Re-buff space pods.

[xBoBox3]

 

Well, with the 13th of february update, pods have literally become the mowing chairs of the galaxy.

 

The movement speed of pods currently is impossibly slow and basically rendered them useless. I think DZD, when he patched the nerf, did not understand how hard it is to explore space with pods as-is (mechanic) and how hard killing space carp is (sec pod pilot). Currently, the mechanic job became about THREE times as hard because the entire point of the job is to fuck around in space and find loot, which was hard even before, since space is random as all hell and you might find yourself looping around space often, and the security pod pilot mostly has to patrol the outskirts of the station and kill space carp when the event happens. Space carp move FAST and dodge FAST and with the current movement speed of space pods, you're bound to die. Point is: pods were ALWAYS meant to be that fast and reducing their movement speed to that of an intergalactic wheelchair only ruins the TWO jobs that actually involve pods (which are both karma jobs, mind you) - the security pod pilot and the mechanic.

 

Basically, pods are too slow without any real reason and both jobs involving them became hard as shit. Why nerf them? What did they do to you?

 

[FlattestGuitar]

 

Pods are incredibly hard to fight against. Unless you have an ion gun all you can do is beg for mercy.

 

I think this nerf was well deserved.

 

[alexpkeaton]

I think pods were a little fast to start with. I'd be interested to know the specs of the nerf - how fast pods were before and how fast they are now. But I agree with Flattest that at least some nerf was deserved.

[Nakhi]

They went from Sanic speed to slightly faster than jetpack. While I do believe the nerf is good - many times 've been eluded by a dickbag in a space pod that manages to get going faster than me after they raided the armory or something - I do agree it's too slow. Now it renders it almost useless from a security enforcement standpoint. It takes 2-3 minutes to respond to an AI sat call, for example, rather than the 20-30 seconds (or less) beforehand. In that time the person probably manages to escape, and the former hero of the station (pod pilot, obviously) gets treated like standard shitcurity for not responding fast enough.

[NTSAM]

 

I got an idea, keep the nerf - But add engine types somehow.

 

At the start of the round the mechanic can only make standard engines (Now-speed pods) and while more research goes on they can make improved engines, which don't go as fast as the old GHOTTA GHO FASH pods but go faster than now pods.

 

Even later into the round they can make bluespace engines which go as fast as old pods. We could start the Sec pod with an improved engine, perhaps? And maybe we can shove a BS engine in the Armory somewhere.

 

[pinatacolada]

^ all of my yes. Mechanic and pod pilot should be BFFs.

[FlattestGuitar]

Actually have to agree. May be a bit hard to implement though...

[Nakhi]

I like the engine idea, definitely. It gives more "items" to add to the pod, rather than a cell, weapon, and a beacon that there is now. And... that's also all there is. So engines would be a nice little change. I think it'd be a bit harder to code though than it seems.

[Shadeykins]

 

The nerf is probably to make the space pod be an actual reasonable target for nukies to shoot down.

 

Prior to this if you were a nukie and encountered the sec pod you were basically just SOL.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

The nerf is probably to make the space pod be an actual reasonable target for nukies to shoot down.

 

Prior to this if you were a nukie and encountered the sec pod you were basically just SOL.

 

Yup.

 

With the way movement speed works in SS13, there's not too many levers to work with--this isn't like traditional games you're used to where you can increased speed by a percentage...thus, effectively having an infinite variety of different speeds---we have to use solid numbers, and the difference between those numbers is huge.

 

For example, even one speed level faster than current, and the pods travels at the same speed as projectiles, which puts them solidly back into the line of "can never be caught/shot at/can juke simple mobs/etc for days).

 

Also, please don't go with the argument of "space pods were always meant to be that fast". Space Pods are a Goon thing---and their speed is roughly the same as someone with a jetpack.

 

[pinatacolada]

 

Prior to this if you were a nukie and encountered the sec pod you were basically just SOL.

This is a gross overstatement. I've never managed to do more than land a couple of laser shots on one or two nukies if they were all still together. All my nukie kills were against solo nukies. I'll even do a run down of the engagements I have memory off:

 

 

• 4 nukies outside the incinerator, all shoot their cr90 or something like that at me, some of their shots land, while I don't even get to even try to shoot. I go back get some repairs done, and return, they are now spread between mining and cargo, still in space. One of them had the spirit of mind to shoot the ion carabine, i ded

   

• solo nukie floating eastwards towards the AI satellite, I manage to dodge most of the fire and wait for him to reload his shotgun, and when he does, I disable him, wait for him to drop, and then remove his suit while he begs for mercy, he ded

   

2 nukies running inside science maintenance by the windows, one of them is shooting something ballistic, the other one shoots an ion, I dodge a gun shot and fly towards the ion because I have brain damage, no one ded because they run off and then somehow explode

 

3 agressive vox raiders outside the armory, one of them throws an EMP grenade, I notice it and try to run from it, but it still just about gets to the pod, you can guess the rest

 

all the nukies heading out from their ship north of the old bar, I was waiting for them, they suppress me with ballistic gun fire, I manage to get one of them to drop with my disablers, but I can't do much more as I keep running from the bullets, they all eventually manage to get in the station

 

long time ago, I think 3 nukies outside the HoS office? Same as above, this time I get one or two of them with one or two laser shots, they all then get inside the station. Later in dchat one of them mentions that that laser shot fudged his movement speed which contributed to his death

 

 

Moral of the story is, if they nukies stay together in space, there's not a lot a space pod could do. If one of them has an ion carabine, odds are they can probably get the pod as well.

 

EDIT: don't get me wrong, the speed nerf was needed, but I think it's a bit too much the way it is right now

 

[Nakhi]

 

Let me preface this by saying I rarely go on the defense for features, but considering I have always, and still enjoy the pilot role, I'd rather not see it changed too drastically based on anecdotal remarks that don't really hold much water. So my opinion here is going to be biased, and kind of long winded. No I won't do a tl;dr version at the end.

 

Stuff

 

I can attest that as the sec pilot, you never were a threat so much as a harassment against nuke ops and the rare hostile Vox raiders. If you got too close to the former, there was the high chance of getting hit with an ion rifle when you're trying to line up. With the latter, they also have ion and EMP weapons to shut you in place. In both cases, you will be destroyed almost immediately.

 

Like Pinata, I could name a number of fights I got into with the pod against all threats. Ultimately they may be anecdotal, but in the end I can say that the pod pilot really isn't the super threat that people seem to think. Yes, it moves fast, but you're better off going around with a jetpack and a normal laser and taser. At the speed before, your only option was to take a quick shot, loop around, and line up again thanks to the laser and taser cooldown being longer than well... anything shot at you. I think it's 1-2 seconds between lasers, and maybe 1 second for tasers. Now if you were to do that, you're right in the line of fire, as a larger target, with no means to defend yourself since the weapons are one direction.

 

What the speed drop did, which was necessary, yes, because it was too fast, is render the security pilot useless. They may be able to catch up to a person with a jetpack, but that person also likely has more weapons than the pod and can fire them faster, as well as fire them in all directions and juke the straight line pod weapons each and every time. Then, when the pod fires, they have try to back off while still predicting where the target will be to make the next shot maybe land.

 

Against the average fugitive in space, i.e. a traitor around the AI sat or someone that escaped into space; the pod used to have an advantage, because the person didn't usually have time to prepare for a pod, or you could keep them suppressed in an area while Security moved in. Now it'll take 2-3 minutes to move from the pod bay to the AI satellite, assuming you're actually there at the time a call comes through.

 

Against a nuke op, you're probably going to be able to call out a location and harass the group a bit, but you likely won't be able to kill. At best you'd be able to stun one down with the pod tasers (happened to me, as the operative), giving you a chance to get out and take them solo. Ultimately the pilot is just the early warning and harasser, causing minor damage while Security prepares internally. In that sense, they'd be invaluable I believe.

 

Against hostile Vox, the same issue as above comes in. They're going to expect a pod response, and I believe they can hear sec comms so they know you're coming if you announce it. If you get hit with the ion rifle, pod is shut down. As has happened to me, most will keep hitting the pod with the ion rifle to kill it. One full charge will kill a pod.

 

Ultimately I do believe the speed nerf was needed, but now it's too slow to the point of obsolescence, which brings me to this.

 

Also, please don't go with the argument of "space pods were always meant to be that fast". Space Pods are a Goon thing---and their speed is roughly the same as someone with a jetpack.

 

Why do we have to be equivalent to Goon in this sense? Aren't we, as a server, meant to try to be somewhat unique? We've adopted a Goon-style chemistry, we've mixed some /tg/ features with other Bay features. We're an interesting mix of different code. Why move too heavily toward one direction, when it renders a coded role almost useless?

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

Why do we have to be equivalent to Goon in this sense? Aren't we, as a server, meant to try to be somewhat unique? We've adopted a Goon-style chemistry, we've mixed some /tg/ features with other Bay features. We're an interesting mix of different code. Why move too heavily toward one direction, when it renders a coded role almost useless?

 

We don't; I take issue with the argument though that they were somehow intentionally designed to be a particular speed, specifically to deal with carp/evade nuke ops/etc when they were a feature implemented on VG specifically to copy Goon's pods.

 

[Nakhi]

 

Why do we have to be equivalent to Goon in this sense? Aren't we, as a server, meant to try to be somewhat unique? We've adopted a Goon-style chemistry, we've mixed some /tg/ features with other Bay features. We're an interesting mix of different code. Why move too heavily toward one direction, when it renders a coded role almost useless?

 

We don't; I take issue with the argument though that they were somehow intentionally designed to be a particular speed, specifically to deal with carp/evade nuke ops/etc when they were a feature implemented on VG specifically to copy Goon's pods.

 

Alright, I concede that point. I misunderstood what was meant then.

 

[Shadeykins]

 

@Pinat.

 

I'd need several hands to tell you the number of times I've juked nukies and their guns, wasted all their ammo (because why do I need to shoot them really) and then hopped out before proceeding to steal their nuke (which also works as a convenient bullet sponge/shield) leaving my flaming pod in my wake which will promptly explode and probably kill 1 or 2 of them.

 

The sec pod/mechanic effectively counters the ops by forcing them to waste what little ammunition they have already.

 

A great tactic is to wedge your pod directly into their team and eject. You're standing on top of the pod and therefore can't really be hit by projectiles until you move, so you've got a 100% chance to click drag the nuke and fling yourself off into space with their nuke. Even if you die, with the way spaced objects interact with you it's impossible to get the nuke back, and if you don't you can juke and constantly push off it to change direction and outmaneuver anyone trying to grab it (which, grabbing a nuke flying in space is already impossibly hard).

 

As for the speed, it sounds like the value doesn't accept decimal places.

 

The difference between 3, and 2 in terms of speed when you're working with integers is astounding. (Mostly because from 2-3 is a 50% reduction)

 

Even if we scale it on a ten point system, where crit is 1, walking is 2, running is 3, jetpack is 4, adrenal is 5, and pod speed is 6... and ghosts are like, idk, 8-9.

 

Dropping the pod from 6 to 5 is still a 17% drop in speed which is VERY noticeable.

 

Edited February 15, 2016 by Guest

[sdtwbaj]

I'd say make pods a square faster, but stick delays on them every once and awhile where you have to let it charge for 5-6 seconds of that speed, otherwise it's slow.

[Dumbdumn5]

This would be great if space pods could actually drift still, but that was enough to make tiger pull their hair out, so I don't think anybody wants to touch that.

[pinatacolada]

 

A great tactic is to wedge your pod directly into their team and eject. You're standing on top of the pod and therefore can't really be hit by projectiles until you move, so you've got a 100% chance to click drag the nuke and fling yourself off into space with their nuke

The same way you can grab them, they can grab you too, or esword you, or pull you, or minibomb you, ... .Not to mention that has nothing to do with the pod's speed.

 

[alexpkeaton]

 

I do like the notion of engines. But if science does their job correctly and mining is half-competent, you'd be able to make the max engines pretty quick.

 

What about doing something like the mechs? If you have the option of putting the pod into "overdrive" that gives you a speed boost of 1 but triples battery use and maybe does damage to the pod over time?

 

[Shadeykins]

 

A great tactic is to wedge your pod directly into their team and eject. You're standing on top of the pod and therefore can't really be hit by projectiles until you move, so you've got a 100% chance to click drag the nuke and fling yourself off into space with their nuke

The same way you can grab them, they can grab you too, or esword you, or pull you, or minibomb you, ... .Not to mention that has nothing to do with the pod's speed.

 

The speed of the pod lets you more or less juke and get a good opportunity without being shot to shit.

 

Nukies typically don't react fast enough, minibombs are pretty much useless in space (since they'll be directly next to you), nobody in space has their esword out, nobody is going to bother using a grab in space... ETC.

 

You have more than enough time to totally ruin a nukies day and steal their nuke simply because you can move in fast enough without them being able to react.

 

I am speaking from experience.

 

You literally ram your pod in, CTRL+Click the nuke and fling yourself into space. If a nukie gets close enough to the nuke they'll "push off" of it and force you to more or less constantly juke them. You can also "push off" the nuke yourself while carrying it, and change direction.

 

This isn't even to mention you can throw things while dragging things, and throwing temporarily puts you above jetpack speeds... And if you've got a cable coil (which let's be honest, every pod pilot and mechanic has) you can just keep tossing them and literally outrun a nukie in space, while using the nuke as a bullet shield.

 

[Nakhi]

 

The speed of the pod lets you more or less juke and get a good opportunity without being shot to shit.

 

Nukies typically don't react fast enough, minibombs are pretty much useless in space (since they'll be directly next to you), nobody in space has their esword out, nobody is going to bother using a grab in space... ETC.

 

You have more than enough time to totally ruin a nukies day and steal their nuke simply because you can move in fast enough without them being able to react.

 

I am speaking from experience.

 

You literally ram your pod in, CTRL+Click the nuke and fling yourself into space. If a nukie gets close enough to the nuke they'll "push off" of it and force you to more or less constantly juke them. You can also "push off" the nuke yourself while carrying it, and change direction.

 

This isn't even to mention you can throw things while dragging things, and throwing temporarily puts you above jetpack speeds... And if you've got a cable coil (which let's be honest, every pod pilot and mechanic has) you can just keep tossing them and literally outrun a nukie in space, while using the nuke as a bullet shield.

 

I think you're using a single experience, a single anecdote, to try to argue why pods shouldn't be that fast. I think everyone agrees that they were too fast. However in using this story, again, it's the same argument. Just because one thing can happen doesn't mean it will. I don't think anyone would actually go through the trouble of all that just to give the operatives a hard time. I'd like to think that with Mechanic and Pod Pilot being behind the karma wall, and thus expected to have some experience on the server, that they wouldn't do this to the operatives, knowing how difficult the role is to begin with.

 

Beyond that, I can now say that while the pod can't really juke now, absolutely everyone else can. I had gotten into a minor chase with an individual in space. They hadn't really done anything wrong, had a regular jetpack, and were simply fleeing. One upside of the speed drop is that it was far easier to control and maneuver at the low speed. The downside is that the guy was juking every shot. I fired about 10 shots, possibly one or two more, with the tasers, and only 3 landed. This would be the case anyway unless I am shooting from off-screen, but now the pods have the disadvantage of being large, easily hit targets, while the pods still can't hit anything repeatedly thanks to the fact that the guns fire two beams on two tiles in a straight line that the pod is looking in.

 

The advantage of the pod was the speed, to avoid getting hit after making a harassing shot. And without resorting to cheap tactics, I personally have still lost multiple pods in combat. They are not, and were not, invincible just because they were fast. I've been hit with EMPs that shut the pod down, and a single one can put you out for 15 seconds or more. An operative with a glancing hit or a Vox that aimed the shot well will stop the pod, and the pilot will likely be dead soon, even if they eject and run.

 

Ultimately I believe the defenses being used to justify the speed drop - at least here in this thread - are based on a handful of stories of people exploiting the speed and, I'd argue, rarely if ever actually flying the pods to see the advantages and disadvantages. I may be wrong on that count of course.

 

[Shadeykins]

 

I've been playing for well over a year.

 

Security Pod Pilot was my first unlock, after IPC.

 

Mechanic was my next one after that.

 

I have also probably rolled for nuke-ops well over a hundred times by now, and been on the receiving end as well as the giving end.

 

I am talking about a slough of experiences, probably well over twenty that involved me doing it, firsthand.

 

This isn't even to get into the likely thousands of times nukies have had their nukes stolen or been royally screwed over by someone in a pod. I'm not sure how often you roll nuke-ops, but you seriously DO NOT have the ammo to waste on a pod whatsoever. Having one less magazine is generally the difference between you dying, and you getting a major victory. Most nukies fail explicitly because they run out of ammo, and become easy targets.

 

You do realize that the reason the syndicate shuttle has turrets is entirely because the mechanic/pod pilot would go find the shuttle, and steal the nuke right?

 

There is also no argument about "speeding it up just a little". It's either what it is now, or stupidly fast. There is no in between because as Fox has stated the numbers simply do not handle this way for movement.

 

The speed being what it is now encourages pods to stay closer to station, and lowers the chance of being randomly and pre-emptively discovered as a nukie (and subsequently ruining the entire round) by virtue of the pod not being able to speed around to every single point the nuke-ops ship is in 15 seconds.

 

Also, as a nukie, unless the Captain is an IPC you do not under any circumstances have the spare TC to reasonably invest in an EMP or the space required to tote around an Ion Gun. In fact, since the Ion Gun has a chance to set off explosive implants most nuke-ops avoid the thing like the plague.

 

It's HUGELY situational, it's ENTIRELY harmless to 95% of the crew, and it only fits in an exosuit slot (which you need for a regular gun).

 

[HereticChurch]

 

I've not personally had problems with the new pod speed, but I can see how this would really be annoying combat wise. I feel pods need a few more options for weapons.

 

Starting off the security pod with a burst-disabler, which is already in the code, might be handy. I think it does a burst of three disabler beams? Might make it a lot more useful. Adding in a few new weapons to the mechanic console might be good too, behind security-locked lockboxes so the pod pilot could open them themselves. A burst-laser would be good, after a bit of research. Perhaps a taser, for close range quick takedowns, and maybe even a laser cannon module for lategame.

 

I did like the suggestion for engines being upgradable. Perhaps armor could be upgraded as well. The sec pod should probably have armor that can bounce some melee attacks off of it, to make it simpler to deal with carp or other mobs in space. IIRC, Sec pods have 400 health and all other pods have 250. If their speed is too low to dodge, they should likely get a buff in health, though I have no clue what'd be balanced. Giving the mechanic more options when it comes to pod armor really would be nice. Civilian white being literally the only option is kinda annoying. Giving them some other colour choices would be great, as well as adding the ability to possibly make the security pod pilot a replacement pod for when they get shot up by nukies or vox.

 

Speaking of Nukies and Vox, I think they should get pods of their own! Not sure where to fit them on their ships, but it'd be a cool feature. Vox would obviously have a civilian model with disablers, but the nukies might have a military model with ballistics, or maybe even ion bolts, to deal with other pods effectively.

 

Overall I'd prefer pods were fleshed out more, now that they've lost one of the only redeeming features that made bothering to pay 30 karma to play their dedicated jobs worth it.

 

EDIT: What the hell... in testing, repairs use a shitton of welder fuel and take forever. It's 5 units of fuel for 10 health restored, and it has a slight delay. If you limp your sec pod back with 100 health, restoring it to 400 would take 150(!) units of welder fuel, and would take ages. That should probably be dialed down to something more reasonable.

 

Edited February 16, 2016 by Guest

[Shadeykins]

 

I can confirm on the taser thing.

 

The Burst Taser fires three disabler shots in rapid succession.

 

I'd rather see new aesthetics than anything else to be honest. Give the mechanic the ability to make different coloured pods if R&D is upgraded.

 

[davidchan]

 

To be entirely honest this whole ordeal makes me wish I could just cannibalize the space pod and just get a Gygax with maneuvering thrusters on it.

 

If someone in a jetpack can outrun a spacepod, that begs the question of why even have a sec pod in the first place.