Change 'Grand Theft'

[GelatinousGlob]

I think its pretty dumb that possession of a hand teleporter or reactive teleport armor or anything else fun you might find in disposals gives you an automatic death/perma sentence. It gives no bearing on how it was obtained or whether or not it was actually stolen or merely obtained via trash disposals. I got a perma sentence for wearing reactive teleport armor I grabbed off the ground and all they had to do was ask for it and I would of gave it to them. Instead they just started shooting me, almost got me killed (saved by a bluespace crystal in my pocket) by getting me teleported behind gravity generator into space. Then when I finally was cuffed, I was given a perma sentence. These are things people hold on to just for convenience or fun, grand theft should atleast require you actually steal the item, not just possess an item.

[Keroman]

 

I was the Magistrate that gave you the sentence. Here is the description of Grand Theft for reference:

To steal items of high value or sensitive nature - Syndicate agents frequently attempt to steal cutting-edge technology, intelligence or research samples, including: Hand Teleporter, the Captain/HoS's Antique Laser, Captain or HoP's ID cards, or Mechs.

 

Because certain items are known to be high-priority targets for the Syndicate to steal taking possession of them when you should NOT have possession of them automatically makes you suspect as a Syndicate. It is entirely possible to get these items without leaving any evidence or being seen by anyone and therefore there is no way for security to know whether you picked it up off the ground or actually broke into a secure area and stole it. If you should come into possession of one of these items you, as a crew member and as a player, should know that it's important - there is nothing else like it on the station, it's known to come from a secure area - and therefore you should, assuming you're not in immediate danger, take it to the appropriate person and turn it in.

 

Once, as Mechanic, I was out exploring and found one of the abandoned teleporters, fixed it up, and used it to get back to the station. In an attempt to get back to the abandoned teleporter where my spacepod was parked I grabbed a beacon and the hand teleporter. After a few failed attempts I figured it wasn't going to work and so I sought out the Captain and handed over the hand teleporter. I knew there was a chance I would be brigged for it, but while the Captain was mildly surprised I was never brigged because I knew it was an item I shouldn't have had and so I turned it in. I didn't run around with it for long as I only needed it for one specific thing and I was done with it within minutes.

 

One other thing I'd like to point out is that taking the high-value items (i.e. items that are regularly chosen as Syndicate theft objectives) is actually against the Server Rules (note section 7.6.) If you're picking them up to turn them in I imagine you'll get some leeway if an Admin questions you on it. If you put said item on (i.e. the Reactive Teleport Armor) and run around while security chases you down then, in my view, you're certainly pushing it.

 

A final, personal note here. I find that many people who say, "I would have done X if they had just asked me," are rarely telling the truth but are simply trying to justify their actions and shift the blame onto the officers. You committed a Capital crime - the worst category of crime in Space law - and you're surprised that Security came after you guns blazing? Well, I hope it was a learning experience.

 

[GelatinousGlob]

 

So its my fault that a borg immediately opened fire on me as soon as I was seen and it teleported me away? I certainly wasn't hiding it, I was wearing it, and didn't get 10 steps down the hall before it happened.

 

I still completely disagree with you, breaking in to someones office or locker or secure area to steal blueprints or captains gun or whatever is completely different than grabbing shit out of the trash. The way you are viewing the law, even trying to turn it into security would mean I could be immediately put to death just because I had touched it. If an engineer was using the blueprints, even if the CE gave it to them, under your interpretation you could immediately be put to death. Its stupid and it should be changed. Intent is everything.

 

Note how both the rules and space law say "stealing" which requires intent. Possession is not theft unless you are trying to hide it.

 

[Jguytriple5]

 

I don't think the law needs a change, but i agree with both of you kind of. let me explain.

 

GelatinousGlob is right because he just picked it up from the ground and didn't actually steal it. Thus it is not really grand theft, but still posession of a restricted item.

 

And i agree with Keroman because as security you cannot suddenly know if a person stole something or if they picked it up from the ground. As security you should protect the station, and in the situation described i would open taser fire at you too. But i would ask how you got it, then you could've explained it and maybe one or two wtinesses can be found that saw you just pick it up.

 

So all with all, you're both right. But also both wrong. And the law is fine.

 

[Keroman]

 

There's certainly been a misunderstanding here and I apologize for not making myself clear.

 

No member of security in their right mind should be arresting you for turning in an item you found, regardless of what it is. If a security officer does arrest you for it you can likely ahelp it and get released. I never meant to imply that you could get brigged for turning in contraband or high-value items. That being said you obviously didn't attempt to turn in the Reactive Teleport Armor, opting to wear it instead, so this situation doesn't even apply to your complaint.

 

Second, regarding things like station blueprints, if the CE hands them out he should make Command aware that he has given out the station blueprints and who he has authorized to use them. He could even go a step farther and give them a piece of paper with his signature and stamp which the person can show as proof that he's authorized to have it. Worst case scenario an officer who sees the person handling the blueprints arrests them and the CE then has to clear things up with the HoS. It's much better for the CE to be proactive about these things but we all drop the ball sometimes.

 

Any time a high-value item is approved for use by someone who doesn't normally have access to it the appropriate people should be made aware: ideally the person's department head, the command staff who usually has access to the item, and the HoS who can sort things out if an officer tries to arrest the person with the high-value item.

 

Picking something up off the ground certainly isn't a crime, but failure to turn it in in a timely fashion certainly could be interpreted as such, and I would argue that putting it on and running around wearing it absolutely is. You made no effort to turn it in, you were not granted permission to use it.

 

It's my belief that the reason for the rule regarding self-antag is that an antagonist who is tasked with stealing an item can reasonably expect it to be in one of several places. Let's say someone had to steal the Reactive Teleport Armor. They go up to the R&D window to see if the RD is there. He is but he's not wearing the armor so where's the next most logical place for it to be? The RD's locker! He breaks into the RD's office, emags the locker and lo and behold the armor is missing. At that point there's a lot of places it could be. Some folks might check the bridge, Captain's office, etc., or try to get in touch with other traitors to see if they know where it's at. Beyond that they have very little recourse for finding their target.

 

It's only fair that the person tasked with getting the armor have a sporting chance at finding it where it's supposed to be, either in the RD's locker or on the RD's person.

 

These items aren't toys for any random crewmember to pick up and mess about with. They're objectives, they're unique, and it's expected that they're kept safe. If you're not an antag and you come into possession of a high-value item you should do your due diligence and get it to someone who can keep it safe (again, assuming you're not in immediate danger.)

 

[Bigtimetripod]

 

Rule 7.17 States the following:

 

Petty theft is not considered self-antagging but stealing the high-value items without a reason will be considered as such.

 

In this case yes, you did not steal it, you found it. Still definition of high-value/high-risk items is as follows:

 

These are items that are often desired by traitors for themselves or as an objective for the Syndicate. Thieves who get caught with stealing one of these items are often charged with Grand Theft given sufficient evidence.

 

To a person who is observing and doesn't know how you obtained the item, it will seem grand theft. Real life example is that ye walk into a police station with gun in yer holdster and visible. Following that should happen is that, officers will start to unholdster their guns cause you are a visible threat and you can end persons life. You will be asked to conceal your firearm. (Work as a officer) (RD armor will not end lives(unless you space yer self), but can get you into places you really aren't allowed in)

 

TL:DR

 

If no evidence you stole it, you should be let go and the item taken away from you. Its one of a kind and rare item that can be obtained by few means and cannot be handed out to everyone.

 

On the borrowing topic. Captain can write out letters saying ye are allowed to have it! (Chameleon stamp has it uses!(bonus point of ye forge the signature))

 

[Coldflame]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_by_finding

 

Regardless of where you got it, if you don't immediately return it or hand it to sec, you've stolen it.

 

[Keroman]

 

Coldflame definitely summed up my point in a much neater fashion.

 

If you pick up a stun baton, make no effort to turn it in, and run around with it in your hand you can't be surprised when Security arrests you for Possession of a Restricted Weapon.

 

Likewise if you pick up a high-value item, make no effort to turn it in, and run around wearing it or holding it in your hand you can't be surprised when security arrests you for Grand Theft.

 

In real life you wouldn't be like, "Oh, someone left their keys in this car? It's mine now lol." You would leave it be or report it to the proper authorities.

 

[GelatinousGlob]

 

Im not talking about hiding items from security. Im talking about valid hunters giving you a perma sentence no matter how it was obtained, whether you have announced you had it and your intent to turn it in, whether you are carrying it into security itself 5 seconds after obtaining it. It doesn't matter because some security guy with a hardon can and will arrest and give you a perma sentence.

 

If you give no leeway in the wording of space law, it will always be used to inflict maximum abuse upon players whether it is deserved or not.

 

You may be thinking reasonably, but most players don't, they are going to be nazis about it and fuck over everyone they can. There are no provisions for turning in items, no provisions for finding items where they shouldn't be, there is no operating procedure that covers anything at all because you guys seem to assume the station is some perfectly static state where shit doesnt get all blown to hell and that everyone is completely reasonable and understanding.

 

[Keroman]

 

Once again I feel inclined to point out that if someone attempts to arrest you while you are in the act of turning a high-value item in you should ahelp it and an Admin will set the record straight with security.

 

The wording of the law doesn't seem to allow for much leeway but in practice any rational player should understand the spirit and intent of the law.

 

What you are trying to argue - that someone could be arrested for bringing a found high-value item to security - does not apply to the situation last night because you did not make an attempt to turn the item in question in. I never heard you say anything about finding the Reactive Teleporter Armor over the radio. Had you done so you likely would have been asked to turn it in. If you didn't want to draw the attention of antags you also could have PDA'd the RD, the AI, or the HoS to make them aware of what you found and your intent to turn it in.

 

As far as I was made aware you did none of those things. You did, however, put the armor on, which in my view turned it from a simple lost and found case into an actual criminal act.

 

I will state this as often as is needed for it to be understood: high-value items are not toys for the crew to use however they see fit, regardless of how they come to be in your possession. Taking and keeping them as a non-antag is against the server rules.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

Anyone that knows me knows that I'm not the biggest fan of security----that said, security did absolutely nothing wrong, and you caused 99% of the trouble for yourself.

 

As someone who witnessed the majority of this round, I feel you're leaving out a few important details and skewing things strongly in your favor.

 

First off, there were already known traitors on station---one of them was caught by security relatively early on. Secondly, you decided to shut down all of cargo, by yourself, and seal it off from the station. On top of this, you trespassed into science and grabbed the reactive teleport armor that was (IIRC) still within the RD's office.

 

You did the lattermost action while there were spiders still about who had wrecked quite a bit of havoc (which is the reason the RD's office was even accessible) during code red.

 

The AI spotted you and reported it to security that you had grabbed the armor and immediately put it on---multiple people were dispatched because of this; the borg gave chase and tracked you down to the bar where it proceeded to disable you. The borg then started to take you to security, but you managed to break free (someone bumped into the borg, I believe). You responded with, not co-operation, but inciting a full scale manhunt for the next 10-15 minutes, made all the more difficult because you turned on the teleporter armor, ensuring any shots from taser/disablers (or even batons) would teleport you away.

 

Many teleports later you wound up in a grill, where you intentionally kept hitting a grill to shock yourself---worth pointing out that the borg made its first priority to get you healed up after you were arrested and downed from these actions.

 

After multiple officers, the borg, and the AI managed to finally bring you in and take you to the brig, you started shouting about how security and the borg were breaking space law and threatened to "decomission" the borg.

 

While in the cell the magistrate accidentally created a way to let you out of the cell---you immediately grabbed your backpack and grabbed the RCD from it then made a bee-line straight for the brig exit where you created a wall with the RCD before attempting to create another one and RCD the brig doors down.

 

For the rest of the shift you complained about how you couldn't be permabrigged over your actions. When the shuttle arrived and you were taken to the shuttle brig you promptly committed suicide.

 

Also, I have a problem with this statement here:

 

by getting me teleported behind gravity generator into space.

 

This was a result of YOUR actions, not theirs. Lethal force was never utilized against you; it was the result of your stealing the reactive teleport armor and turning it on. Furthermore, it was YOUR action that placed you in space. The teleport armor is literally incapable of placing you on a tile that is space---it could place you in a wall next to space, but you'd still have to move away from that wall onto the space tile for you to end up spaced.

 

 

If you act like an antag, and do antaggy things, expect to get treated like an antag.

 

And you most definitely acted like an antag would.

 

[GelatinousGlob]

 

Im not talking only about my exact scenario, I did run, especially after the borg started shooting disablers (I kind of think they were having fun teleporting me around with them). I didn't have a radio to hear anything anyways. But im mainly talking about the law in general, it can be severely abused by security.

 

What I did that round has no bearing whatsoever on my point. My point is that it is a severe flaw in space law that can be abused, and it should have provisions or even just a note on how exceptions should exist. Currently there is no exceptions or excuses. The way it is worded they could lop off anyones head the second anyone even touches one of those items, which is quite simply, stupid. Especially considering how far the server has moved away from more hrp game style and rules.

 

You shouldn't have crazy hrp style space law and regulations on a server where hrp playstyle is a pipe dream at best. People are running around with xray guns and large bombs and death chems and just in general being stupid and dangerous, that doesn't give cause for instant death sentence unless they are using them in a way that warrants it. Simply possessing a literally harmless item shoulldn't be cause for instant perma or execution without any intent to use them in terrible ways. I don't see doctors with syringe gun of sleep chems being given instant perma status, nor scientists with guns or engineers with cans of plasma or blueprints, or atmos techs dragging mysterious air canisters.

 

[Keroman]

 

I've already stated this twice, I'm not sure how much more clear I can be:

- If you find a high value item and report it to the proper authority and...

- are in the process of taking said item to the brig to turn it in and...

- someone arrests you and tries to charge you as EoC...

 

AHELP ABOUT IT AND AN ADMIN WILL SLAP THEM DOWN.

 

Removing people from the round without legitimate cause is a huge no-no and security players are scrutinized to a heavy degree to ensure they do not do so.

 

This loophole you seem to think exists does not, in actuality, exist.

 

[GelatinousGlob]

 

'ahelp it' is a terrible way to solve a pure IC problem and only causes more problems with game flow interruptions. It means there is something wrong with IC interactions, law, or rules. Ahelp shouldn't be the solution to ANY problem that comes about due to legit IC actions. Admins got better things to due than sort through a bunch of shit over something that could be solved through very simple and minor changes or notes added to space law.

 

I think anyone would rather not have problems in the first place on both sides of the situation rather than deal with possibly resurrecting the dead and further problems from everyone not privy to the ooc conversation.

 

If closing a loophole requires an ahelp, it means there is still a loophole.

 

[Farya]

Yes, asking help from IAA would be better here. But still Ahelp sometimes is needed when secs is especialy toxic.

[Keroman]

 

There are always going to be loopholes for sure, and as Farya said looking for an IC solution is definitely preferable to ahelping, but if you find yourself about to be executed or locked away with no other recourse your IC options have run dry.

 

Oddly enough, G-Glob, I once proposed the addition of a law that was similar to the "theft by finding" thing that was mentioned earlier in the thread. It went something along the lines of: If a crewmember is caught with a high-value item but there is no evidence that they stole it it should be treated as a medium crime with a sentence of 10 minutes. An exception to this should be made if the crew member is actively turning the item in to security or has notified security of their finding and is on their way to turn it in.

 

It got very little traction specifically because the general consensus was that it was trying to patch a loophole that simply didn't exist.

 

I'd like to ask when was the last time you saw someone legitimately get in trouble in the manner you're describing? I can honestly say I've never seen it happen. Shitty security has checks and balances both IC and OOC. If we're going to try to close every little potential loophole the rules list will just be a ridiculous mess.

 

[Doukan]

It'd be nice if the tazing on sight thing wasn't a thing, it's to be expected when there's a known danger or it's red alert and there's s-lings running around or something but the whole "he's criminal scum? light 'em up without saying anything!" regardless of circumstances is getting really annoying.

[Fox McCloud]

 

It'd be nice if the tazing on sight thing wasn't a thing, it's to be expected when there's a known danger or it's red alert and there's s-lings running around or something but the whole "he's criminal scum? light 'em up without saying anything!" regardless of circumstances is getting really annoying.

 

People will always run, if this is a forced requirement security MUST adhere to.

 

While I agree that it's annoying when sec just lights people up, there's a reason for it. The times I've seen even the more robust security players lose someone they need to arrest, purely because they took the time to tell them to "halt, stop, you're under arrest for...." is very high.

 

[KasparoVv]

 

-long post-

 

Lmao that's downright shitlery, what the hell? I'm surprized they didn't get a bannu. Grand theft is perfectly valid as it stands.

 

[necaladun]

 

There's a really easy solution here that doesn't revolve around changing space law:

 

If you're in possession of something that could be construed as grand theft, hand it in asap, and say that you're doing so over radio.

 

If you see something on the ground that is grand theft to pick up, either don't pick it up, or say you are to return it before you pick it up.

 

Don't put it on, activate it, and run around.

 

Simple!

 

[Quakes72]

 

So its my fault that a borg immediately opened fire on me as soon as I was seen and it teleported me away? I certainly wasn't hiding it, I was wearing it, and didn't get 10 steps down the hall before it happened.

 

I would like to throw into this conversation that I was the borg who part of this scenario.

 

I remember this rather well after you gave me that little recap there. I would consider myself one of the most capable security borgs on the station. People know my in game borg characters and I have often received compliments in OOC and LOOC for my borg strategies. In this case you were using a hand teleporter in a main hallway (if I remember correctly it was part of the hallway near a bridge door). You certainly were not hiding it... that is the problem here. You had an item like that and as you claim the captain gave it to you; in that case you should not be using the hand teleporter out in the open. As a borg I lack the ability to Shift-click to see what items were in your hands. The only reason I knew you had the hand teleporter is because you opened a portal. There are very few good reasons to open a portal in a primary hallway; most, if not all of them are related to impending death.

In your case seeing someone without access to a hand teleporter using a hand teleporter in the main hallway, it was of course my decision to attempt an arrest.

In the idea of your change; a Cargo tech is not the god of the disposals system. His job is simply to process what comes down. Before the use of the recycling machine it was his job to take matierials and put them into the autolaythe to reclaim the materials. Just because a laser rifle comes down the chute, that does not mean it is suddenly the property of the cargo department. When a high risk or value item is put in the disposals it should be returned to the appropriate department after announcing so over the radio.

 

[LightFire53]

 

As a borg I lack the ability to Shift-click to see what items were in your hands.

 

Minor, minor PSA: Control Shift Click.

 

I do recall somehow being involved in this incident, though I don't remember what I was doing. Detective, maybe? All I remember is that the way you were acting, you were not playing the innocent victim. As Keroman, Neca, Fox, and now myself have pointed out, turning in an restricted item is not a crime. Stealing it is. Not stealing it, but not turning it in is also a crime. How do I not get arrested? Turn it in.