Remove hulk

[Coldflame]

 

Hulk's been nerfed several times and still stands out as by far the 'best' genetic power. It puts all the other genetic powers to shame, is randomly acquired with little to no element of skill involved, and instantly skews the round in favor of whichever side gets it. Every time I have seen hulk used it's been in a capacity that made the round less dynamic and enjoyable for everyone but the hulk.

 

I honestly think that no amount of change will change the fact the core problems with what hulk does; the removal of instastun punches stopped it being blatantly gamebreaking but it's still (admittedly subjectively) overpowered and adds nothing to the game. From my personal experience, I have never seen hulk make a round more interesting, and certain gamemodes are outright ruined by it.

 

I can't really see the validitiy of the 'it's supposed to be op' argument here, either. Hulk is no harder to get than any other genetic power, all of which are either fluff of minor advantages (perhaps with a couple exceptions, but no other power compares). The downsides are limited at best; not being able to use ranged weaponry isn't an issue when you're stun immune.

 

I've included a poll as a way to gather quantitative what the general opinion on hulk as it currently stands is, given that balance discussions rarely result in a clear statement of opinion.

 

[davidchan]

Hulk and other combat powers going away would be no major loss. Specially when tully is admantly defending genetics right to maintain powers outside their lab.

[KasparoVv]

good fads never die

[liran424]

 

Well what did you expect? It was meant to be overpowered... mostly used by traitor geneticist and grey geneticists.

It's the CMO (RD?) job oversee and control genetic modification. If shit hits the fan a more than competent CMO can deal with the situation.

 

[liran424]

not to mention that with great power comes great [spoiler2]murderboning[/spoiler2] responsibility.

[Professor Cupcake]

Considering it's so easily countered, I don't see that much of a problem.

[TullyBBurnalot]

 

Specially when tully is admantly defending genetics right to maintain powers outside their lab.

 

Sigh...

 

Let's take it point for point, shall we?

 

1) Genetics Research is not Science Research: Science Research can quite literally be completed within 10-15 minutes, assuming a competent Scientist and minimal effort from the part of Mining. In fact, it doesn't even need Mining. The Mining Dock starts off with two silver ore chunks, which the QM can easily smelt and give to RnD. So yeah, Science doesn't even need Mining to maximize Research. Genetics Research, on the other hand, is double RNG:

 

 

1. All powers and disabilities are randomized at the start of the round;

2. Actually getting the damned things requires RNG not to be a bitch to you. It's more than possible for you to spend 5 minutes juggling a block from 1 to 9 while everything else mutates uselessly around you

 

 

Not to mention that the only viable way of handling research is either getting a player test subject, which slows down research considerably, since you have to make sure that they don't die, or testing it on yourself.

 

Even with two competent Geneticists, depending on RNG, Genetics research will be finished 45-60 minutes in. A single Geneticist will most likely spend most of the round hitting the Irradiate button to get everything finished, seeing as this also includes testing, cataloging and, for disabilities, removal.

 

2) Relative Power: 15 minutes in, Robotics is fully capable of making incredibly well-armed military Exosuits at the drop of a hat. Literally the only thing stopping them, mechanically, is resources, and if Science upgrades the Ore Machine, that ceases to be an issue as long as you have at least one active miner. Said Exosuits can quite easily murder a huge chunk of the crew and, if Security isn't on the ball, murder them as well. Said Exosuits can also only be properly countered with Ion Weaponry, and even then you can mount a Taser and ensure whoever is holding the Rifle/Carbine drops it.

 

Genetics, on the other hand, has a multitude of utility powers that can legitimately be used for the sake of the crew. Telekinesis and Hulk are the only ones that can actually be abused properly to cause legitimate harm (Cryokinesis is a joke in that regard), but here's the main point:

 

It is ridiculously easier to take down a Geneticist than an Exosuit.

 

If you're the CMO, or the RD, you either have access to a Syringe Gun, or can make one. You have access to Chem Dispensers, and beakers, and syringes. Literally all you need to do is make a beaker of Mutadone, load up on a single syringe, find the Geneticist (who has less access than you, so you can very easily track them down) and shoot them.

 

Once.

 

Boom. Powers gone. Suddenly the Geneticist is just a random schmuck.

 

3) Lethal Force: As stated, the only real way of handling a rogue Exosuit is via Ion Weaponry. Tracking Beacons are hilariously useless in that regard. However, this poses an issue, in that there is one Ion Rifle at roundstart, locked in the Armory, and if the Head of Security or Warden aren't on the ball, GG. Even if they are, the Exosuit can still fight back with the proper weaponry or, in the case of Gygax or Phazon, attempt to evade the shots. Hell, the Phazon can just go into space, and suddenly you can't touch it properly.

 

By contrast, if you're a Hulk with Telekinesis and you're abusing these powers, you are literally a single E-Gun away from lying on the ground in Critical Condition. Lethal Force being applied to rampaging Hulks is outlined in both Space Law and the Guide to Security. Harmbatoning a Hulk is even a viable strategy for the robust Officer, seeing as Hulk punches no longer instastun people.

 

TL;DR: Forcing Geneticists to never leave the Genetics lab, ever, without taking a shot of Mutadone, is needlessly draconic.

 

[davidchan]

 

Specially when tully is admantly defending genetics right to maintain powers outside their lab.

 

Sigh...

 

Let's take it point for point, shall we?

 

1) Genetics Research is not Science Research: Science Research can quite literally be completed within 10-15 minutes, assuming a competent Scientist and minimal effort from the part of Mining. In fact, it doesn't even need Mining. The Mining Dock starts off with two silver ore chunks, which the QM can easily smelt and give to RnD. So yeah, Science doesn't even need Mining to maximize Research. Genetics Research, on the other hand, is double RNG:

 

 

1. All powers and disabilities are randomized at the start of the round;

2. Actually getting the damned things requires RNG not to be a bitch to you. It's more than possible for you to spend 5 minutes juggling a block from 1 to 9 while everything else mutates uselessly around you

 

 

Not to mention that the only viable way of handling research is either getting a player test subject, which slows down research considerably, since you have to make sure that they don't die, or testing it on yourself.

 

Even with two competent Geneticists, depending on RNG, Genetics research will be finished 45-60 minutes in. A single Geneticist will most likely spend most of the round hitting the Irradiate button to get everything finished, seeing as this also includes testing, cataloging and, for disabilities, removal.

 

2) Relative Power: 15 minutes in, Robotics is fully capable of making incredibly well-armed military Exosuits at the drop of a hat. Literally the only thing stopping them, mechanically, is resources, and if Science upgrades the Ore Machine, that ceases to be an issue as long as you have at least one active miner. Said Exosuits can quite easily murder a huge chunk of the crew and, if Security isn't on the ball, murder them as well. Said Exosuits can also only be properly countered with Ion Weaponry, and even then you can mount a Taser and ensure whoever is holding the Rifle/Carbine drops it.

 

Genetics, on the other hand, has a multitude of utility powers that can legitimately be used for the sake of the crew. Telekinesis and Hulk are the only ones that can actually be abused properly to cause legitimate harm (Cryokinesis is a joke in that regard), but here's the main point:

 

It is ridiculously easier to take down a Geneticist than an Exosuit.

 

If you're the CMO, or the RD, you either have access to a Syringe Gun, or can make one. You have access to Chem Dispensers, and beakers, and syringes. Literally all you need to do is make a beaker of Mutadone, load up on a single syringe, find the Geneticist (who has less access than you, so you can very easily track them down) and shoot them.

 

Once.

 

Boom. Powers gone. Suddenly the Geneticist is just a random schmuck.

 

3) Lethal Force: As stated, the only real way of handling a rogue Exosuit is via Ion Weaponry. Tracking Beacons are hilariously useless in that regard. However, this poses an issue, in that there is one Ion Rifle at roundstart, locked in the Armory, and if the Head of Security or Warden aren't on the ball, GG. Even if they are, the Exosuit can still fight back with the proper weaponry or, in the case of Gygax or Phazon, attempt to evade the shots. Hell, the Phazon can just go into space, and suddenly you can't touch it properly.

 

By contrast, if you're a Hulk with Telekinesis and you're abusing these powers, you are literally a single E-Gun away from lying on the ground in Critical Condition. Lethal Force being applied to rampaging Hulks is outlined in both Space Law and the Guide to Security. Harmbatoning a Hulk is even a viable strategy for the robust Officer, seeing as Hulk punches no longer instastun people.

 

TL;DR: Forcing Geneticists to never leave the Genetics lab, ever, without taking a shot of Mutadone, is needlessly draconic.

 

Nice strawman, but your argument is beside the point to downright fallacies.

 

1) Genetics can, and has been completed in under 20 minutes before too. People who are competent at genetics can breeze through it just as quickly as RnD can be done. It's RNG, but if you know what you're doing it's easy push the numbers which ever way you need to.

 

Mining is a requirement to get combat mechs. Combat Gene powers will always be in the round, maybe not all of them but various powers exist solely for combat, like Hulk and Cryokinesis.

 

2) There has never been, and probably never will be, a Roboticist with a fully built Gygax in 20 minutes. Even with competent miners and Research, best case scenario they need to wait at least 30 minutes to get the necessary silver just to completely the body of the mech. Genetics has no such roadblocks that prevent them from finishing their job without outside help.

 

3) Genetcists fully loaded up on genetic powers are significantly more dangerous than a fully loaded Gygax or Durand, yet there no SoP restricting them from taking their murder powers outside of their lab? Seriously? A Mech can be shut down with a swipe of an ID and push of a button, power cells can be removed, DNA locked and they are generally slow enough that anyone robust and not charging right at it can take it out, I've smashed apart Ripleys using a Sonic Jackhammer.

 

Genetics, on the flip side, can only be stopped with a syringe gun. Meaning you get limited shots with a weapon that can be blocked with a spacesuit or standard juking, something a mech can't do.

 

TL;DR: Forcing Geneticists to never leave the Genetics lab, ever, without taking a shot of Mutadone, is needlessly draconic.

 

Genetics can make clean SE's, it would take them 5 seconds to clear their powers and reset them. Why should they be allowed to freely roam the halls with the power to smash walls, blast people with cold, never leave a finger print or breathe in space without any repercussions? You've already made it clear in your SoP that it isn't intent that matters in terms of what can and can't be done, but capability. And a geneticist is far more capable of causing damage to the station with none of the limiting factors mechs have. But hey, why not, let's freely let this guy who can move things with his minds, see through walls and blast people with icicles at will wander around the station without any accountability.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

Can't seem to change my vote, tear one from the first option and slap it on No.2.

[thebeoni]

No, why do i say Hulk shouldnt be removed? If you are robust enough you can fend off hulk easily. Just by repeatedly beating them they will turn human once again. Or take your laser and go pew pew at it.

[TullyBBurnalot]

 

Firstly, it was not my intention to come off as strawmanning. I was simply stating my own line of reasoning, considering recent observation of station functioning.

 

Genetcists fully loaded up on genetic powers are significantly more dangerous than a fully loaded Gygax or Durand,

 

Maybe I'm missing something entirely, but in terms of sheer damage, and on practical terms with what tends to happen in combat, I have to completely disagree on this point. I honestly don't know, maybe I've just seen Geneticists that are bad at combat, but from where I stand, a rogue mech can inflict a hell of a lot more damage to the crew than a single Geneticist.

 

Hell, an AC2 LMG can mow down the whole of Security if they're not carrying the Ion Rifle before even needing to reload. The Phazon can be used to waltz into the Armory and steal all the guns.

 

Comparatively, being able to remotely toolbox someone is minor, especially considering that any Geneticists who so much as brush anyone with TK immediately get on everyone's shitlist.

 

Genetics, on the flip side, can only be stopped with a syringe gun. Meaning you get limited shots with a weapon that can be blocked with a spacesuit or standard juking, something a mech can't do.

 

Well, military Exosuits are also resistant to a hell of a lot more damage than any hardsuit on the station. And with the RD, syringes and Mutadone will never be in short supply.

 

That said, the "capacity over competence" argument does hold some weight. I wouldn't mind putting it up for public opinion to see how people react to "No combat-capable mutations outside Genetics without RD approval".

 

[SkyPing]

 

I want to place a long response to this but can't since I'm in between music auditions right now.

 

But I do quickly want to say that I fully agree with the notion that it's illegal for geneticists to have any combat powers (Hulk, telekinesis) outside of the lab, at least on green or blue alert. I have no idea how being hulked is in any way different than brandishing an activated stun baton in your hand.

 

Even the better geneticists I've seen on the station that ARENT power hungry scumbags end up causing station damage with hulk on, even by complete accident.

 

Sorry for going off topic; I just never found an appropriate time to state that opinion until now.

 

[pinatacolada]

[TullyBBurnalot]

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7209

[alexpkeaton]

 

There have been enough threads about geneticists needing more supervision/SoP/nerfs. And, it seems that every few rounds there is a geneticist that causes some sort of headache for command. I'd bet cash money that it's not much more infrequent that a geneticist causes some sort of headache for the admins.

 

Let's look at round-enders easily accessed by jobs and the checks they have from being used:

 

Weapons

 

• Science has lockboxes.

Security has loyalty implants and Code SoP.

Cargo has locked crates.

Everyone without a permit has Beepsky

 

 

Mechs

 

• Standard Operating Procedure.

Time. It takes time to build one. That and...

Visibility of department. Everyone can see what Robotics is up to, and if the blinds are closed, it will cause security, the department and the AI to be even more suspicious.

The RD can remotely wipe Robotics' research access if it comes down to it (at least I think so)

Visibility of mechs. You can't hide them in your backpack.

Tracking modules and remote shutdown (I think that's a thing).

Ion guns in the armory.

 

 

Atmos

 

• Admins - you mess with atmos at your own peril.

Also atmos alerts and the AI.

 

 

Xenobio

 

• Standard Operating Procedure.

Being located in the bowels of science buys some time.

The xenobio airlock, and in total, four doors between it and science proper.

The AI's ability to lockdown xenobio and be a first warning system.

 

 

Bombs

 

• Not much, really. But if you use one on someone and aren't an antag, you go bye-bye.

 

 

Virals

 

• Staged diseases

Medibots

MedicalHUDs

Permanently curable

 

 

 

It just seems that genetics, like bombs, have no IC checks against abuse, but not the same amount of teeth in the threat of admin intervention. You can use TK willy-nilly around the station, and the worst thing that will happen is that you will be arrested for petty theft. Hulk is the only one with a glimmer of a threat of admin intervention, and that's only if you end someone's round with it. Other than that, it's left to be dealt with IC.

 

And it's a little bit of a fallacy these arguments saying that a rogue geneticist is easily stopped. Sure, they might be, but there is nothing, absolutely nothing, that checks them from causing the problem in the first place. Usually, when geneticists are causing problems, they are not in their lab, but among the crew, and as soon as they hear over the radio that they've become persona non grata, they will scatter to the four winds. Suddenly, a security manhunt is underway for someone who likely isn't even an antag. And, security typically doesn't carry mutadone and there's no shared comms channel with medbay besides common to arrange to distribute mutadone, so this situation can get bloody very easily.

 

I'd be in favor of eliminating Hulk, for the precise reason that there is no pre-emptive check on its power. However, I think it could be brought back if and when such a check on genetics is made. And, I think there are a few things that could do that:

 

 

• Beepsky. Have a "genetic powers" license on the ID, do not grant it to geneticists but heads and loyalty implanted only, and have the Beeps arrest anyone who has certain specific powers. It's not so farfetched, the forensic analyzer can already read DNA from a distance, medibots can detect virals. The hard part would be the IC explanation how Beeps can detect certain genetic modifications from others. Or, instead of arrest, Beeps can make a notification over comms "Jack Edwardson in the Central Primary Hallway has been genetically modified!"

Have medibots make notification over medical comms if an individual is genetically modified, as in the Beepsky example. Many times there are inadvertant mutations that are a medbay issue anyway.

Some sort of mutadone-delivery mechanism being standard issue equipment for security officers.

Genetics airlock that locks down if you try to take injectors out of the department, and/or forces you to take mutadone somehow "The airlock begins to fill with a purple mist!" The airlock's protections could be disabled with CMO/RD/Captain's ID.

 

 

tl;dr: Genetics just doesn't have the pre-emptive checks on round-enders that other lethals do have, removing Hulk in the short term would be a good idea until some sort of pre-emptive check is instituted.

 

Edited February 20, 2016 by Guest

[Coldflame]

 

I don't want to argue balance backwards in forth in circles, but I'll add that whilst one or two hulks can be dealt with without specialized tactics, a group of hulks can only be stopped by mass distribution of mutadone.

 

If the crew get hulk, the antags have little chance of winning, and if the antags get hulk, the crew have little chance of winning.

 

[pipextiny]

I don' think the loss of hulk would hurt a lot. Its hard for sec to keep it in check because of the stun immunity and even if you blast them back to being human what is stopping them from just getting the injector again? And the "oh they are weak toment is lazes" argu sort of silly because you know, every one is... As for the Mutadone one, whats stopping them from carrying round more then one injector?

[saywat_the_15th]

[liran424]

Still supporting hulk staying...

[Cupcakes_n_Hacksaws]

 

I don' think the loss of hulk would hurt a lot. Its hard for sec to keep it in check because of the stun immunity and even if you blast them back to being human what is stopping them from just getting the injector again? And the "oh they are weak toment is lazes" argu sort of silly because you know, every one is... As for the Mutadone one, whats stopping them from carrying round more then one injector?

 

You mean you're going to subdue a hulk and NOT search/demote them?

 

[sdtwbaj]

Hulk is great and all, especially on Xeno rounds. I'd say just nerf it, or disassemble its components into other powers (stun immunity and super strength)

[SomanB]

 

Here's an idea. Neither too draconian, nor too liberal on either side of the fence, I think.

 

 

Any geneticist (hell, lets say ANYONE) who wants to have "combat" genemods like Hulk will be required to have a mutadone chem implant installed before they are allowed to leave the lab.

 

 

Once they have a loaded chem implant installed, they can go where they like on the station. They start acting up, pop the implant, and blam, no more gene mods.

 

 

I mean, making it SoP to not leave the lab isn't going to stop shitters. It isn't going to slow down the antags. It will cramp the non-antag non-shitters.

 

An implant won't bother the non-antag non-shitter types, and it'll give sec and the crew a warm fuzzy when the green man with TK is running around.

 

 

(This post was made while.....really high on pain meds. If it doesn't make sense, let me know)

 

[liran424]

 

Here's an idea. Neither too draconian, nor too liberal on either side of the fence, I think.

 

 

Any geneticist (hell, lets say ANYONE) who wants to have "combat" genemods like Hulk will be required to have a mutadone chem implant installed before they are allowed to leave the lab.

 

 

Once they have a loaded chem implant installed, they can go where they like on the station. They start acting up, pop the implant, and blam, no more gene mods.

 

 

I mean, making it SoP to not leave the lab isn't going to stop shitters. It isn't going to slow down the antags. It will cramp the non-antag non-shitters.

 

An implant won't bother the non-antag non-shitter types, and it'll give sec and the crew a warm fuzzy when the green man with TK is running around.

 

 

(This post was made while.....really high on pain meds. If it doesn't make sense, let me know)

 

Basicly a chemical implant that's already loaded with mutadone.

 

I don't know guys... I feel this is going out of hand.

I mean... I see the reason to control "combat genes", but why should we allow having them in the first place?

In my opinion, "combat genes" are like the illegal R&D tech. No ones carries (or admit carrying) illegal research gear because they know they'll get a tool box to the head for that. And the same mentality should be with "combat genes"... if you see anyone hulking and grunting around (even if they did nothing wrong) they should be shot down and thrown into a tiny cell for even thinking of injecting themselves with the genes.

 

HERE PROBLEM SOLVED.