous statement regarding the regulars and new players. When you've played on the server for months/years, and most staff at least know of you, it can get somewhat annoying when you have one approach you with a seemingly hostile tone over possibly a small infraction, usually a spawn of a mistake not usually made. That tone can definitely set the stage for future conversation. Maybe. I saw Tully mentioned the checklist, which is good to hear. I was unaware of that, and it can definitely be useful, but also that sensing of the person's responses.

 

And the middle ground, a personal opinion here, looking at both sides from a slight distance. It goes without saying that there are players that come on just to piss off the admins, and then proceed to whine about it wherever they can to ruin a server reputation. I've dealt with those people when I moderated for Unbound Travels. But at the same time there's always admins that will have some sort of negative bias against player x. Is it right? Not always. I can say I've seen ckeys pop up and I just go "Great, it's that guy again", because you know he's going to do something wrong, or already has, and he's going to be a shit about it. Personally I would think if you see a ckey that you know as a regular, that maybe they don't need a... hostile tone. It's hard to have tone inflections over text, true, but you can sometimes tell by phrasing. At the same time, I do believe that the regular playerbase, in part (not even a large part), does have some attitude issues, and I do commend the staff for keeping a good hold on things and not banning indiscriminately.

 

------

 

Going beyond a bit here, addressing other posts, I think we can all agree that everyone, not just admins, could do with being nicer to each other if possible. So, as far as that goes as a suggestion, I think most of us can implement being nicer to each other. Or at least should, if only for a friendlier server all around. And ideally one with minimal forced cacti penetration over internet protocol.

 

[alexpkeaton]

 

command full of newbie vulpakanins.

 

Oddly specific.

 

i especialy read ban appeals. And it always comes into my mind that sometimes you admins are overdoing this. You ban people for disrespecting you but in some of the posts you are more that you react rudely instead of friendly.

 

I don't know why, but I also am an avid reader of the Declined (and, from time to time, Accepted) admin appeals. Personally, I think the admins are incredibly well-mannered about the situations they encounter, and give passes a lot more than they need to. A good chunk of the declined appeals are because when asked for the secret words from the rules, they don't respond. Also, in all of my encounters with admins, I've never been treated with hostility. Of course, I play by the rules. Typically a lack of deference to the admins can belie a lack of deference to the rules. If you're not going to respect authority in one form, it's likely you won't respect any of authority's forms.

 

"But Beoni you have no right to talk to us like this when you are not admin" well i tried to become one to change things but it was said that i an not worthy.

 

I don't think I'd like a passive-aggressive admin. So maybe it's best what was decided.

 

[thebeoni]

 

Maybe i was a bit pasive agressive in this post i can admit that. I know that admins are same people as we are i am just trying to say. That when you will be nicer even to people who are not to you they will sooner realize what theyvhave done wrong. I am not accusing admins of being generally rude. But it happens. Also one thing i dont like is (no offense) when admin tells to normal player " if you dont like something leave " guys this is same if player would go " if you dont like dealing with players give up on being admin "

 

That thing with full vulpa command actualy happend.

 

To sum it up. If you will be nice even to idiots you will create far better and competent player base. Since it will be "Admins were very nice and gave me chance so ill do my best to follow rules" instead of " I dont give a damn about rules but i am just forced by last chance"

 

As player with most stupid bans one can get. I can tell that if admin will be more than nice to you will be more likely to follow rules. Good example of that is Tully. (I am not gonna put bad examples here since i dont want to start arguing)

 

Another thing is many people are losing interest in the game. Which i think has 2 reasons.

 

1. Nothing to do anymore. Which could be fixed (eaisiest way) with porting more stuff.( or harder way) actualy dig up something good from suggestions and code it in.

 

2. Rules - as far as i am concerned this very touchy subject. What do i think is wrong -

 

A) play antag responsibly - this deacreases your chance to win and bounds your fantasy. I understand many people would go murderbone but that would just increase skill of people dealing with antags.

 

B) Excessive violence - this rulevis fine but i personally would allow escalated fights. Many tkmes happend that i had escalated fight with someone with me or him ending badly. In most cases we apolgised to each other. " NT wouldnt hire someone who can kill people just cause they want" but things like deaths from escalated bar fights happen irl too (At least in my country we use fists not guns).

 

C) Listen to admins - there is almost nothing wrong but admins are and people can be wrong (as was shown in some degrading cases). I know that its hard to admit mistake. But mistakes happen.

 

Snowflake: people on which you look and can see their timeline. That place is for appearence not for yourself overdoing RP.

 

Metagrudging: This is the worst thing any player can go through if its done by admin. I seen cases like that before and its one of the most horrible things.

 

 

Last thing to say. This thread is just my feedback i do not mean to be rude and i have nothing against admins and i consider many of them my good friends.

 

 

 

P.S. Thank you for reading this monologe.

 

[alexpkeaton]

 

Another thing is many people are losing interest in the game. Which i think has 2 reasons.

 

1. Nothing to do anymore. Which could be fixed (eaisiest way) with porting more stuff.( or harder way) actualy dig up something good from suggestions and code it in.

 

I actually think the coders are very responsive to ideas. If there's something you want in the game that would make the game more fun, suggest it. Or, better yet, if you know your way around code, put in a PR on Github. I know nothing about coding or programming languages whatsoever, but I'm looking to learn.

 

2. Rules - as far as i am concerned this very touchy subject. What do i think is wrong -

 

A) play antag responsibly - this deacreases your chance to win and bounds your fantasy. I understand many people would go murderbone but that would just increase skill of people dealing with antags.

 

B) Excessive violence - this rulevis fine but i personally would allow escalated fights. Many tkmes happend that i had escalated fight with someone with me or him ending badly. In most cases we apolgised to each other. " NT wouldnt hire someone who can kill people just cause they want" but things like deaths from escalated bar fights happen irl too (At least in my country we use fists not guns).

 

C) Listen to admins - there is almost nothing wrong but admins are and people can be wrong (as was shown in some degrading cases). I know that its hard to admit mistake. But mistakes happen.

 

Snowflake: people on which you look and can see their timeline. That place is for appearence not for yourself overdoing RP.

 

Metagrudging: This is the worst thing any player can go through if its done by admin. I seen cases like that before and its one of the most horrible things.

 

 

Last thing to say. This thread is just my feedback i do not mean to be rude and i have nothing against admins and i consider many of them my good friends.

 

 

 

P.S. Thank you for reading this monologe.

 

I get the impression English isn't your first language so I appreciate you taking the time to write a lengthy post and explain your thoughts.

 

I think your comments on the rules regarding responsible antaggery and excessive violence are all matters of having IC justification. Because people are playing this game, there is a small burden on antags to try to not end/ruin rounds without a connection to objectives. Rounds last in upwards of 2 hours on Paradise. Ensuring that people who play antags remember that they can have fun, but to try to stay on point. Your options may be more limited but that doesn't mean your creativity has to be. As long as you can provide connection to your objectives for an action as an antag, you should be fine. As for excessive violence, escalation of combat does exist, and relies heavily on IC justification. Yes, bar fights escalate into gun fights. For example:

A guy calls another's mom a name.

The other guy gives the first the finger.

First guy pushes second guy.

Second guy punches first guy.

First guy breaks a beer bottle on the bar.

Second guy pulls out a knife.

First guy drops the bottle and pulls a gun from behind his jacket.

Second guy lunges with the knife.

First guy fires the gun.

 

That is an albeit quick but conceivable escalation. What doesn't make sense is this:

A guy calls another's mom a name.

Other guy pulls out a gun and shoots the first guy.

 

As long as the escalation makes sense from the IC point of view, you are typically okay.

 

Regarding listening to admins: I get mistakes can happen. I would put forward that perhaps any stories you might know of situations where admins didn't handle things as nicely as they could are likely examples of rare mistakes rather than the norm. Nobody's perfect. But as a general rule, it just makes sense to listen to the admins.

 

Snowflaking: I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at, but I allow people their RP and anowflaky backstory if that's what they like. I'm not into playing with much of a backstory, but backstories don't typically interfere with my game. So I'll allow people their deep characters. Mine's unashamedly shallow.

 

Metagrudging: I don't think this is terribly widespread among admins. I don't know, I hope not. Though, there should be a difference between personal metagrudging and making admin decisions based on a player's notes, ban history and known attitude. Someone with extensive notes and ban history for a specific offense might deserve a perma ban for the same offense another might deserve a warning. It might be perceived as a vendetta or metagrudging, but in reality it's making informed decisions.

 

In the end, we have control over how we act, and we can lead by example. By making the server a good environment and being nice on it, IC and OOC, we can inspire others to do the same.

 

[counterfeitguise]

 

To sum it up. If you will be nice even to idiots you will create far better and competent player base. Since it will be "Admins were very nice and gave me chance so ill do my best to follow rules" instead of " I dont give a damn about rules but i am just forced by last chance"

Unfortunately the world doesn't really work like that. Sometimes people are intentionally rude to staff, no matter how nice said admins are towards them. I'm no psychologist, but the human mind's damned complex, and people are pretty sensitive to critique or scolding. Some players could make a simple mistake and then escalate the situation themselves by flinging shit because they either misinterpret the tone of someone's text, or they just don't like being told that they're wrong.

 

Other times, someone will accept that they're doing it wrong, but continue to do it because they either don't bother to learn, or they know it's wrong - and especially in the case of the latter, do you really want people like that playing? It might make it "interesting", if you're into that, but it also might make it incredibly frustrating. It's a super situational thing, and having been bwoinked myself multiple times as a starting player, I can tell you that I have a lot of good faith in the staff that volunteer their time to this little station.

 

Another thing is many people are losing interest in the game.

I actually haven't heard of anybody losing interest, but...I mean, I don't pay that much attention, I guess. As far as I'm aware the population of the server is about the same as it was when I joined a year and a bit ago, if not higher.

 

Nothing to do anymore. Which could be fixed (eaisiest way) with porting more stuff.( or harder way) actualy dig up something good from suggestions and code it in.

The one thing I actually kind of agree with is that fresh features are fun and are always a good way to spice things up - but it really isn't as easy as "go get 'em, tiger!". The coders and game admins are not paid for the things they do. They have lives, and they have needs. Any features they're trying to implement can take a long, long time, and even when they're done, people might be disappointed or just so opposed to change that it gets discarded or pushed even further back into the list of things to do. It's a matter of either waiting, or helping - and there are plenty of options for the latter!

 

A) play antag responsibly - this deacreases your chance to win and bounds your fantasy. I understand many people would go murderbone but that would just increase skill of people dealing with antags.

You do not want this rule to be changed. There are many, MANY competent antagonist players. It takes practice and a willing to learn to become one while following the rules. A lot of antag rounds are actually won by the antagonists, but the game either doesn't register it or they forgot a single goal - and winning isn't all you should be playing for. I treat the "play antag responsibly" rule the same way I treat "drink responsibly" warnings - if you don't, you ruin it for everyone (including yourself), and bad things can happen. A server full of antags who just decide to kill literally everybody they come across is not fun, nor does it increase the skill of those trying to fend for themselves - it makes it near-impossible for anyone to have a good time minus the few that got lucky enough to own a license to murderbone that round.

 

but admins are and people can be wrong (as was shown in some degrading cases). I know that its hard to admit mistake. But mistakes happen.

And that's why the Admin Complaints forum exists. There have, actually, been warnings given out to staff because of their actions.

 

Snowflake: people on which you look and can see their timeline. That place is for appearence not for yourself overdoing RP.

 

Metagrudging: This is the worst thing any player can go through if its done by admin. I seen cases like that before and its one of the most horrible things.

Metagrudging is absolutely no fun, regardless of if it's an admin doing it or a player doing it, and both can be punished depending on the severity. This sort of thing goes under Admin or Player Complaints, and are actually dealt with.

 

Snowflaking, on the other hand, is a bit more of a complex thing to explain the negatives of - most people seem to forget that 2D Spacemen is a Roleplaying game as well as an action game. Roleplaying means creating and playing as a character of your own creation, and this then goes into the laws of fictional writing which is an entirely different matter - but the gist of it is that you want to create an interesting character so people can be invested in your story. The same sort of science is applied to Roleplaying games - make an interesting character, and people will want to interact with them more.

 

A snowflakey character is one created to be brilliant at everything and to be special in a way that shouldn't be possible in the fiction. They either have no flaws, or they have way too many to the point where it's a sympathy grab. A lot of the times in stories, snowflake characters also insist that other people are drawn to them and they must be liked at all costs, no matter what. That's not an interesting character, nor an interesting fictional story to read. In the end though, Snowflaking isn't that big of a deal - it mostly just earns you a few jabs and comments in LOOC or OOC, or getting laughed at in IC.

 

Where it gets important is how you react to this sort of thing - and if you lash out because people are making fun of the character, you need to remember that you created them this way.

 

Last thing to say. This thread is just my feedback i do not mean to be rude and i have nothing against admins and i consider many of them my good friends.

Eh, I didn't sense any rudeness or hostility - feedback is welcome, I just hope you understand that feedback of feedback is a thing.

 

TL;DR - I politely agree to disagree with the changes suggested.

 

[Professor Cupcake]

 

this is the internet, and people, for some reason, tend to turn into blood thirty spiteful assholes.

Not always.

The internet is a catalyst for human interaction, both good and bad.

I've seen just as many great stories come out of it as I have the terrible ones, including a few that I was a part of.

 

[Jamania]

I'll throw in my two cents, because you know, that's what people do. Sometimes, and this might be shocking to some, but people aren't always nice, and asking them to be nice, doesn't generally work. Its not just because of the internet, but people in general. Sometimes, people are assholes, there's not really much explanation.

[thebeoni]

 

I get internet doesnt work that way. But para is not giant community. If everyone reading this post would be nice to everyone then life would be so much nicer for us and for admins. Also if you joined a year ago thats when many people stoped playing regulary. You may thought i am new but i am around for a long time. I mean that replying nicely to people makes them question why are they rude to you. (I play mobas i know what i am talking about)

 

If you think that is not how internet works you have never been to very good comunity before. Para comunity is fine. But still there are problems. Thats what i am trying to point out. I created this thread in futile attemp to make para community better. FOR XO- GREATER GOOD

 

[Rumiluntti]

 

 

B) Excessive violence - this rulevis fine but i personally would allow escalated fights. Many tkmes happend that i had escalated fight with someone with me or him ending badly. In most cases we apolgised to each other. " NT wouldnt hire someone who can kill people just cause they want" but things like deaths from escalated bar fights happen irl too (At least in my country we use fists not guns).

 

 

 

This is allow this in some specific situations. I will BWOINK them to ask the fuck are they doing and if the explanation/story is even somewhat legit and both of the nerds are ok with their drunken rivalry, I'll check a few things (antag targets etc.) and tell them to have fun.

 

Also, getting a BWOINK is not something that should raise your heartrate to 300+, I usually just ask the fuck is going on if I can't directly see it from the logs. I will not stop people for having fun as long as their fun does not ruin someone else's fun.

 

[thebeoni]

 

 

B) Excessive violence - this rulevis fine but i personally would allow escalated fights. Many tkmes happend that i had escalated fight with someone with me or him ending badly. In most cases we apolgised to each other. " NT wouldnt hire someone who can kill people just cause they want" but things like deaths from escalated bar fights happen irl too (At least in my country we use fists not guns).

 

 

 

This is allow this in some specific situations. I will BWOINK them to ask the fuck are they doing and if the explanation/story is even somewhat legit and both of the nerds are ok with their drunken rivalry, I'll check a few things (antag targets etc.) and tell them to have fun.

 

Also, getting a BWOINK is not something that should raise your heartrate to 300+, I usually just ask the fuck is going on if I can't directly see it from the logs. I will not stop people for having fun as long as their fun does not ruin someone else's fun.

Then it should be written written in rules. It would make everything much clearer.

 

[Regen]

 

Then it should be written written in rules. It would make everything much clearer.

Way off topic of this thread, and our rules can't contain every single detail.

 

Most admins are ok with personal BYOND messaging if you need to speak to a particular admin about whatever. Admin complaints are taken seriously if there is a reason to.

Until you give us a good reason for it to not be taken seriously*

 

As for this thread, I think you need to realize that a lot of what you're mentioning is completely one sided, you do not see what we see, and a "Threatened player over LOOC" could be everything from "I am going to fucking find you and murder you, you fucking faggot" to "I am going to metagrudge you so hard!!!"

You have no context except the ban reason, which serves to give the Admins and the banned player information about the ban, the player knows what they did, and if not the ban reason should be enough to explain it so they understand it, and admins can check logs / ask the banning admin about clarification if they are unsure.

They are not meant for players such as yourself to be descriptive of the event that lead to the ban, so using that as "evidence" is not viable at all

 

Other than that I think Necaladun pretty much summed the rest up, we might not be perfect, but expecting us to be in the face of some of the shitlers I have seen in my days as an admin would be extremely unfair.