New Traitor Item/Request for Science nerf ideas

[Da Dman234]

 

Chem Synthesizer

An item that spawns either a small handheld or portable dispenser that is able to mix and dispense pills in a limited fashion (Think the bar on chem dispensers, only it doesn't regenerate). The idea is that this should be a cheap alternative to people who don't have access to chem machines and want to make their own chems.

 

Right, so the main point of this item is to help take away some of the power of the science department without directly nerfing it. Admittedly this is a pretty minor fix for the much needed nerfing that science needs,(and more is certainly needed), but hear me out. I'd much rather things like this come about or be removed than science become based on a boring RNG machine that has potential to maim and disable you if you press the wrong button at its' worst, and at its' best requires you to mindlessly press a button repeatedly.

 

To make this perfectly clear, I am by no means defending the power of science in its' current state. Simply asking you hear out/help brainstorm new ideas for balancing that don't involve the Experimentor

 

Feel free to discuss other Science related suggestions below

 

[necaladun]

 

One problem with science's power is the ability to access everything: R&D, Outpost, Toxins, Chem Lab, Xenobio.

 

I think breaking scientist back up into multiple jobs would severely restrict and nerf the power of any individual scientist without nerfing the department as a whole.

 

Of course, RD traitors will still be very powerful, but you won't have to worry about 1 individual scientist stocking up on toxins bombs, chemsprays and healing chems, printing out a bunch of things, then going over to the outpost.

 

[ProperPants]

 

I think breaking scientist back up into multiple jobs would severely restrict and nerf the power of any individual scientist without nerfing the department as a whole.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

I've always wondered why scientist has so many alt titles when they mean absolutely nothing. I think everyone should have access to the EXPERIMENTOR and their respective area, and that normal "Scientists" should have R&D access. I also wish the outpost would be totally removed, since it's still useless.

 

[saywat_the_15th]

 

I also wish the outpost would be totally removed, since it's still useless.

 

Yeah, it is just a damn vampiremainthumanmonkeyfactoryHQ without a real reason to exist other than to serve as antag hideout.

 

[necaladun]

 

I agree heavily there, the outpost atm really only serves to function as a base for antags. The same could be said for the engi outpost, but I see the sci outpost used a lot more for it, and it is vastly more useful with the various things there like the sleeper.

 

It'd be great for sci to have some off-site testing facility for the more dangerous things for sure, but being on another Z level entirely means it's far too private, hidden, and hard to access for others, making it perfect for antags, which was not the intent. The intent was for xenoarch, which if it no longer exists, means it has no purpose except for antags.

 

[alexpkeaton]

 

Why not move toxins and the test range to the sci outpost? It makes zero sense how testing unstable explosives is undertaken where it can destroy other components of science and the station. That would also give a decent reason for the outpost to be legitimately utilized.

 

Plus there won't be any more confusion when you hear an explosion aboard the station and have to figure out whether it was a test or not.

 

Edited March 21, 2016 by Guest

[sdtwbaj]

 

I agree heavily there, the outpost atm really only serves to function as a base for antags. The same could be said for the engi outpost, but I see the sci outpost used a lot more for it, and it is vastly more useful with the various things there like the sleeper.

 

It'd be great for sci to have some off-site testing facility for the more dangerous things for sure, but being on another Z level entirely means it's far too private, hidden, and hard to access for others, making it perfect for antags, which was not the intent. The intent was for xenoarch, which if it no longer exists, means it has no purpose except for antags.

Maybe throw toxins and xenobio into it, and use the left over space as a new cargo, and just rearrange science as a whole. If I could map I would make that.

 

[ProperPants]

 

I agree heavily there, the outpost atm really only serves to function as a base for antags. The same could be said for the engi outpost, but I see the sci outpost used a lot more for it, and it is vastly more useful with the various things there like the sleeper.

 

It'd be great for sci to have some off-site testing facility for the more dangerous things for sure, but being on another Z level entirely means it's far too private, hidden, and hard to access for others, making it perfect for antags, which was not the intent. The intent was for xenoarch, which if it no longer exists, means it has no purpose except for antags.

Maybe throw toxins and xenobio into it, and use the left over space as a new cargo, and just rearrange science as a whole. If I could map I would make that.

 

You two have sparked something in me. I suggested this two months ago. Is it finally coming back with new support?

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

I think breaking scientist back up into multiple jobs would severely restrict and nerf the power of any individual scientist without nerfing the department as a whole.

This, this so much.

 

[alexpkeaton]

I think breaking scientist back up into multiple jobs would severely restrict and nerf the power of any individual scientist without nerfing the department as a whole.

This, this so much.

[saywat_the_15th]

I think breaking scientist back up into multiple jobs would severely restrict and nerf the power of any individual scientist without nerfing the department as a whole.

This, this so much.

[Da Dman234]

 

I think breaking scientist back up into multiple jobs would severely restrict and nerf the power of any individual scientist without nerfing the department as a whole.

This, this so much.

Right, out of all I've heard from everyone in and out of this thread this seems to be the consensus as to what the best option is. My idea for this is to break science up into 3 different sub-departments that are each manned by two (insert new job title here) "scientists".

 

Sub-Department #1 - Biology

Basically the new Xenobiologists. Since Xenobio is usually only manned by one person doing work and isn't that robust an option for antags I'm thinking maybe Xenobotany makes a comeback for this role, since that provides additional things to work on and isn't terribly strong itself. A locker with a few bottles of Plasma and Radium would be provided. They would only have access to these two stations, and possibly the outpost for which to test slime core grenades. (More on outpost changes further down) You could also quite honestly change this back into a single role, as it was before, but I'm not quite sure what the reasoning was for removing the job in the first place, or if has been rectified.

 

Sub-Department #2 - Explosives Research

Simplest one to explain. They test bombs. Give them Toxins and Chem Lab access, as well as outpost access. Possibly make the area more secure/easily lockdown-able by the AI and such, or move the lab itself into plain view.

 

Sub-Department #3 - Technology

Now, this is probably the most interesting change I have in mind. The idea is to merge robotics and the current RnD lab, to form a large center where most research can be conducted. This will probably end up the most powerful department, but that is offset by the fact that it's near the front and easily under the most scrutiny from the prying eyes of the public. It allows for whoever is working RnD to have something to do after research/upgrades are complete, stops fights over resources, and centralizes arguably the strongest parts of science all in the front near the hallway. Members of this role would have access to Robotics, RnD, and the Experimentor. An alternative to this is the merge RnD with a role I've heard mentioned a few times, which is one dedicated to augmentations, and leave Robotics as a standalone.

 

Research Station Changes

Redo it. The entire point of it was for Xenoarc and it's completely unneeded in its' current form. Either remove it or convert it into a place to test bombs under certain pressures or atmosphere. An actual testing range with atmosphere and test subjects (where you're not in danger of damaging the main station) is a much needed addition to chemical research. If antag use isn't an intended function of the station then remove both the dorms and maint/electrical portions. Make it a barebones station for exclusively testing.

 

Feel free to critique/change anything you take issue with, this is just a rough idea on my part.

 

[SkyPing]

 

Amazing. If there was one thing I'd like to switch up, I'd think that it would be best to keep Xenobotany dead, or at the very least merge the existing botanists with the science department. The sole reason for it is under the notion that regular botany would be DESERTED if Xenobotany came back as a stand-a-lone job, which would doom the chef.

 

I can't speak for the rest of the Xenobotanists at all, but I myself can say that it's not too much trouble to supply the chef with the food they want at the same time as experimenting with plants.

 

Of course, a separate testing chamber would be nice; it would give me and Gloria a place to test out our exploding LSD wheat that ISN'T the primary hallway (We accidentally sent a roaming civilian into crit about a month ago).

 

But yeah, all of the ideas that everyone suggested in here are absolutely amazing, and I'd love to see them implemented. I can't think of any downsides at the current moment.

 

[Urbanliner]

If the scientist doing research is going to be unable to access the Chemical lab, there should be a Sulphuric Acid dispenser somewhere accessible by the researchers, at least on the lowpop rounds where there are no sci-chemists or med-chemists.

[ProperPants]

 

Sub-Department #3 - Technology

Now, this is probably the most interesting change I have in mind. The idea is to merge robotics and the current RnD lab, to form a large center where most research can be conducted. This will probably end up the most powerful department, but that is offset by the fact that it's near the front and easily under the most scrutiny from the prying eyes of the public. It allows for whoever is working RnD to have something to do after research/upgrades are complete, stops fights over resources, and centralizes arguably the strongest parts of science all in the front near the hallway. Members of this role would have access to Robotics, RnD, and the Experimentor. An alternative to this is the merge RnD with a role I've heard mentioned a few times, which is one dedicated to augmentations, and leave Robotics as a standalone.

I love love love this idea, but I forsee it getting some flak. The room should be as wide as Robotics and R&D (or maybe 75% as wide as both rooms combined), and have an enormous window along the north side so people can see in. It should keep the safety shutters though. Additionally, the entrance to science would have to be moved - I propose scrapping that tiny maint room between the mech bay and morgue, then after combining R&D and Robotics, shifting the mega room to fill that space, and finally putting the entrance on the far right. Maybe there could even be a window there as well, or the entrance to the Technology room. Then the north and south sides could be windows for civilians and scientists to view happenings.

 

My favorite aspect, by far, is this

stops fights over resources

 

[Da Dman234]

 

If the scientist doing research is going to be unable to access the Chemical lab, there should be a Sulphuric Acid dispenser somewhere accessible by the researchers, at least on the lowpop rounds where there are no sci-chemists or med-chemists.

 

Way back when, when there wasn't a chem section to science and Paradise had many less players RnD operated without easy access to Sulf Acid more than fine. Not to mention now with double the chem machines it'd be much easier to get some. If there isn't an RD with access or Chemists willing to take requests just ask the AI to open up. It's a fairly minor problem IMO, sort of a two steps forward one back sort of deal.

 

[alexpkeaton]

 

It is worthy of note that resurrecting xenoarch is currently a side project of some coders. I don't know which ones, and I'd pull up the thread myself but my internet connection is currently through a potato. 0.34Mbps.

 

So before any grand ideas are hatched regarding the research station, keep in mind that there are likely as many plans to rearrange the sci outpost by the xenoarch phoenix team.

 

On the flipside, if and when xenoarch is readded, that would be an ideal time to merge any other changes to the sci outpost with it. Maybe someone who knows more about the xenoarch project can speak to it or suggest someone who can?

 

[Kyet]

 

I endorse the ideas of:

 

1) Toxins Job Split

Toxins Researcher should be a separate job from scientist.

So many reasons:

 

• Toxin bombs are one of the most destructive craftable items on the station, and their legitimate uses almost non-existent. To allow the entire sci department access to this area doesn't make much sense.

• One of the biggest issues we have with griefers (when we get them) is toxin bombs. Having toxins access be tied to a special toxins job (with a higher days played requirement) makes griefing slightly harder.

While it is true that griefing/self-antagging can be reversed, the damage caused by toxin bombs is amongst the hardest to reverse. Dead people can be rejuv'ed, etc, but AFAIK there is no way to quickly fix problems caused by toxin bombs. For that reason, they should not be so easy to access.

 

 

I suggest splitting off Toxins first (its the most dangerous/explosive sub-department), and seeing how that goes, before splitting other jobs off from Scientist.

 

2) Experimentor

Delete the Experimentor and replace it with something else. Anything else. Even an empty room would be better than the Experimentor we have now. The Experimentor is terrible in every way.

It isn't helpful, it isn't fun, all it does is wreck things based on RNG.

Its EMP affects other areas (psych, server room). Its monsters go on rampages that can reach as far as the bar (I saw this happenen, yesterday). It isn't fun to use. It is a total disaster zone. It isn't fixable due to terrible underlying RNG-based mechanics. These same RNG-based mechanics make balancing it impossible.

 

3) Sci Outpost

Science does need an off-site place to test truly, horrifically dangerous things. There's no reason for it to be a full-fledged outpost, however. The science outpost is massively, massively bigger and more complicated than it needs to be. Reduce it to a mere testing area for epicly dangerous things.

 

4) Require cargo crate items to max R&D

Maxing R&D should require ordering crates from cargo which provide R&D items they can deconstruct. This would push science to interact with other departments, provide a way of limiting R&D speed, give cargo something to do, and provide a way to complete R&D without using the loathsome EXPERIMENTOR. All at the same time.

 

 

I'm opposed to the ideas of:

 

1) Merging Robotics and R&D into a single sub-department/job

 

The fact that robotics can't simply print mech components from the protolathe (as they lack the access) is one of the major checks on the power of robotics. Merging the department eliminates this safeguard. R&D and robotics already produce very powerful stuff by themselves. Merging them isn't a good idea. No, I don't think that having them visible from the corridor is going to make a difference. It is VERY easy to simply make stuff when nobody is walking past.

 

 

2) Making botany in any way part of science

 

Botany is fine where it is. If you move it to science, you create huge issues for the chef, and you encourage botanists to screw around growing drugs even more than they already do.

 

 

3) Moving Toxins, Xenobio, or any other sub-department to the outpost

 

This just makes them harder for anyone else to access, giving the people working there more control over their environment. This is a buff, not a nerf.

 

[ProperPants]

 

I'm opposed to the ideas of:

 

1) Merging Robotics and R&D into a single sub-department/job

 

The fact that robotics can't simply print mech components from the protolathe (as they lack the access) is one of the major checks on the power of robotics. Merging the department eliminates this safeguard. R&D and robotics already produce very powerful stuff by themselves. Merging them isn't a good idea. No, I don't think that having them visible from the corridor is going to make a difference. It is VERY easy to simply make stuff when nobody is walking past.

Merging or not merging makes little difference.

• R&D will always print a mech component when robotics asks for it, so robotics already almost has access to those.

Robotics can easily make a protolathe using the circuit board in tech storage and the parts in R&D that are sitting on the desk, allowing them to make mech parts.

R&D can't produce uber powerful stuff by itself - anything actually dangerous is in a lockbox. Implants are the only freely powerful object R&D can make, and they should not be in the protolathe (but they should be in the exosuit fabricator).

Robotics can make powerful mechs, yes, but they do not go around shooting the shit out of everyone because they don't want to be banned. Additionally, mechs are easily defeated by an ion rifle and can be locked by the Research Director from his office (and maybe the AI? Not sure on this).

 

It always irks me when people talk about "the power of science" because this power only comes into play if you're an antagonist. No normal player is going to abuse the power of science because they don't want to be banned. If somebody does decide to self-antag enough to disrupt the round, they get banned and only one round was slightly less fun than the coming rounds without that player.

 

[Doukan]

 

I'm all for these proposed changes, science has been a bit stale for me for a while a good shake up would be great.

As for the shape of the "mega-room", a couple of Bay fork servers I've seen had a sort of mini-lobby in the middle that people could walk into, a little 3x3 (or was it 3x5?) space sort of like the one medbay has but the other sort of rectangle, something like that could help with visibility/access instead of having a weirdo side entrance.

 

It always irks me when people talk about "the power of science" because this power only comes into play if you're an antagonist. No normal player is going to abuse the power of science because they don't want to be banned. If somebody does decide to self-antag enough to disrupt the round, they get banned and only one round was slightly less fun than the coming rounds without that player.

 

Just to be nitpicky though, the OPness science gets labelled with is most centred on certain play styles, they're not that destructive per se but they're not exactly balanced either.

 

You know who I mean, the RDs with an armoury in their backpacks, the researchers carrying out a couple of r-syringe guns packed with death chems "just in case", the people who somehow always end up with bag + belt of holding, full set of tools + combat gloves + hardsuit +... etc, they "get in the way".

 

There's nothing wrong with being prepared but what seems to annoy people and sometimes even the admins, is that it's just a bit too easy for scientists to get that powerful.