Make genetics have only the CMO's authority

[Kyet]

 

@tzo

 

Borging someone when cloning/transplating is an option is akin to murder, and you deserve to be charged with murder every time you do this.

 

 

I don't do it. Nor did I say it is the best option. My point was simply that it isn't the only option.

You say yourself "when cloning/transplanting is an option", implying that it isn't the only option.

 

Talk of borging is a distraction, though. Heck, even talk of humanized monkeys in general is a distraction.

It does not matter in the "should genetics be reclassified as a non-joint subdepartment of science" question.

 

R&D, robo, etc already provide services to the station at large. I see absolutely no reason why genetics shouldn't be a sub-department of science that provides services (such as humanized monkeys) just as R&D, robo, etc do.

 

IMHO, the fact that people are seizing on humanized monkeys as "the" important thing genetics can do, suggests there really is no good reason why genetics is a joint department with medbay. That's a very weak reason to be the go-to defense of the status quo.

 

On the contrary "genetics spends >95% of its time doing genetic research, thus they belong in the research department, just like the people doing R&D, chem research, xenobio research, etc" is a much stronger argument, because it is based on what they spend most of their time doing. Every job has one or two things they spend the majority of their time on, and a huge list of things they do sometimes. Jobs should be classified based on what they spend the majority of their time on - not what they might do sometimes. No matter how important the "sometimes" stuff is. A botanist can sometimes save the station from a blob single-handedly. Important? Sure. Lifesaving? Sure. But less-common stuff like that doesn't define their job.

 

Genetics has a direct impact on medical.

 

It has no impact on science.

 

Again, that's a terrible reason for it to be part of medical.

Xenobio, scichem, etc usually have zero impact on the rest of science, but often impact on medical (people die in accidents). Yet, they're properly classified as part of science, because their job is research. Genetics should be exactly the same.

 

On the flipside, station having air, power, etc make a huge impact on medical - but nobody thinks medical should get control of the engine, atmos, etc.

To take an example of another department: everyone depends on security to be able to do their jobs safely, but nobody thinks that security should be part of every other department.

 

Robotics, R&D, etc field far more than 6 requests a shift, while remaining firmly part of science. I see no reason why genetics should not be the same way. Actually, the burden on genetics would be less in this setup than R&D/robo already have, because genetics' desk would open just to medbay, thus they would take only requests from people in medbay, whereas anyone at all can walk up to the publicly-accessible R&D or robo desks.

 

[Knightedskull]

 

*cracks knuckles and neck*

*Puts on some red shoes*

In honor of David Bowie, Let's Dance :

 

The argument for Science only: They primarily just do research on genes, and cloning is easy enough that the MD's generally just do it themselves.

 

Better arguments:

 

• Over 95% of their time is spent doing genetic research. They do little if any cloning in a typical round. Giving a clean SE is a 5-second operation that takes less time than a R&D scientist printing someone a console screen from the autolathe. Genetics is a "medical" department in name only. The idea that they're equally split between science and medical is a sham.

• Doctors are often bored. I've seen entire rounds with almost nobody entering medical. Frankly, doctors could use more to do in most rounds.

The whole multiple bosses idea just doesn't work in practice. The CMO/RD disagree at times. It would be better if one person (RD) was in charge, and there was clear accountability.

 

 

 

1. That's only if the CMO tells them to fill up the cloner and to do the process. So that is fault on their part. If geneticist refuses to work cloner? Demoted.

2. Doctors are bored AFTER prepping up because antags and accidents might take a while. The exceptions are Chemists, Virologists, and Geneticists.

EVERYONE in the station already have multiple bosses. it is called the Chain of Command. And the thing that which keeps other departments from arguing with each other is something called Standard Operating Procedures. Current arguments arrive because usually someone forgets or doesn't understand it ( understandable because of its current state)

 

The argument for Medical only: They're currently the easiest source of monkey cubes for us chemists, and in addition their powers are based off the human body anyways, which may sort of relate to medical somehow? Maybe? In addition, they ARE supposed to provide Clean S.E.'s, and the few geneticists that are good DO hand them out.

 

MedChemists should just get a blood pack in their lab by default. It is a basic reagent they need for core healing chems. Failing that, at least give them one of the smaller monkey cubes that can be expanded into a single monkey.

 

Mutadone is superior to clean SEs in treating genetic issues. It is fast and easy to make, pills of it are stackable and can be put in pill boxes, you can produce 12+ pills of it at once, rather than clean SEs one at a time on a delay. Even if for some reason, people still want SEs from genetics, the best way to solve that is to have a window in the wall. Not keeping genetics as part of medical in any way.

 

 

1. Ping...come on man, you know it has far more applications than your blood monkey.

2. A blood pack wont get you far and from the start we already have, I believe, 3 packs of each blood type.

Mutadone would be lovely if not bugged, sometimes. Other people have mentioned it and even seen it myself not fix a genetic issue and have believed for a while that it fixed only changed genetic issues rather than spawned ones. Also, a CLEAN SE is faster and works 100%. Most genetic issues are a single case issue so a huge batch a mutadone wont see much use.

 

 

The argument for keeping both: The RD should be holding onto the research aspect, but the geneticists are needed when medbay goes to shit and a ton of people need cloning (Blob and similar disaster rounds come to mind). If MD's have to focus on other things, geneticists become a huge help. I can personally attest that the genetics guys make medbays job a lot easier when they're around. Of course, SoP has to be cleared up.

 

 

I fail to see why medbay should be treated differently than every other department.

If there's a security emergency, sec can, should and sometimes even *gasp* does ask for volunteers to fill out the ranks so they can deal with it.

If nobody is starting the engine, command asks for volunteers with eng skills to get it done.

If lots of people need medical treatment, why does nobody ask for volunteer triage docs at medbay?

 

"Oh gosh it would could helpful in a major emergency" is not necessarily a good reason for medical to operate that way *all the time*.

 

 

•  

  In emergency situations, on the levels of a blob , 80% of the crew will try and stop it before it consumes everyone . There would not be a damn doctor that wont have their hands full fixing people so, yeah, we'll need someone like the geneticist to go through the whole clone process and maintenance of biomass.

   

  Every department is unique but there is a reason medical is treated "differently".

  •  

    IC : We heal your injuries and fix what ails you. Just by being in our job, we tell others that we know what is best for you.

    OOC: We keep you in the game, in the most extremely hostile environment surrounded by people that want to kill you or view you expendable.

 

In all seriousness, not everyone is cut out for medical. There is a reason that in RL people have to study for this stuff and it's the same in this game as a doctor. A lot of things are situational and will need experience to know what to do for that situation and their multiple ways of handling it.

 

•  

  You have to know what each medicine does and when to use them.

  You have to know how to use the medical equipment and machines and when to use them for the situation.

  You have to understand the injury system, the types of damages and their implications, especially Respiratory.

  You have to understand what NOT to do, such as pulling people with fractured ribs or skulls.

 

Excludes the knowledge of surgery, virology, and genetics.

That's just for a general BASIC doctoring, and half of it is can apply to a paramedic ( to help keep alive, not actually treat) which is at most what any willing emergency volunteer will be unless they know this stuff.

Peoples lives, and their time, are dependent on this.

This is not to undermine the importance of the other departments, but medical has the most direct influence.

 

 

 

Having genetics be confined to medical is a terrible idea - the claim they're a "joint department" with science is already a blatent lie given that they spent >95% of their time doing science stuff unrelated to medical. No, genetic research is NOT related to medical, any more then R&D research, chem research, xenobio research, or any other kind of research.

 

No-Breath is extremely useful for those that can't breath normal air or not at all with their lungs turned to mush.

Research exists for Chemistry, R&D, Xeno, Tele, Virology ( yes, 90% of the time is just doing research) for IC reasons the sake of the station's story and whatnot.

And speaking of VIrology, when a virus is NOT loose, Genetics does FAR more for medical, even when both 100% their research. This is almost like you hadn't read the many things posted about the medical applications Genetics currently hold, not strictly just for cloning.

 

I would definitely support the window, however. The wall makes it unnecessarily difficult for medical staff to ask them for things when needed. Every other service-offering sub-department of science has an outward-facing desk (robo, R&D) and I don't see why genetics should be any different.

 

There is indeed no good reason why genetics straddles two departments, and it does indeed create a lack of accountability. However, taking an existing lie (that genetics is a 50/50 medical/science department, which it blatently isn't) and doubling it (by making genetics medical-only) doesn't fix anything, it just results in a bigger lie.

 

Yes, putting reinforced windows would make it tons nice for genetics for them to what is going on, besides, you know, the fricken radio comms. That thing that I at least use to inform the geneticist what is needed and whatnot?

 

What the hell do you mean lack of accountability? If the geneticist doesn't do their job, they aren't doing their job. If anyone abuses their position for powers, that's on them ( more so on geneticist without CMO authorization). As spread out SoP is, common sense can substitute it.

 

Incidentally, I would think that every CMO out there would WANT the RD to have basic medbay access, since medbay benefits so hugely from the upgrades that typically the RD provides.

 

As much I would like them be able to come through the front doors on their own, it would be too damn scary for ALL OF SCIENCE to have direct access into the main portion of medbay. Though, that is a plus for geneticist, shortcut way to allow them inside and help upgrade the machines or hell just give it to them and let them do it since they are the ones with access to both departments. As an RD, you can just shove the equipment to the geneticist and tell them to upgrade our medical stuff. They'd probably like to try something like that.

 

I'd be in favor of giving the RD basic medical access and the paramedic access through the science front door and through genetics.

Genetics having some responsibility to medical does not, in any way, constitute a good reason for having them be a sub-department of medical. R&D is expected to make items for every department. They're not a joint department with everything else. Robotics is expected to make cleanerbots, secbots, medibots, and all kinds of mechs, yet they're not a joint department either. Cargo is responsible to every other department that exists, because all the stuff they do is in service to another department - yet NOBODY has ever argued that cargo should be shared with any other department.

There is absolutely no reason that genetics couldn't be a science-only job which has a window+desk facing into the room where the cloner is currently. That way people can still ask them for stuff if they want, but this whole split-department nonsense goes away.

 

You can say that genetics has absolutely no reason to be in science for PRACTICALITY reasons because their use and help in medical far outstretches the IC reasons of FOR SCIENCE

Genetics doesn't effect Science, but it helps Medbay a ton

 

Toxins doesn't effect the rest of science, except when it screws up.

Scichem doesn't effect the rest of science, except when it screws up.

Xenobio doesn't effect the rest of science, except when it screws up.

Genetics doesn't effect the rest of science, except when it screws up.

 

The first three are strictly sub-departments of science. The fourth one is a joint sub-department. Clearly, the fact that a sub-department is largely left to do its own thing isn't the deciding factor with regards to what is, and what is not, strictly a sub-department of science. What is? Whether that sub-department spends its time doing *research*. Genetics spends >95% of its time doing research. Therefore, by the criteria in actual usage, it should be a sub-department of science. Whether it provides things to other departments is irrelevant.

 

As to "helps medbay a ton", you could make that argument about anything. Security shooting spiders with eguns "helps medbay a ton". Cargo ordering medical supplies "helps medbay a ton". Engineering keeping the tesla contained "helps medbay a ton". This argument doesn't work for genetics - because it doesn't work for anything else either.

 

 

1. Genetics, when it even DOES screw up, doesn't affect science in ANY way. It falls to MEDICAL to fix genetic issues. Not once does it fall under science to fix their screw ups because it becomes either a medical issue or a security issue. At most, Science gives security Rapid Syringe guns and medical stocks them with mutadone to hunt the hulk/s.

2. Xenobiology can help the science department greatly with the resources they could make from the slimes, given enough time and luck. TO say they do NOTHING for science is completely wrong and a waste of their potential.

By that logic, Virology should go under Science. Without a virus loose, they do even LESS than genetics for medical. Thankfully we use a different logic.

By "helping a ton" I am sure they mean in a DIRECT manner rather than the ones you present. Please read on the many, and repeated, uses of genetics for medical.

 

If they wanted to treat people, why wouldn't they play doctor instead? Doctors, like geneticists, can clone, but they can also treat a bunch of other stuff. If they wanted to treat patients, it would be more logical for them to just select doctor rather than geneticist.

 

The fact they're picking geneticist should be treated as evidence they prefer doing genetic research, over treating patients, and expecting them to behave otherwise is not realistic, especially with the wall between them and the rest of medbay.

 

Just like the paramedic, virologist, chemist, psychologist, it is NOT THE GENETICISTS JOB OR RESPONSIBILITY to do regular Medical Doctor related things. So, yeah, I agree, no one should expect of them to do such things, even if 100% in the medical department.

Who cares if they get TK or hulk, so long as they use it responsibly? I've seen many times that hulk was used to stop a malf AI, for example. If on the other hand, someone is misusing hulk/TK, then I don't care whether they've been treating patients too, or not. If they abuse hulk/TK they should be demoted out of genetics, and shot with a mutadone SG/RSG for good measure.

 

Perhaps the solution there is simple: make it abundantly clear to geneticists that if they act like jerks with their powers, they will not only be stripped of them, they will be demoted out of genetics entirely.

 

Yes. A thousand times yes, no matter what anyone says. When CMO, I always make this clear, for their benefit.

 

I'm not going to go into any debate about science being "OP" or "better" than medical or such nonsense. They have an important role like every department. This isn't about "nerfing" science. This is just making things fit.

 

Also, yeah Shadey, I've once had to go through an entire monkey box in a round so the need of multiple bodies is important.

 

I spent too long on this and several posts had been put up. And I've had no sleep. I'll decide to add or what on the new stuff if no one else posts after this.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

Mutadone would be lovely if not bugged, sometimes. Other people have mentioned it and even seen it myself not fix a genetic issue and have believed for a while that it fixed only changed genetic issues rather than spawned ones. Also, a CLEAN SE is faster and works 100%. Most genetic issues are a single case issue so a huge batch a mutadone wont see much use.

 

Stop using bugs/glitches to buttress your argument points; it's disingenuous and dishonest.

 

Mutadone resets every single block; if it doesn't that's a bug and needs to be reported as such. Likewise, a good chemist can make 30+ units of mutadone in a few seconds; the geneticist can only make a single injector in that same amount of time...and the injector is going to cause rad damage in a patient. Clean SE's are literally worthless if you have mutadone lying around.

 

However, taking an existing lie (that genetics is a 50/50 medical/science department, which it blatently isn't)

 

Um. What. Genetics has always straddled two departments because it's been viewed, by the designers on a base level: cloning is treating someone/healing them, and therefore medical. Experimenting on and with genes is a research process--does it have medical ramifications? Yes; that doesn't mean it's necessarily mean it falls within medical's per view. R&D has medical ramifications, so does robotics (even more so post organ PR when augmentations come along)--but they're experimental in nature which is why they're heavily a part of science.

 

[Knightedskull]

That is true...I forgot an SE adds in radiation damage.

[Shadeykins]

 

I'm going to distill my argument, since there still seems to be a lot of confusion for some reason.

 

Genetics is required for medical to function.

 

Genetics is not required for science to function.

 

If it's going to be put under one department, it should be the department where their services are a requirement, not the one that isn't.

I support it being placed under one department entirely for the sake of accountability of geneticists, and making them not-impossible to fire. Geneticists being easier to fire will in turn help steer them back to actually doing the primary and most important component of their job, CLONING.

 

Cloning is I shit you not, the first thing mentioned on their job page after the two sentence summary (which also mentions it).

 

http://nanotrasen.se/wiki/index.php/Geneticist

 

They never do it despite this, and placing them directly in the medical department (as well as putting a damn window in) will alleviate this issue.

 

[DisreputableSquid]

 

First of all, i think that no matter WHO gets control, genetics really NEEDS to be handed over fully to one department or the other. They are the only job with such a clearly contested control issue, and all that having control of it split does is end up with it looking and feeling to most like its not really a part of either department and, as everyone has agreed on, left them with little to no accountability for their jobs on-shift since they can always turn it into a game of he-said, she-said between the CMO and the RD. This lack of solid connection to either department also makes RP as a geneticist difficult. Medbay staff can't really communicate with them other than radio aince they are always on the science side of their office, and when was the last time you saw a scientist in genetics who wasnt getting powers? Its effectively a hermatige by its current design, and that only further reinforces many Geneticists habit of just spending all their time on hunting superpowers rather then being a functional part of the station as a whole.

 

Now for the Question of if they should be given over to the CMO or RD, I come down solidly on the side of CMO, and for one solid reason, Cloning! The geneticists are SUPPOSED to be handling all cloning activity, and cloning is (or at least was supposed to be) their #1 Priority. All research is supposed to be put on hold when someone needs a new body, and we ALL know that the only reason general Medbay staff were given access to the cloning equipment was because many a geneticist didn't do this part of their job, typically because they (like a lot of new science players) took the job for the toys, not the responsibilities. This was also exacerbated by the poor design of the genetics area in general, since you were essentially isolated from the rest of medbay and had no way to know what was going on unless you were keeping a close eye on the comms or people were banging on your door with a pile of corpses. If the genetics area could be redone to give them more situational awareness of the rest of medbay and, and also have cloning be brought back under their full, generally exclusive control, then I don't think that the discussion of who it should be under would even be happening. Their job is like Virology, typically its just doing MEDICAL research, but when the situation calls for their specific skill sets, the research is put aside and their medical job takes top priority, and remains their top priority until the situation no longer requires them. That means that if there's a blob devouring the station or the Nuke Ops Team is gunning down the Greytide in the hallways, the hunt for the perfect power gets put on the back burner and it's time to start popping out pod people.