Lock boxes 2 electric boogaloo

[Rumiluntti]

 

Competent RD has nothing to do with rampant shitters printing out literal armories into their backpacks just to validhunt and to be dicks.

RD is not supposed to guard the printer.

 

[Coldflame]

 

RD isn't supposed to be a scientist with teleporter and bridge access- if someone's printing out guns, the RD should put two and two together, take the gun off them, and call sec- keeping a rough count of the materials the protolathe has and who's using it when isn't exactly difficult.

 

CE, HoS, CMO, and the QM all have to babysit their departments- RD has lockboxes doing that (unsucessfully, most of the time) instead.

 

as it stands, lockboxes should either stop science printing off anything dangerous, or get removed entirely in favor of making RDs responsible for what science does and handing out jobbans for greytiding and shittery whilst playing it

 

[Rumiluntti]

 

You are seriously saying that RD should stand in front of the protolathe all round every round?

Instead of lockboxing the stuff scientists shouldn't have?

 

Who would want to play that?

 

Lockboxes allow antags to still get their antaggy hands on the goods but prevents the scientists from printing a small armory "just in case".

 

[Coldflame]

 

RD should be paying enough attention to the protolathe to stop people having time to print of masses of weapons, yes. All the other heads are expected to micromanage their departments- keeping an eye on the protolathe and monitoring materials usage is still far, far less responsibility than any other head. The RD's one job is to keep science in check- something they fail to do to the point of needing lockboxes to do their job for them.

 

Yes- this is less 'fun' than it is to be a scientist. The fact that the RD regularly explores the gateway or personally works on a large science project attests to the fact the job is currently played far, far differently than every other member of command staff.

 

[ProperPants]

Why is it a bad thing that RD is played differently from the rest of command staff? Why shouldn't a top level scientist work on science projects? Why should the RD have to babysit the protolathe if it does nothing harmful? People print too many weapons isn't much of an argument since the weapons are all lockboxed. This is a video game, not real life. Realistically, if such a station existed, RD would pay closer attention to the protolathe. But at that point, access to Research and Development wouldn't be given to Xenobiology, Xenoarchaeology, or Chemical Researchers. It would be given to one or two people, who would be hired by a corporation for being responsible, not insane. This is one of the goofiest games on the planet - RD doesn't need to babysit anyone. You fire or arrest (or ban) people if they are causing harm to others, not babysit them every waking second of your life. Even if someone goes magically got a hold of a ton of guns and decided to use them, they would be taken down, you would get cloned, and they would get banned.

[Coldflame]

 

why should the RD be held to a different standard?

 

If the CE went to the engineering outpost at the start of the round without setting up the engine and began working on a construction project, they'd get demoted

If the HoS went around maint the whole round solo hunting antags without saying a word, they'd get jobbanned

If the CMO spent the whole round making a custom virus, they'd probably end up demoted (depending on how competent the rest of the department is).

 

[Dinarzad]

 

This is literally in the RD's job description.

Like.... If you're NOT doing tihs, you're not being an RD you're being a glorified Scientist and why are you being a head of staff?

To quote the wiki page:

 

"Unlike most Heads of Staff, your job isn't so much to keep your staff working as it is to keep them from doing so. Or, at least, to keep them from doing so badly.

 

Technically speaking, your job is the least vital out of any of the Heads of Staff. The Science division isn't vital to the continued operations of the Cyberiad, even if it is why it's there in the first place. The station won't fall apart if the slimes die, alien artefacts never get studied, and bombs never get made. It will, however, fall apart if the slimes escape, if dangerous alien artefacts aren't well-monitored, or if a poorly-made bomb destroys the Escape arm.

 

So, in short, keep your staff from screwing everything up royally and keep the other Heads informed about anything weird going on."

"Your official responsibility is to ensure that nobody does anything they shouldn't."

 

[ProperPants]

 

"Your official responsibility is to ensure that nobody does anything they shouldn't."

 

In many ways, this takes care of itself.

 

R&D - Can't print guns. Only weapons they can make are flamethrowers and stunprod. If they make one or two and you aren't in the room when they do it, you can't know. If they start stockpiling, it's likely you'll notice and take action.

 

Robotics - If they make deathmechs and rampage, someone shouts on comms and you shut the mech down from your office. If they don't rampage, they're doing nothing wrong. If they abduct people to borg them when not an antag, the person shouts on comms and the abductor likely gets banned. If they are an antag, what do they gain out of forced borging? A borg would tattle. At this point, they're just killing people like an antag should.

 

Toxins - The only thing they can do is blow up themselves. You cannot drag take a Toxins bomb anywhere too important without someone noticing. If they did make a bomb as an antag and plan on using it, and you aren't there to see them making it, there's nothing you could have done. If you do see them making a bomb, you assume it's for a bomb test. If you sit in the room and wait, they use it for a bomb test to trick you. If you sit there forever, it's just boring as fuck for both of you. If you happen to notice them the moment they take it out of the room, you take action.

 

Chemistry - If they are making deathchems and grenades for testing on monkeys in the test chamber, good for them. If they are an antag and making deathchems for antag stuff, it's easy to hide beakers and grenades. If you sit in front of Test Lab door all day watching, it's boring for you and them. Plus, then who's watching that shithead in Toxins? Plus, you're not a TSA Agent - you don't need to search people coming in and out of the Test Lab. PLUS, Science has a shitton of exits through maintenance tunnels.

 

Xenobio - If they make tons of shit, wonderful. If they release it and it's hostile, take action - kill their pets and get them demoted. If they are an antag and they released hostile shit, what could you have done? Sat in Xenobio watching to make sure they never released anything? Boring, plus who's watching Toxins and Test Lab?

 

Genetics - Not supposed to give out genemods. They normally ask permission. If they rampage, the solution is as simple as a syringe gun and mutadone. If they are an antag genemodding themselves, nothing you can do to prevent it. Unless you were sitting in the room watching the entire time, but then who's watching everybody else?

 

Assuming every single science slot was filled and everybody is an antag, it's impossible for one person to watch everyone at once. In the time it takes to check on one department, someone from any of the other departments can sneak out with their weapon.

 

Assuming only one person is an antag, you can't know who. You can choose to helicopter over one subdivision of science, because it's boring and you're more likely to pick the one that doesn't have an antag in it.

 

Assuming nobody is an antag, you shouldn't need to babysit everyone (aside from the fact it's impossible). If they start doing catastrophic actions, they will get jobbanned or banned banned. Short of actually seeing the SciChemist putting a grenade in his bag, or the Toxins mixer dragging a bomb out, you can't really prevent someone from going rogue. If you do see such drastic actions, you use the handy-dandy telebaton to subdue them, assuming they didn't listen to words first.

 

So, everything boils down to the fact that it's impossible to watch everyone at once and nobody wants to get banned for self-antagging.

 

Of course the RD will act appropriately if they notice something suspicious or hear someone yell on comms "deatchmech!" But up until the moment of crisis, there isn't much the RD can do to babysit.

 

[ProperPants]

 

Christ, I'm doing this in two parts because it's so long.

 

If the CE went to the engineering outpost at the start of the round without setting up the engine and began working on a construction project, they'd get demoted.

This one I'm not too sure about. Is the CE literally the only person (besides Captain) who can set up power? If not, it's not a huge deal, so long as they tell an engineer to set up power. Really, what do engineers do all round? Especially, what other pressing duties do they have at the very start of a round? Priority 1 should be power.

 

If the HoS went around maint the whole round solo hunting antags without saying a word, they'd get jobbanned.

Or banned for valid hunting, or killed in a maintenance tunnel.

 

If the CMO spent the whole round making a custom virus, they'd probably end up demoted (depending on how competent the rest of the department is).

If medical was relaxed and the CMO was not absolutely needed elsewhere, it would be fine. If they were needed, they would go. The same is the case for the RD - do projects and whatnot if you can, not if somebody needs you.

 

The heads of each department are the same as their underlings, plus a little bit extra.

The CE is an engineer. They can do whatever engineering things they want so long as nobody gets harmed.

The CMO is a doctor. They can do surgery, or make meds, or make a virus, or do genetics.

The HoS is an officer. They enforce peace and make arrests.

The RD is a scientist. They can do research, or robotics, or toxins, or xenobio, or chem mixing.

 

Barring true command staff (IAA, Blueshield, Captain, and HoP), the heads are hybrids of command and their department and are perfectly allowed to do both. Command comes first, of course, but they can do their department's duties if not needed elsewhere. If they aren't needed in command, and they shouldn't do their department stuff, what would you have them do? Sit in their office, twiddling their thumbs and faxing CentComm shitposts out of boredom?

 

Even in a case of crisis, such as Code Red and above, what could each head do?

RD - Not much. Not a fighter. Has no weapons. Can print guns and tools for Security and Engineering during a crisis. Can even make medical grenades if asked. If it comes to an extreme point, the Captain will outright tell the RD to grab a gun from the protolathe, unlock it, and tell the RD what to do.

CE - Not much. Not a fighter. Can fix emergency breaches with the RCD. If needed in an extreme, will fight when provided weapon.

CMO - Not much. Not a fighter. In an emergency, sit in medbay and heal/clone the flood of people coming in or fight under Captain's orders.

HoS - Literally the only one who can and should do something. HoS's job is to keep the peace and arrest offenders - both of which are desperately needed in an emergency. Acting during an emergency is just an extension of the HoS's job during any other code.

 

There aren't many situations where command is full of tasks to do at every moment. If a meeting is called or a single head is told to come to the bridge for command stuff, they will listen or get demoted. If the situation is critical and it comes to the point where anyone but the HoS and Sec has to directly deal with combat, then the station is beyond fucked. The Captain will order each head what to do, and they will listen or get demoted/jobbanned. Outside of these extreme situations, there isn't much to do in command and therefore no reason not to do departmental stuff.

 

[improvedname]

 

You are seriously saying that RD should stand in front of the protolathe all round every round?

Instead of lockboxing the stuff scientists shouldn't have?

 

Who would want to play that?

 

Lockboxes allow antags to still get their antaggy hands on the goods but prevents the scientists from printing a small armory "just in case".

 

Or just port pins simce they are also emaggable and gives you also access to the gun you put it inside just emagg demn test field ramge pins

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

You are seriously saying that RD should stand in front of the protolathe all round every round?

Instead of lockboxing the stuff scientists shouldn't have?

 

Who would want to play that?

 

Lockboxes allow antags to still get their antaggy hands on the goods but prevents the scientists from printing a small armory "just in case".

 

Or just port pins simce they are also emaggable and gives you also access to the gun you put it inside just emagg demn test field ramge pins

 

And for antags that don't get emags, it's a giant "fuck you" to anyone that manages to, say, disarm an officer's Egun, because now the antag can't use it against them.

I don't like firing pins at all.

 

[improvedname]

 

You are seriously saying that RD should stand in front of the protolathe all round every round?

Instead of lockboxing the stuff scientists shouldn't have?

 

Who would want to play that?

 

Lockboxes allow antags to still get their antaggy hands on the goods but prevents the scientists from printing a small armory "just in case".

 

Or just port pins simce they are also emaggable and gives you also access to the gun you put it inside just emagg demn test field ramge pins

 

And for antags that don't get emags, it's a giant "fuck you" to anyone that manages to, say, disarm an officer's Egun, because now the antag can't use it against them.

I don't like firing pins at all.

 

And loyality pins are combat 6

And are expensive and require you to cut the pin out of the egun to replace it

 

[liran424]

This thread shifted from lock boxes to SOP to ethics and back to lock boxes and finally to pins? Well in my opinion we shouldn't import them.

[Fox McCloud]

 

And for antags that don't get emags, it's a giant "fuck you" to anyone that manages to, say, disarm an officer's Egun, because now the antag can't use it against them.

 

Actually, after looking into firing pins more, this isn't how it actually works; there ARE firing pins that are locked to having to be loyalty implanted, but they require diamonds and very very high combat tech to get. 99% of the time, it's just going to be regular firing pins that are available (sec starts off with 14--more can be ordered via cargo).

 

It does negatively impact non-traitor antags, to a certain degree---as they can't just get a high level ID to unlock guns.

 

[improvedname]

Yeah but with the boxes its easy to mass produce guns stun revolvers etc and with the pins it get limited in a certain amount of time

[Regen]

 

RD should be paying enough attention to the protolathe to stop people having time to print of masses of weapons, yes. All the other heads are expected to micromanage their departments- keeping an eye on the protolathe and monitoring materials usage is still far, far less responsibility than any other head. The RD's one job is to keep science in check- something they fail to do to the point of needing lockboxes to do their job for them.

 

Yes- this is less 'fun' than it is to be a scientist. The fact that the RD regularly explores the gateway or personally works on a large science project attests to the fact the job is currently played far, far differently than every other member of command staff.

 

You're being ignorant and obviously have a very warped perspective of things, have you ever actually played as the RD? Like ever?

 

Say, for an example, you go down to xenobio to check how people are doing, you use 5 minutes to check and talk to people, as you do.

 

Two scientists in R&D just printed 2 SMG's and 5 mags each in the time you were gone

 

By your logic, this is the RD's fault for EVER leaving the protolathe, you're literally saying that the RD should ALWAYS be watching the protolathe at all times, completely ignoring the fact that the RD is a head, and R&D is one very small part of Science as a whole, AND that the RD has, in fact, ,yes, you guessed it, more responsibilities as a head, and any good RD would be watching over his entire department, not just the protolathe

 

[davidchan]

 

I still say we should abandon the lockboxes and go to a RnD server lock (you know, that one feature the RD is supposed to have that was never used.)

 

RnD schematics that are weapons/dangerous (I.E. anything currently in a lockbox) is locked out from the protolathe by default. When the research is accomplished, the item is just greyed out and can't be built. RD could unlock specific items from the Research Server control room, and would be responsible for anything that happens should he unlock something. Emagging the RnD Console/Protolathe would remove all locks. Non-Traitor antags could still hack into the RnD server and attempt to manually unlock items.

 

In short, antags who would want guns but don't have access to an emag would still have a means to get them without killing a high profile target (Captain, HoS, Warden or HoP) who they probably want the guns to deal with in the first place.

 

[Rumiluntti]

 

Like it has been stated multiple times, if there is a way to open lockboxes illegitimately as non antag, it will become the new meta.

The protolathe lock also disallows using the items for research.

Literally shittier and more annoying version of lockboxes.

 

[saywat_the_15th]

 

I still say we should abandon the lockboxes and go to a RnD server lock (you know, that one feature the RD is supposed to have that was never used.)

 

RnD schematics that are weapons/dangerous (I.E. anything currently in a lockbox) is locked out from the protolathe by default. When the research is accomplished, the item is just greyed out and can't be built. RD could unlock specific items from the Research Server control room, and would be responsible for anything that happens should he unlock something. Emagging the RnD Console/Protolathe would remove all locks. Non-Traitor antags could still hack into the RnD server and attempt to manually unlock items.

 

In short, antags who would want guns but don't have access to an emag would still have a means to get them without killing a high profile target (Captain, HoS, Warden or HoP) who they probably want the guns to deal with in the first place.

 

This is brilliant.

But i fear that if someone emags the lathe and unlocks the levels, RD will get lynched.

There should be some kinda indication if it has been emagged.

Maybe if you disassemble the lathe it would show sumthin indicating an emag.

 

And RD can unlock shit for research Rumi

 

[Rumiluntti]

 

It just adds unnecessary hassle compared to the working lockboxes.

I really do not see the reason why lockboxed stuff should be avaliable to regular scientists, that's what these systems are all about after all.

 

[saywat_the_15th]

 

Hmm, it would kinda make science a bit too OP again.

But lockboxes are a hassle too.

I guess it is a neccessary annoyance.

 

[davidchan]

 

It just adds unnecessary hassle compared to the working lockboxes.

I really do not see the reason why lockboxed stuff should be avaliable to regular scientists, that's what these systems are all about after all.

 

This isn't about non-antags getting access to guns

 

This is about antags who aren't traitors with emags getting weapons that they rightfully should have access to if they or someone did the work.

 

A Shadowling, a cortial borer, a vampire and a changling all have damn good reasons to want a Laser cannon or AEG, but unless they get lucky and catch 1 of 4 people off guard (or manage to cheese their way into the Cap's office and grab the ID before anyone snagged it on low pop) they have no means to do this.

 

If non-antags are trying to power game and get guns for any reason they shouldn't be. Job-ban them, it's what the system is there for. Under SoP they should be getting permission for them, but antags shouldn't be bound to that.

 

This is brilliant.

But i fear that if someone emags the lathe and unlocks the levels, RD will get lynched.

There should be some kinda indication if it has been emagged.

Maybe if you disassemble the lathe it would show sumthin indicating an emag.

 

 

The Idea being that the RnD server will still show the item as locked, so RD can bring point to the server logs and show that there was no authorization from him. Emagging would just override the lockout list. Making the protolathe have some kind of visual or UI indication that it was tampered with would be a decent idea though.

 

[Rumiluntti]

 

Lings can become a person with access to lockboxes if they feel they have a real need for the firepower.

Both lings and vampires have innate powers to make guns less needed.

Shadowlings can convert the people they need in additon to the innate power.

Borers are not antags.

 

The statement that all antags should have RnD way to access guns in ridiculous, even taters have to buy emag for the sweet sweet boxcracking.

 

All this would do is to allow science to become the shitfest it was before the boxes.

 

EDIT:

 

About the lockboxes being a hassle, people that should have those items can open the lockboxes.

You can use the lockbox itself for research levels, no need to open it.

 

[TullyBBurnalot]

 

A quick clarification, not sure if it's a feature, but I don't think Shadowlings can even use guns.

 

I was a Shadowling a few rounds ago and found myself in the possession of an Energy Gun (courtesy of the ambushed HoS) which I was entirely unable to fire. I was hatched, so that may have had something to do with it.

 

Not to mention, why the everliving goddamn fuck would you want to use guns as a Shadowling? You have access to a whole host of ridiculously powerful abilities that let you hold your own against anything short of a small army.

 

This idea that antags should "rightfully" have access to these weapons because someone "took the time" to research them is, in itself, moronic. Even with the "nerfs" to Science, RnD can still be effectively completed within half an hour in terms of items available (and no one fucking dare disagree with me, I have literally seen this happen already more than once since the patch came in). According to that argument, because someone did the bare minimum of their job, then any antagonist with access to RnD should now rightfully have access to:

 

 

1. Self-Recharging Laser Guns;

2. Laser Cannons;

X-Ray Guns;

10-round Instant Stun Revolvers;

Fucking SMGs with nigh-unlimited ammunition;

Motherfucking decloners

 

 

And gods know what else so long as you actually have the resources for it (and if the Ore Machine is upgraded and you have at least one active Miner, this is not an issue).

 

No.

 

Antagonists should not "rightfully" have access to these things just because they can. As much as I despise bringing up the Balance Argument, anyone with access to RnD would instantly and completely break the game in their favor by just stocking up on guns.

 

And I can guarantee you, that if in any way control of this is handed to anyone in Science (such as the Protolathe lock), you'd still see Research Directors walking around with half an Armory in their backpack because they have access to it.

 

TL;DR: Science has no reason to have access to guns, Antagonists should not have access to free guns just because someone in Science spent 20-30 minutes clicking buttons on a screen to increase Research Levels.

 

[johannhawk]

 

Lings can become a person with access to lockboxes if they feel they have a real need for the firepower.

Both lings and vampires have innate powers to make guns less needed.

Shadowlings can convert the people they need in additon to the innate power.

Borers are not antags.

 

The statement that all antags should have RnD way to access guns in ridiculous, even taters have to buy emag for the sweet sweet boxcracking.

 

All this would do is to allow science to become the shitfest it was before the boxes.

You can chalk this up to bad luck, but i felt the need to post this.

 

Only time i ever felt the need to get more firepower as an antag is when i was anything but a syndie traitor.

 

one of those moments was when the captain (my kill target) was piloting inside a mech, the whole shift, and i was a vamp with full power, and yet the captain somehow managed to RP a way to let his IC girlfriend vampire not get validhunted and tag along, that round resulted in my 7 minute video of me stockpiling guns and trying to take out that mech.

 

the other time, i was a traitorling (50% traitor, but no emag), i had to kill the detective, the HoS and steal the brain of the chef, even dreadweaver felt bad for me.

the entire sec staff and the chef were bunched up together watching a mime put up a good stage show...

 

well, i couldve used bombs that time, but the sheer amount of sec staff would mean i would have to use multiple bombs and disposable guns.

 

 

but hey, it never happened again, so im not complaining AT ALL.

 

DONT BASH ON ME!