Should chemistry machinery be unviewable by ghosts?

[Dinarzad]

 

I"m 100% for this, it's really easy for non-sci players to say, "muh chem circlejerk", but many of us have put many, MANY rounds into perfecting our formulas. Half of the fun of science is taking time and experimenting, anyone who wants to forgo this is just in it to irresponsibly abuse the power of the science department.

 

This is gonna come off as a hyper dick comment so I apologize in advance, but...

Good for you, do you want a medal?

I put a lot of rounds into learning construction and half the Medical department, and like Shadey referenced earlier I've known about the screwdriver to fix false walls thing for months, and had I known that wasn't common knowledge, I'd have shared it. Because there literally no reason not to.

You spent a lot of rounds mixing chemicals that are blatantly described on the wiki. Chemicals whose creation is clearly laid out for all to see, so all the "Secret" really is, is the rates you're combining said chemicals. Whether it's 20 this and 10 that or 5 this 5 this and 15 that.

 

Secondly, that's VERY insulting to assuming people wanting to look at a machine and lazily look over what a chemist/Chem Researcher is doing, are just in it to be abusive greytiding shitters. As someone who observes an awful lot of rounds, maybe it's just cuz learning is fun or getting context in a round is nice when I got antagHUD on and I know a shadey science bro is up to nefarious chemical based shenanigans.

 

There's also the fact most of us will reveal our recipes to anyone who asks nicely if we feel you will use them responsibly.

They why bother keeping ghosts from viewing a machine?

If almost all of you are willing to spill the "Dark Forbidden Lore" Of Chemistry, what is the point of making it a secret from dead fucks with nothing better to do then watch people work?

 

There is, factually, no good MECHANICAL reason to keep this information hidden. None. The reasons provided so far really just amount to "I don't want people to know, I worked hard they should have to walk uphill in the snow both ways like *I* did!" and "WHAT IF THEY METAGAME!" or "WHAT IF THEY GRIFF WITH IT?!"

And if we're gonna spend all goddamn day on 'what ifs' then what if people use singularity to grief? Or what if people abuse genetics to get greytide hulks? or what if people pick security just for guns to greytide with them?

Almost every aspect of SS13 can be used to grief if you really want to, that's no excuse for a 'secret, members only' clubhouse mindset.

 

[Shadeykins]

 

I"m 100% for this, it's really easy for non-sci players to say, "muh chem circlejerk", but many of us have put many, MANY rounds into perfecting our formulas. Half of the fun of science is taking time and experimenting, anyone who wants to forgo this is just in it to irresponsibly abuse the power of the science department. There's also the fact most of us will reveal our recipes to anyone who asks nicely if we feel you will use them responsibly. Even if I choose not to reveal the recipe I always make it a point to tell them if they at any time need help improving theirs to just ask me and I'll give them suggestions for improvement.

 

Not to sound mean, but this comes across as "I only want to share certain recipes/interesting tidbits with people I feel like, rather than the entire community so x group of people is privileged/has a concrete advantage."

 

You learned how chemistry works from the wiki (or learned from someone else, who showed you), in turn you should put back in to that very same system instead of hoarding "top sekret" chem mixes.

 

Otherwise, if we're going to allow this sort of behaviour we should just remove the wiki altogether so the sanctity of everyone's hard work is not sullied.

 

If someone's locked the time constraints for a job, they've been around long enough that they should act appropriately when performing that job, there's really no baldy/deathchem argument here (most deathchemmers/sekret chem users aren't baldies anyhow, they're players who've been here forever).

 

[BiberDark]

 

Really what is so secret to mix Cryoxadone with Manitol and Mutadone to make it super secret , you could add Mitocholide.

So your Cryos heal Mutation, Braindamage, Inner organe Damage as well as brute and oxy. Wow super stealthy......

 

PS would be nice to have a storage in the chem room to store some basic ingredients.

 

[davidchan]

 

Jesus christ the people supporting this suggestion are just reeking of elitism and snobbery. Everything is on the wiki, if you're making meds who gives a damn, if you're making hellmixes as a non-antag... first off WHY?! If it gives them ideas so what, everyone plays the same game and what comes around goes around.

 

'BUT TEH GRIFFERS' Is echo'd through this thread a number of times. You honestly think someone intent on greifing is going to take 2+ hours out of their time to watch someone work chem in hopes of learning how to bomb that very same server next round? Griefers are impatient and want to cause as much trouble with the least amount effort, the fact that we almost never see hellmixing griefing outside of the escape shuttle FFAs is just proof of that, we know exactly how strong and server breaking these mixes are but none of the griefers are willing to spend the 45-60 minutes or more to make them even if just one grenade could wipe medbay from the map and literally crash the server as it overloads.

 

If someone wants to observe me making medicine, poisons or any other fuckery I'm doing at a chem dispenser to kill time, let em. I've happily given out fully upgraded dispensers to the Bar, Botany and even Janitors before and have never seen them used to do anything worse than make a neurotoxin (the drink, not the actual toxin) or space lube grenade.

 

This is an open source server where new players should be encouraged to learn any aspect of the game they show interest. Stop attempting to hoard knowledge so you can stroke your own ego with how good your personal hellmix is compared to new guy who barely managed to make a H2O+K grenade

 

[Da Dman234]

 

Half of the fun of science is taking time and experimenting, anyone who wants to forgo this is just in it to irresponsibly abuse the power of the science department.

 

If someone knows this stuff and is willing to share it with me so I can avoid round after tedious round of tweaking and refining that I personally do not feel is either fun or a good use of my in-game time then I'm absolutely going to ask for help. That doesn't mean I'm going to run around griefing people with these fancy new formulas that someone showed me, but it does mean that when I finally turn on all the secret antags in my game preferences I might actually stand a chance and make it interesting for the other players trying to hunt me down.

 

Hell, if I'm being completely honest about this whole topic it's that I mostly want to know about some of these cool tricks so I have a better chance at becoming a Mentor someday down the line.

 

Right, and that's perfectly fine. All I want is for a person to ask instead of wordlessly poaching a chem recipe I just spent 4 rounds perfecting. It's incredibly frustrating to think that not only did someone not work for something, but also is able to take something that you spent time working for and use it without so much as a thank you.

 

Not to sound mean, but this comes across as "I only want to share certain recipes/interesting tidbits with people I feel like, rather than the entire community so x group of people is privileged/has a concrete advantage."

 

You learned how chemistry works from the wiki (or learned from someone else, who showed you), in turn you should put back in to that very same system instead of hoarding "top sekret" chem mixes.

 

Otherwise, if we're going to allow this sort of behaviour we should just remove the wiki altogether so the sanctity of everyone's hard work is not sullied.

 

If someone's locked the time constraints for a job, they've been around long enough that they should act appropriately when performing that job, there's really no baldy/deathchem argument here (most deathchemmers/sekret chem users aren't baldies anyhow, they're players who've been here forever).

 

You don't come across as mean, as that's a valid point to this argument. First off, I would never hoard chem recipes to give myself or any other friends an advantage. That's such an unimaginably shit thing to do I don't even know how to respond.

 

So, regarding the point I was making in my earlier post let me give an example of what I fear. Let's say an irresponsible player comes and takes a gander at my fancy gibsmoke recipe, not knowing any better next time they're say, a traitor. Irresponsible player decides, "Hey, bigger is better right?", and goes to grab two bluespace beakers. You now have a massive bomb that not only takes a large amount of players out of the round, but leaves the player in trouble and the admins a huge mess to clean up. Now I completely understand almost no players are like this, but if it's not a problem then why not put them all up on the wiki? One other thing, I don't think I've ever met you ICly, but I promise you I go our of my way to give back to the community and teach players anything they ask about regarding science.

 

This is gonna come off as a hyper dick comment so I apologize in advance, but...

Good for you, do you want a medal?

I put a lot of rounds into learning construction and half the Medical department, and like Shadey referenced earlier I've known about the screwdriver to fix false walls thing for months, and had I known that wasn't common knowledge, I'd have shared it. Because there literally no reason not to.

You spent a lot of rounds mixing chemicals that are blatantly described on the wiki. Chemicals whose creation is clearly laid out for all to see, so all the "Secret" really is, is the rates you're combining said chemicals. Whether it's 20 this and 10 that or 5 this 5 this and 15 that.

 

Right, first off comparing screwdrivering a false wall and chem recipes that can gib the entirety of escape are two different things, and I do try to share my knowledge, but if there's no reason not to share how to make a gib grenade then why don't I see how to make it on the wiki?

 

Secondly, that's VERY insulting to assuming people wanting to look at a machine and lazily look over what a chemist/Chem Researcher is doing, are just in it to be abusive greytiding shitters. As someone who observes an awful lot of rounds, maybe it's just cuz learning is fun or getting context in a round is nice when I got antagHUD on and I know a shadey science bro is up to nefarious chemical based shenanigans.

 

It's equally insulting to assume were trying to hoard chem recipes for our own benefit.

 

There's also the fact most of us will reveal our recipes to anyone who asks nicely if we feel you will use them responsibly.

They why bother keeping ghosts from viewing a machine?

If almost all of you are willing to spill the "Dark Forbidden Lore" Of Chemistry, what is the point of making it a secret from dead fucks with nothing better to do then watch people work?

 

There's a large difference between asking and thanking someone than from wordlessly poaching their work while dead without so much as a single word. I guess it is selfish to ask for a simple "thanks", but I still want one regardless

 

There is, factually, no good MECHANICAL reason to keep this information hidden. None. The reasons provided so far really just amount to "I don't want people to know, I worked hard they should have to walk uphill in the snow both ways like *I* did!" and "WHAT IF THEY METAGAME!" or "WHAT IF THEY GRIFF WITH IT?!"

And if we're gonna spend all goddamn day on 'what ifs' then what if people use singularity to grief? Or what if people abuse genetics to get greytide hulks? or what if people pick security just for guns to greytide with them?

Almost every aspect of SS13 can be used to grief if you really want to, that's no excuse for a 'secret, members only' clubhouse mindset.

 

Right, if there's no good mechanical reason then why don't I just upload my entire notepad full of dangerous chem recipes to the wiki? How long do you think it would take before it's abused? You're entirely right that every aspect of SS13 can be used to grief, but some do MUCH more damage than others.

 

[Shadeykins]

 

Right, if there's no good mechanical reason then why don't I just upload my entire notepad full of dangerous chem recipes to the wiki? How long do you think it would take before it's abused? You're entirely right that every aspect of SS13 can be used to grief, but some do MUCH more damage than others.

 

Make a guide to sci chem that has these recipes.

 

I actively encourage it, actually.

 

[TullyBBurnalot]

I would again like to point out that none of your "dangerous recipes" are, in any way, secret. All the chemicals have instructions on how to make them. It's literally a game of proportions, which isn't nearly enough to justify effectively drawing blinds on something.

[Da Dman234]

 

I would again like to point out that none of your "dangerous recipes" are, in any way, secret. All the chemicals have instructions on how to make them. It's literally a game of proportions, which isn't nearly enough to justify effectively drawing blinds on something.

 

I was more referring to gibsmoke grenades, but if it has the blessing of the badmins I'd actually be ok with making a guide regarding recipes like it.

 

Right, if there's no good mechanical reason then why don't I just upload my entire notepad full of dangerous chem recipes to the wiki? How long do you think it would take before it's abused? You're entirely right that every aspect of SS13 can be used to grief, but some do MUCH more damage than others.

 

Make a guide to sci chem that has these recipes.

 

I actively encourage it, actually.

 

I'd much rather do that than have people watch me as a ghost. I actually think I will, but it may take a while as a few of my recipes are outdated though.I also see you're a wiki contributor. I have no right to ask you to do this but as a favor could you add Teslium to the Chem wiki? I'm currently on mobile/am unsure how to make it look pretty on the Chem wiki page

 

[Shadeykins]

 

I would again like to point out that none of your "dangerous recipes" are, in any way, secret. All the chemicals have instructions on how to make them. It's literally a game of proportions, which isn't nearly enough to justify effectively drawing blinds on something.

 

I was more referring to gibsmoke grenades, but if it has the blessing of the badmins I'd actually be ok with making a guide regarding recipes like it.

 

Right, if there's no good mechanical reason then why don't I just upload my entire notepad full of dangerous chem recipes to the wiki? How long do you think it would take before it's abused? You're entirely right that every aspect of SS13 can be used to grief, but some do MUCH more damage than others.

 

Make a guide to sci chem that has these recipes.

 

I actively encourage it, actually.

 

I'd much rather do that than have people watch me as a ghost. I actually think I will, but it may take a while as a few of my recipes are outdated though.I also see you're a wiki contributor. I have no right to ask you to do this but as a favor could you add Teslium to the Chem wiki? I'm currently on mobile/am unsure how to make it look pretty on the Chem wiki page

 

I don't even know what Teslium is, probably because it's not on the wiki and nobody shares anything secret.

 

[Dinarzad]

 

There's a large difference between asking and thanking someone than from wordlessly poaching their work while dead without so much as a single word. I guess it is selfish to ask for a simple "thanks", but I still want one regardless

 

If this is all it amounts to, then have you honestly gone out and thanked anyone who has provided the lists or guides that are up on the Wiki? The people who provided that gigantor list of chemicals, how to make them and their effects or really any guide in any department?

 

Because personally, I'm not seeing any real difference between "People/Ghosts watching me work in-game and seeing me make my mixtures and not giving me a word of thanks" and "My mixtures are on the wiki for people/ghosts to read and not give a word of thanks."

 

[Da Dman234]

 

Right, if there's no good mechanical reason then why don't I just upload my entire notepad full of dangerous chem recipes to the wiki? How long do you think it would take before it's abused? You're entirely right that every aspect of SS13 can be used to grief, but some do MUCH more damage than others.

 

Make a guide to sci chem that has these recipes.

 

I actively encourage it, actually.

 

I'd much rather do that than have people watch me as a ghost. I actually think I will, but it may take a while as a few of my recipes are outdated though.I also see you're a wiki contributor. I have no right to ask you to do this but as a favor could you add Teslium to the Chem wiki? I'm currently on mobile/am unsure how to make it look pretty on the Chem wiki page

 

I don't even know what Teslium is, probably because it's not on the wiki and nobody shares anything secret.

 

Right, I'm on mobile so don't crucify me if I'm wrong as I'm doing this from memory. Teslium is created by mixing Black Powder, Plasma, and Silver at 400k. When ingested it intermittently shocks someone to the ground doing burn damage the entire time it's in your system. When mixed with Uranium it creates a weak lightning bolt effect

 

[Xyntasia]

Does anyone else go to github to view the recipes and whatnot? Not only is there a wiki, but github has all the recipes, effects, and descriptions for chems.

[Plotron]

The sorts of people who randomly mix chemicals don't seem like the sort that would even observe a chemist as a ghost. If someone isn't willing to use the wiki to learn then why would they even view anything as a ghost? The people that randomly mix things are probably going to do so regardless.