The ultimate Kidan Overhaul - Making those bugs actually fun

[Travelling Merchant]

 

So recently a popular discussion on the forums and in the discord chat are Kidan. On paper, they seem cool. They have a rich lore with some cool brute resistance and scratchy punches. The downside is they bleed out from the slightest damage and they also cant wear glasses.

 

You would think lots of people play them, right? Wrong. It's more common to see Plasma People walking around than it is to see a Kidan. I know of two regular Kidan players. One of them is myself.

 

Their abilities don't fit their species well. The lack of any sort of glasses have been thoroughly discussed in the special Kidan glasses thread. The opinion is that for a big bad predator race who are excellent miners, its extremely weird that they cant do either mining or security. If you would like to read more about this part, check out that thread.

 

Kidan really need a redesign to make them actually fun for people to play. First I started with overhauling the stick-insect sprites that they have now for these big armoured beasties. I re-drew them from the ground up to give us these.

 

 

The eyes are also colour able for a small part of customisation. Support for the sprites so far have been positive, but sprites alone wont be enough. There is a reason that Kidan are never played.

 

Kidan need something fun to actually have people play them. We played around with a lot of ideas for them last night. Here are just a few that could be considered:

 

(Please note, that these are just completely separate ideas to be discussed.)

 

1: Kidan can't be slowed by movement impairing effects like certain shoes, being attacked, or pulling someone with the grab intent. This is a minor change that gives them some use.

 

2: Kidan can't be put into a soft crit condition. Soft critical condition is when you drift in and out of conciousness. Kidan, lore wise, are worker drones that throw themselves to their deaths to protect other Kidan nobles and their empresses. Being able to keep fighting in soft crit would suit them.

 

3: When taking damage, Kidan could release a pheromone as a genetic marker that other Kidan can smell when nearby, as smells are a massive part of their lore. One of their two naming systems normally includes a smell in their name. The pheromone does't say who got hurt or why, it just lets other Kidan know something happened there, should they stumble across it. For all they know, someone could have just been murdered, or perhaps just punched themselves.

 

4: Possibly my favourite idea that doesn't alter balance of the game in any way. Kidan have music being a large part of their culture. Kidan are also bugs, so what if they could play music by rubbing parts of their bodies together, a bit like crickets? It would work in the same way that guitars and other instruments do.

 

5: Kidan could be able to tell someone's intent using the worker drones low-physic powers. This could either pop up in the examine list, or as a square above someone's head.

 

6: Bring back their old armour, but make Kidan take twice as long to heal and possibly harder to fix in surgery in some way.

 

7: Kidan could let out a slightly louder scream than others, being heard slightly further away.

 

These are just a few of the ideas we came up with last night. Please discuss these. Lets make Kidan actually fun to play and not just a karma waste.

 

[Bradley208]

I cannot agree more with 4. I would love to annoy people to hell with my music make awesome Kidan music.

[ProperPants]

About #7. Kidan could have a scream on the level of a cicada, but it would have to be only when taking damage because accurately adding such a scream would be leagues beyond how annoying Vox screams are. Cicadas' songs can reach the sound level of a lawnmower, rock and roll concert, and even a chainsaw. Again, this CANNOT be a normal scream, as it would be too loud. It would have to be on the level of an explosion in sound - able to be heard from rooms away.

[TheDemonic]

I still like the idea of them having good passive armor but they should have penalty to armor from worn equipment so a kidan wearing full armor will be close too the other races in the armor. also it makes sense since the armor is made for the other races which wouldn't fit well and would be like wearing armor on top of armor.

[pazneria12]

for #3 it would be neat if they could leave messages that only other kidan could understand, like a tape recorder thats playing.

[Dinarzad]

 

TBH the biggest problem with Kidan, or at least what my PERSONAL issue with them is

#1: Sprites, which have been kinda fixed in this very thread

And the lack of glasses.

 

I know that they cannot wear glasses for balance reasons due to armor and the like, but... You REALLY need Goggles for 8/10 jobs on the station.

If you're in medical you kinda need a Health HUD. You can make it work without one, but doing triage becomes a fucking nightmare without it. Chemists don't strictly need one, and they're the only job who can go without their goggles, given you have a PDA Reagent scanner.

You can't really do any sort of Warden/Sec officer/HoS job without a Sec HUD

Did you wanna be a miner? Well GG NO RE, you can't wear Mesons, and a miner without having access to Mesons is just... a horrible, unfun expierence.

Engies can make do without Mesons, not really a job requirement for them, but does make life a lot easier.

 

Now look at that list over. What should be a balancing point for their racial trait, doesn't... really do that. Instead it just makes it difficult to impossible to do the job you wanted, or makes it frustrating to unfun levels.

So we need to figure out what needs to change, that would make admins feel comfortable giving them goggles back, what balance point could step into it's place and be a more reasonable nerf then the job disabling 'No goggles'

 

[Tauka Usanake]

 

If they were miners then I would have imagined them to have passive meson/mining scanner in them. Just want to throw that out there.

 

As for the ideas you posted

1. Might be a little too strong for them? Then again they are pretty useless in most jobs so not too bad an idea.

 

2. I'm thinking diona already have this maybe? If they don't then it makes sense for kidan to have it. Again, might be too strong but if they are harder to have surgery done on them, I'm thinking more saw use due to their shell, might work.

 

3. This has been considered for when they die. If done whenever they get hurt it might be a bit of an annoyance. Included with any of the other features would be too much. I got to say no to this.

 

4. I like it. Make special kidan instruments too though. I'm thinking woodwinds.

 

5. No. Unless you mean other kidan, then that's fine. Only the empress should be able to read other species minds and/or intents.

 

6. Double edged sword there. Even with extra surgery might be tough. If anything you can treat them with extra bone damage due to their exoskeleton. Not sure how it measures to normal brute but might be something.

 

7. No. Unless you mean distance. Then maybe, but I wouldn't. If they are made to be super tanky as it is then they don't need to scream extra far and get others attention.

 

I like the sprites. Might be worth putting them in so long as they don't need too many clothing resprites

 

[Toroic]

 

From a design perspective Kidan have a number of issues.

 

They currently have 20% brute resistance but bleed more, and can't use glasses.

 

The first thing to notice is that their one upside is arguably negated by one of their downsides before we're even talking about glasses.

 

There isn't much testing because they're expensive and weak, but are they actually any more resilient to brute damage at the end of the day due to bleeding?

 

Benefits and penalties should compliment each other, not be at odds.

 

IPC and diona are resilient against many kinds of damage, but easily killed with emp and plant b gone. Diona in particular are slow and unable to run away, so they are hard to kill and hit harder to compensate.

 

The bleeding should be removed and either the glasses should be removed or their brute resist should be doubled and them made unpushable.

 

One way to balance out Kidan's strength is to make them require 2 or 3x as much food as other species, and maybe even being carnivorous. No glasses really hurts their ability to mine or play sec.

 

Or, leave the glasses restriction and make them better at grappling than other species. We don't have a race better at grappling, and people /should/ be more careful in getting in melee with a Kidan.

 

Here's what I would suggest their benefits and costs be

-40% brute damage

-can't be pushed

-no glasses

-can upgrade grabs 2x as fast

-get hungry 3x as fast

-carnivorous

 

That is what I'd expect from a predator species. Still just as easy to kill with burn damage, they will need to eat regularly, but if you attempt to toolbox one expect to get your ass kicked.

 

[HereticChurch]

 

Kidan are actually herbivores, amusingly. This still makes them predatory, but only to Diona, their natural prey.

 

40% brute resistance would be fucking terrifying. Keep in mind, this is in addition to armor, so it could potentially lead to ridiculous protection. 20% is far more reasonable. I do like the idea of making them unpushable though. The other stuff I don't really have an opinion on. I did like the idea of them not going down in crit, but that's likely overpowered.

 

[GelatinousGlob]

 

Kidan definitely need glasses or passive eye effects that remove the need for them. They can't mine for shit without mesons, if they don't get glasses they need some sort of meson mining sense, perhaps giving them racial mining scanners due to their antenna that show the ores through the rock. Security is also shit without huds or glasses, portable flashers completely fuck them over in their own department. Even if you walk past the flashers, other people won't and will trigger them blinding you anyways.

 

The brute resistance itself is already countered by the bleeding. If you don't have styptic patches with you and you start bleeding, even if from a single hit, you need to beeline for medical or you will start passing out and die. Never has the brute resistance helped me because if I take enough damage for it to have mattered, im bleeding like a stuck pig and passing out. Its a stupid debuff anyways because ive never seen a bug bleed to death or even bleed at all.

 

Kidan should be tanky characters but that is completely nullified when you are passed out and bleeding.

 

You could also give them normal punches, bugs don't have talons.

 

Their debuff should if anything involve decreased poison resistance.

 

Also, why are they vegetarians? Ants don't eat only plants. Nothing worse than going to the kitchen only to find all the food is burgers and steaks which make you throw up. They can't even eat jerky from vending machines.

 

Give them either glasses or passive mining meson sense. (possibly a temporary spell-activated meson sense?)

 

Reduce bleeding effects, either to normal levels or possibly reduced bleeding, in its place give them decreased toxin resistance.

 

Remove scratching punch, thats just silly.

 

Let them eat meat.

 

Make the autoinjector chem get them high, like the lore says. The caffeine at least was fixed awhile back I believe, I was almost killed when some security guy forcefed me shit tons of coffee.

 

 

 

I really wanted to like Kidan, but ive regretted the purchase since day one even though I try to play them regularly. Their debuffs are stupid and crippling and their buffs aren't useful at all.

 

[ProperPants]

 

40% brute resistance would be fucking terrifying. Keep in mind, this is in addition to armor, so it could potentially lead to ridiculous protection.

I don't know exact numbers, but perhaps to offset the extra armor, Kidan could also get only half (or 1/4th or whatever fraction) of the protection value of any armored clothing.

 

inb4 snowflek coding

 

[Toroic]

 

Kidan are actually herbivores, amusingly. This still makes them predatory, but only to Diona, their natural prey.

 

40% brute resistance would be fucking terrifying. Keep in mind, this is in addition to armor, so it could potentially lead to ridiculous protection. 20% is far more reasonable. I do like the idea of making them unpushable though. The other stuff I don't really have an opinion on. I did like the idea of them not going down in crit, but that's likely overpowered.

 

Their current brute resistance is 20%, and since not even Kidan players think it helps, it really does not.

 

The jobs that provide armor are not jobs that Kidan are any good at, like security, mining, engineering.

 

They preyed on Diona thousands of years ago before Diona left the planet and mass starvations and mutation occured leading to the psychic emperesses.

 

Have you tried to beat a diona to death? It's a pain in the ass because while they don't have resistance, they immediately and continuously heal the damage and don't have broken bones, bleeding or paincrit. I've been attacked in the face with a drill and just had some brain damage.

 

Unless Kidan outnumbered Diona by a massive margin or only attacked at night, they would get destroyed. As soon as they got hit they'd start bleeding out and any Diona not completely killed would simply get back up and go back to fighting.

 

There's a reason 50% of the server is taj or vulp, and it's not just because we have furries. It's that they have no downsides, darkvision, better melee, and are basically superior to humans in every way.

 

Kidan bleed too much and suck at about half the station jobs because they can't use essential equipment without an implant.

 

[Tauka Usanake]

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that gestalt diona were not something on the kidan planet. They evolved into such and I would imagine were their nymph version while planet side. Now for something to be a food source there has to be enough of it to feed. Plants tend to be great in number and I'm betting diona were no exception as they were actively hunted and adapted constantly before finally leaving the planet.

 

Just want to throw that out there. Pre-evolution diona were kidan's bitches

 

[Travelling Merchant]

 

Here are some screenshots of the new Kidan in game:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Eyes can be coloured.

 

[Travelling Merchant]

Pull request has been made for the sprites: https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/3904

[Travelling Merchant]

 

Just a fun sprite thats not being added. Stag Kidan.

 

 

[TheDemonic]

 

Just a fun sprite thats not being added. Stag Kidan.

 

Why not make it smaller then it might be a good horn choice, because I would use that.

 

[Voidlord44]

 

Here's what I would suggest their benefits and costs be

-40% brute damage

-can't be pushed

-no glasses

-can upgrade grabs 2x as fast

-get hungry 3x as fast

-carnivorous

 

 

 

This +1

 

[Travelling Merchant]

 

Here's what I would suggest their benefits and costs be

-40% brute damage

-can't be pushed

-no glasses

-can upgrade grabs 2x as fast

-get hungry 3x as fast

-carnivorous

 

 

 

This +1

 

Yep, this seems like a good bet. Make them omnivores rather than carnivorous though as their main prey are still plants.

 

[Spacemanspark]

Or make them herbivores.

[ProperPants]

 

Or make them herbivores.

 

"Exssssscuzzzze me, cccchef. I'm actually a vvvvvegan. No cheesszzze in my meal, thanksszszzs.

 

[Toroic]

 

Here's what I would suggest their benefits and costs be

-40% brute damage

-can't be pushed

-no glasses

-can upgrade grabs 2x as fast

-get hungry 3x as fast

-carnivorous

 

 

 

This +1

 

Yep, this seems like a good bet. Make them omnivores rather than carnivorous though as their main prey are still plants.

 

I'm glad you like the suggestion!

 

I find the idea of a kidan robusting someone for getting between them and their diona roast.

 

It was meant to have a chance against a diona, who I think most people generally are hesitant to get into a fight with. Kidan would if they are the best grapplers and can soak some punches.

 

[Dinarzad]

 

The problem with it though, is they still would have no glasses.

Which is not really a good balancing point, because it balances very little with the race itself and just becomes a job limitation feature on the race as a whole?

Did you wanna be Sec? Lol u silly Kidan u cant even sechud

Did you wanna mine? Llllllllllllllllllllllel no mesons 4 u

 

You still can't PLAY Kidan because they have no glasses, which means you're locked out of sec and mining and Medical/Engineering becomes a massive pain in the ass.

 

[Travelling Merchant]

Well, the new Kidan Sprites just got added. Just need the balancing done.

[Toroic]

 

The problem with it though, is they still would have no glasses.

Which is not really a good balancing point, because it balances very little with the race itself and just becomes a job limitation feature on the race as a whole?

Did you wanna be Sec? Lol u silly Kidan u cant even sechud

Did you wanna mine? Llllllllllllllllllllllel no mesons 4 u

 

You still can't PLAY Kidan because they have no glasses, which means you're locked out of sec and mining and Medical/Engineering becomes a massive pain in the ass.

 

You can still play Kidan as sec if you get an appropiate implant and use a welding helmet.

 

You can play Kidan as medical because you need to smack them with a scanner anyway. As a surgeon you don't need a medhud.

 

Mining sucks but you don't need eyewear for engineering, since your job is to sent up the engine and then go screw around for the rest of the round.