Armor Piercing and EMP Ammo

[Plotron]

 

1. Armor Piercing Ammunition and Weaponry

The ammo we use currently only deals a flat amount of damage that is reduced by armor you wear, meaning that in order to defeat the heaviest of armors you need the heaviest of weapons that will very easily dispatch unarmored targets.

 

But what if we had piercing armor that would simply ignore some of the armor? For instance you have armor with value 30 of bullet damage reduction (which translates to 30% AFAIK). If we were to shoot it with hypothetical AP ammunition with AP value of 10, it would take 10 off the 30 armor and ultimately the incoming damage would be reduced by 20%, not 30%.

If you had no armor, it'd be 0 - 10, and since we don't want negative armor values it'd equal 0; the AP aspect of the bullet would do nothing. Unless you wanted to model overpenetration, that is.

Simple formula: dmg = dmg*(100-(Armor-AP)) * 0.01

 

What would be the tradeoff? Simple, AP ammo could be less effective against unarmored targets as it'd deal less flat damage and the AP aspect would not apply.

 

Another good thing is that you could have robust armor-piercing weapons that'd dispatch 60+ armor guys just as if they were unarmored, whilst keeping damage to unarmored or lightly armored people in check - imagine a transphasic bullet with 80-100 AP value that would kill everyone equally as well.

It could deal low damage, for instance 10 or 15, but still be more robust against heavy targets than a 20 dmg gun.

 

Let's say that someone has 70% armor. The 10 dmg 80 AP transphasic bullet would deal 10 dmg.

A standard 20 dmg bullet would only deal 6 dmg at this point. These two shots would both deal 10 dmg if the target had just 50% armor. This means that there are moments when you'd prefer AP over non-AP, and vice versa.

 

Same could be applied to melee weapons, too! Some weapons could have natural AP properties, for instance high-caliber guns.

 

2. EMP (anti-electronics) Ammunition

What if we had EMP ammunition that would deal bonus damage to mechanical/synthetic/robotic parts? Not the same as an ion bolt, for sure, but it'd be something less specialized and more universal. Let's say that a normal bullet deals 15 damage. If you had a synthetic target (IPC, AI, Borg, Mech), you could get yourself EMP ammo that deals 10 normal (brute) damage and bonus 10 EMP (burn) damage to electronics. In this case the EMP ammo would be slightly more effective against the target you want to kill, meaning that you can have ammo tailored to your needs.

 

The gun would still work against organics, it'd just be less effective against them in case your plan went wrong. It's a good compromise.

 

[Professor Cupcake]

 

I have a slightly different spin on AP rounds.

 

Instead of a flat offset, make it a multiplier. So, your standard AP round might have an armour multiplier of, say, 0.5 - making any armour the target is wearing half as effective. This also has the added dynamic of increasing the effect with heavier armour, and avoids having to worry about values going below zero.

You could also flip this the other way, with HP-style rounds. Increased flat damage, but they apply a multiplier that increases the target's armour, making them pretty much useless against armoured targets.

 

[Plotron]

 

This also has the added dynamic of increasing the effect with heavier armour, and avoids having to worry about values going below zero.

I'm just worried about scaling. But yes, I think that's the way it's most commonly implemented. We could have different tiers of AP ammo. I just like the idea of completely nullifying someone's armor - that won't be really possible with the multipler method.

 

You could also flip this the other way, with HP-style rounds. Increased flat damage, but they apply a multiplier that increases the target's armour, making them pretty much useless against armoured targets.

Brilliant.

 

[Professor Cupcake]

 

O' course, we could have both. Apply the multiplier first, then the offset. I went with a system like that once, and while it was a little annoying dealing with two different penetration values, it was worth for the ability to get the behaviour just right.

 

This also allows for... weird behaviour. Like a round that reduces armour to almost nothing, but then adds a whole bunch, and vice-versa. Not sure when you'd want that, but what the hey.

 

[pinatacolada]

 

Yes.

 

AP should maybe have a lower chance to stick inside the victim too.

 

Also this comes to mind http://www.businessinsider.com/ak-47-wound-over-an-m4-2015-12

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

In this case the EMP ammo would be slightly more effective against the target you want to kill, meaning that you can have ammo tailored to your needs.

 

 

If it causes an EMP within the area (even if it is one tile), it's a bit more than just slightly more effective, and guns already hurt a ton, same with ion rifles,EMP grenades, etc. AP rounds sound solid though.

 

[Plotron]

 

If it causes an EMP within the area (even if it is one tile)

It only deals additional burn damage if it hits a robotic part. It's localized.

 

AP should maybe have a lower chance to stick inside the victim too.

 

Not sure if it'd be good to have such a complex system.

The ammunition would be balanced by damage primarily.

 

[Regen]

 

There is a thing called overpenetration, which could be relevant.

The question is how hard it'd be to code, with the current guncode etc.

 

[Plotron]

 

There is a thing called overpenetration, which could be relevant.

 

Could be lame if it involved RNG.

It could be scaled according to how far you went into negative numbers. By taking the absolute value, we could come up with some kind of another variable.

 

Balancing ammo by plain damage is going to be hard enough IMO.

 

[Habalabam]

Same caliber HP should be superior to AP when shooting an unarmed target, correct?

[Plotron]

 

Same caliber HP should be superior to AP when shooting an unarmed target, correct?

Correct. Except that it's not unarmed you're thinking of, it's unarmored.

 

[FlattestGuitar]

Wait, don't we already have AP ammo for the Saber that you can print in the protolathe?

[NTSAM]

dude as long as the EMP shots aren't a simple overused "fuck you you're dead" to IPCs that sounds rad

[Habalabam]

 

Same caliber HP should be superior to AP when shooting an unarmed target, correct?

Correct. Except that it's not unarmed you're thinking of, it's unarmored.

Yes, indeed. Thanks.

 

[Plotron]

 

dude as long as the EMP shots aren't a simple overused "fuck you you're dead" to IPCs that sounds rad

It's just some additional burn damage that is applied to the body part that got hit at the expense of reduced overall brute damage output.

When you add up the damage, it should be about 5 dmg higher than if you were to get hit with a normal bullet. Situation-specific.

 

Wait, don't we already have AP ammo for the Saber that you can print in the protolathe?

I wish I knew what that does.

 

[HereticChurch]

I... We already have an armor penetration system in game, with AP ammo that can be made for the SABR SMGs in science, as well as the Security Autorifles. It works the same way you described in the OP, where it does a listed value in penetration that nullifies said amount of armor. 20 AP = 20 less armor. They've also got Incendiary ammo and Toxic ammo. EMP bullets may be neat though.

[saywat_the_15th]

Aye, the SABR AP ammo is great against nukies btw.

[Plotron]

 

They've also got Incendiary ammo and Toxic ammo. EMP bullets may be neat though.

Now we only need that and HP ammo. Also more ammunition choices for other guns.

 

[Earthdivine]

 

As far as I am aware EMP ammo wont work because even Ion rifles/Carbines use an Ionbolt, which causes an EMP effect in the area, so it will not be specific to one target.

 

Also guncode is utter crap and needs to be updated if we were to do something like this.

 

[Plotron]

 

As far as I am aware EMP ammo wont work because even Ion rifles/Carbines use an Ionbolt, which causes an EMP effect in the area, so it will not be specific to one target.

 

Don't tell me our current code doesn't allow for ammunition that deals two types of damage simultaneously.

 

[FlattestGuitar]

We already have incindiary rounds, they do literally just what you proposed - two types of damage.

[Earthdivine]

 

As far as I am aware EMP ammo wont work because even Ion rifles/Carbines use an Ionbolt, which causes an EMP effect in the area, so it will not be specific to one target.

 

Don't tell me our current code doesn't allow for ammunition that deals two types of damage simultaneously.

Considering how old alot of our stuff is, probably. Fox or DZD can explain better then I can, though.

 

[DZD]

It's impossible to say, do burn and brute damage in one bullet directly, but it's possible to make bullets do special things upon hitting a mob, such as creating an EMP or giving the mob firestacks (this is how ion bolts and dragon's breath rounds work). As far as armor piercing ammo, it already exists; you can print out AP ammo for SMGs and the sec rifle that you can order through cargo (its name escapes me at the moment).

[Regen]

 

It's impossible to say, do burn and brute damage in one bullet directly, but it's possible to make bullets do special things upon hitting a mob, such as creating an EMP or giving the mob firestacks (this is how ion bolts and dragon's breath rounds work). As far as armor piercing ammo, it already exists; you can print out AP ammo for SMGs and the sec rifle that you can order through cargo (its name escapes me at the moment).

 

They're called like AP[calibername] or something.

 

[DayZ Me Trolling]

 

It's impossible to say, do burn and brute damage in one bullet directly, but it's possible to make bullets do special things upon hitting a mob, such as creating an EMP or giving the mob firestacks (this is how ion bolts and dragon's breath rounds work). As far as armor piercing ammo, it already exists; you can print out AP ammo for SMGs and the sec rifle that you can order through cargo (its name escapes me at the moment).

 

I believe the gun you are talking about is the WT-550.

 

 

Anyway, so as a frequent Sabre SMG user, (As in, I opt for the SMG whenever a situation that requires lethals arises and R&D has it available) I'd like to throw in my two cents. As stated above, yes we already have AP ammo, which does a pretty good job, however AFAIK the AP ammo we have now also works on other armored things, like a mech or the turrets in the AI core/upload (Since I believe regular rounds just bounce off turrets.) Now, EMP ammo would be a neat gimmick though a little powerful, imagine three bursts of three emp rounds flying in your general direction, chances are you're not going to dodge all of them, so for IPC's that's a nightmare, I propose instead we either add another type of round or buff Toxin rounds, as apart from giving some Toxin damage, they don't really have another effect apart from possibly making you puke once in a while.