Needs System (Read before hating.)

[Vivalas]

 

So yeah a year or so ago Goonstation had an april fool's prank where they added a "needs system" that forced players to do things like shower and use the restrooms. The system I am proposing is similar and I will outline it very thoroughly.

 

I plan to fully implement this myself, and have been planning this for a while but didn't want to mess with HUD code but now that we have the neat /tg/ notification system I plan on taking a whack at it. As this is a fairly large change that will affect the flow of gameplay rather drastically I want to know what the community thinks before even embarking on this project.

 

Background

So currently we only have one need: hunger. It can be annoying sometimes but is otherwise a small feature that adds a little variety to the game. I've often wondered why there is no requirement for thirst, and as of now drinks are fun RP items that you can use in your spare time to immerse yourself a bit. (I like to sit in conference room and drink coffee as HoP.)

 

SS13 is an emergent game, and adding these extra needs will hopefully heighten emergent interactions between crew and allow for extra small bouts of RP and create more hotspots of activity (bathrooms will be much more used), and allowing for, say, killing your assassination target when he goes to take a bathroom break. Another advantage is the fact that there will be a little more to do during downtime to occupy yourself and whatnot.

 

The System.

The needs system will add 3 more needs to the game. These are:

-Thirst

-Hygiene

And -Restroom

 

The system will add 3 new "needs" like hunger using the notification system that will need to be addressed from time to time.

 

Thirst: This one is the most straightforward, and if nothing else should be the one with the least impact on gameplay. This need basically only requires to, of course, drink something when thirty. It will operate much like hunger but instead of increasing when cold will increase when warm. Reagents will get a variable that affects thirst and can be positive or negative. Water would quench your thirst the most, soda would be less effective, and salt would make you more thirsty, just as examples. I don't expect this to have much of an impact on gameplay as when you stop work to get some food you can also take some extra few seconds to buy a soda, or visit the bar or something for a glass of water. The penalty for this need would be a slow down like hunger.

 

Hygiene: This need is also pretty explanatory and requires the player to shower every once and a while. When you have gone for a certain period without showering you will get some messages and also a notification. To satiate this need you only need to go get in the shower and wash yourself off. This need would be independent from things like being covered in blood, and would require standing in the shower for about 10 seconds. The penalty for not saitiating this need would be minor slowdown but also a message telling everyone how horrible you stink.

 

Restroom: This will arguably be the most contentious need for obvious reasons. I haven't decided yet on whether or not to open up the can of worms of feces, seeing how even Goon got rid of that, but if implemented it would be similar to vomit. Basically you get the urge to go every once in a while along with a notification. To satiate this need you need to use a toilet (probably by click dragging on to toilet and holding still. This will not be the same as buckling.). Using a toilet will make your hands dirty (for the purposes of surgery, but I may also add possible food poisoning if you eat with dirty hands), so make sure to wash after you go! The penalty for not doing this will probably also just be slowdown, because, ya know, ew. Toilets have a small chance of being clogged after being used, and the janitor will get a plunger to deal with this when it happens. Attempting to flush a clogged toilet will result in it splashing the user with toilet water and (???) whatever else. If the cistern has an object inside it will make a rattling sound when the toilet is used.

 

Possible Issues/Additional but optional changes

 

Everyone always finds things to get salty about, but some issues with this system I can forsee are:

 

-Overflowing bathrooms. Currently there are two bathrooms and if this PR goes through I might propose adding one to escape in place of the rarely used podbay. This can lead to long queue lines for the toilets and showers in combination with:

-Simultaneous urges. The system may need to be randomized from person to person so not everyone from roundstart gets the urge to wash and shit at the same time, as hilarious as that might be. This isn't really noticable with food since most people wait a little before eating because they are preoccupied and there are lots of places to get food.

-Security. Just gonna have to hold it while brigged, I guess.

-Frequency. I don't want frequent urges to overwhelm actual ingame activities, so they will probably need to be balanced. Hunger and thirst might be reduced a bit, and I plan on making it so you only need to shower and shit once or twice per round.

 

Possible additions:

-Escape bathroom. A bathroom in escape to make 3 bathrooms that are evenly spread across the station. I would convert the podbay into a small bathroom as well as a security holding cell for transfers.

-Bodily fluids. Again, just a thought. A poo reagent might not be well recieved but being the janitor and cleaning poo and plunging toilets sounds fun.

-Leisure need. A very very far flung and optional need that involves some sort of leisure activity once per round, like drinking alcohol, smoking, playing holodeck, doing drugs, and so forth. This is just a mere thought and would need more planning if actually considered.

 

 

So yeah, please hate/comment/brainstorm as you please.

 

[Vivalas]

With regards to slowdown, I plan to rework the hunger system and consolidate all needs into a few sets of procs. The slowdowns would be weighted, only using the worst of the slowdowns, so you don't get cumulative slowdown when hungry, dirty, thirsty, and shitsy.

[LittleBigKid2000]

On one hand, this would give an actual use for the soda machines and bathrooms (Other than RP , washing off blood, and hiding contraband and dead bodies). On the other hand, I feel like this would just add tedium.

[Pseudo_Unicorn]

I imagine a LOT of people just not giving a damn and peeing themselves. Frankly, I'd love to see a needs/wellness system similar to Lifeweb's, regardless.

[saywat_the_15th]

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, too much hassle.

[tigercat2000]

 

kek fuck no

 

this isn't the sims

 

[Keilden]

Instead of making you slow down when your needy how about giving you a small bonus when full/quenched/notsmelly. That way you don't need to go around doing all that stuff but if you do you get somthing good from it.

[Boltersam]

 

I'd like this, but there is one thing that is a must-have.

 

If someone is dirty and you see them, there will be several derogatory messages such as:

 

"X smells like they slept in a dumpster"

 

"Y holds their nose as soon as they see you. Get a shower!"

 

"Z is covered in filth!"

 

"B grimaces as soon as they catch sight of you. Clean yourself up!"

 

[Coldflame]

Do you seriously trust the average player on the server right now with mechanics that let them urinate?

[Fox McCloud]

 

This system was made as a joke, for April Fools on Goon, and was intentionally designed to be annoying and irritating. It totally wrecked Goon's population when it was up---at that time they had a solid 50-60+ population, and while this was run, they were in the low 30's.

 

It's just not fun, long term, even when it's toned down. You end up having to spend a decent portion of your shift taking care of your "needs" and balancing+juggling them while still attempting to do your job.

 

[Sothangel]

I can get behind the idea, but as Fox indicates, it wouldn't be a good addition for the server.

[Farya]

Thirst still could be fine addition. And some text appearing when you take a shower would be fun too. That would still add a bit of immersion without making it mandatory.

[Vivalas]

 

Too much hassle.

 

This is actually what I was the most worried about. IMHO twice per round to shower/poop isn't much. That's about once per hour. Drinking won't be that much more hassle, some already do it anyways.

 

The big problem I see is for people like scientists who never leave their labs usually over the course of the entire round until the end. I'm thinking of adding a bathroom to medbay and science to compensate that, and there are already showers in science, so scientists won't be bothered to go too far out of their way to satisfy their needs.

 

I imagine a LOT of people just not giving a damn and peeing themselves. Frankly, I'd love to see a needs/wellness system similar to Lifeweb's, regardless.

 

The planned penalty for not using restroom/shower is slowdown. This can possibly be changed to something else, but I'm not sure what community opinion is for adding the ability to go all over yourself. I think a "bodily fluids" regent and a generic blue liquid like in sims would be better than adding shit and piss.

 

Do you seriously trust the average player on the server right now with mechanics that let them urinate?

 

This was one of the main reasons I made this thread, since I am not sure I want to add this feature. Refer to the above quote. I want to know how okay the community is with that, since even the Goons removed poo.

 

I think to find a good balance for needs it just needs some testing on live rounds. Once per hour doesn't seem that intensive and if this is bad enough to the point where people play other servers, it can always be removed. I think this is worth testing/tweaking.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

This has three main issues.

1)Tedium

I'm highly skeptical of a player actually enjoying having to take time out of their gameplay to spend a few seconds extra on things like taking a shower, washing their hands, taking a dump, and drinking a bit more considering people already complain about having to eat food once in a while. It's not uncommon to end up completely absorbed in your work to the point where you actually ignore the meters on the right side of your screen, and when that occurs, if you force and action every few seconds or cause some form of debuff, you begin to create something that's not as immersive as it is incredibly annoying and detrimental to the experience.

2)Time

The round time as it stands is in a nice spot right now where it ends around the time where things start to really wind down or get destroyed, with a system like this, the round will slow significantly due to new necessities, as well as limit the availibility of some important roles and other jobs. Due to how busy some departments can get and how often you need to be mobile, this wouldn't help out many of the more time constricted and busybody jobs.

3)Population

While people can enjoy the added necessities, many will not, and this will mean a drastic reduction in the amount of players on the server, besides the people who can appreciate or enjoy a system like this. This isn't to say the system itself is bad, just that the system itself will likely not be enjoyed by the larger part of the population without serious adjustment or flat out removal if it were added. If it was enjoyed, population fluctuations are a real problem, and because this system would be on most people, it would end up causing crowding where there otherwise wouldn't be, even with a number of additions.

 

[NTSAM]

 

Thirst at least would be nice though if it worked in the same vein as hunger where you wouldn't die because you didn't shove a can of soda down your gullet for the past 30 minutes but you'd get a minor debuff for not taking care of it.

 

"Your mouth feels dry."

"Your throat is scratchy."

"You could go for a nice drink about now."

 

Maybe make it give you annoying messages every 30 or so seconds?

 

[Renomaki]

 

Honestly, I'd love to have a needs system of sorts, but to make it work best, you'd probably have to do it one at a time. I can see thirst easily being implemented, since there are sources of water everywhere, so it wouldn't be much of a hassle to deal with in my opinion. After all, who doesn't enjoy a nice soda while they work, let alone a beer at the bar?

 

However, showering and relieving yourself would be much harder to work into an average shift. A lot of people already explained why that would be, and it does sadden me to see an idea get shot down... But I'd still like to have more reason to shower and use the toilets.

 

Maybe we need to make it so that there are more ways to get really dirty, like make things such as butchering or gardening get you dirty gradually, until you become a walking cloud of dust and dirt ala that dirty kid from Peanuts. Make it more an RP thing than a need of sorts, while giving showers more love. As for toilets, well... It would be nice if people could do more with them as well. Even if it is completely pointless, I'd like toilets to be able to do more other than hide stuff. Maybe make it a form of light cryo, where a player can sit his ass on the toilet to safely enter SSD, while giving off a funny inspect message, along with them poots and farts every now and then for chuckles and to prove they really are on the loo.

 

With time, a needs system could be refined into something that is both immersive and flexible, but for now, it would be a good idea to take it one step at a time and see how it rolls.

 

[Bigtimetripod]

 

TL;DR opinion

 

Tatortot:

 

Oh im so gonna get caps laser, i have everything worked out! Everything went well, about to leave and... oh damn i forgot to take a piss, oh damn i cannot hold it... woops... ill just run... 15 minutes later tator i caught thanks to the detective cause of an..

Accident that happened in middle of robbery...

 

Nukie: oke guys, we fly in, blow comms, rush bridge, get cap.... JERRY WHERE THE FUCK ARE YOU GOING?! Sorry, Sir, i need to take a piss, ill be right back!

 

Vampire:

 

Oh damn... security is everywhere... i must hide out in the shadows... thank god them fools took NV huds and ditched their flashlights, i can easly hide in shadows while they jusy walk past!... oh one is coming, ill just huddle in this maint. Corner... oke his about to pass... wait... oh i cannot hold it.... 5 minutes later vampire is being feed holy water cause its was caught by the security when officer saw a puddle appear out of nowhere...

 

.... either way to add my 2 cents... i even forget to eat sometimes and that effes up my antag run, just imagine having 2-4 more things to look out for..

 

Oh oh, before i blow this lovely station, let me just spend 5 minutes on the bathroom... This system feels like a... burden, more then a feature.

 

[Vivalas]

 

Since thirst seems popular I'm thinking of implementing that, while leaving showering a pure RP thing with a "this dude smells like ass message" if you don't shower at least once per hour, no slowdown.

 

Kind of torn about bathroom need. Without the need to shower it would be less of a hassle, and really wouldn't add that much burden as people seem to claim it would, with the exception of

TL;DR opinion

 

Tatortot:

 

Oh im so gonna get caps laser, i have everything worked out! Everything went well, about to leave and... oh damn i forgot to take a piss, oh damn i cannot hold it... woops... ill just run... 15 minutes later tator i caught thanks to the detective cause of an..

Accident that happened in middle of robbery...

 

Nukie: oke guys, we fly in, blow comms, rush bridge, get cap.... JERRY WHERE THE FUCK ARE YOU GOING?! Sorry, Sir, i need to take a piss, ill be right back!

 

Vampire:

 

Oh damn... security is everywhere... i must hide out in the shadows... thank god them fools took NV huds and ditched their flashlights, i can easly hide in shadows while they jusy walk past!... oh one is coming, ill just huddle in this maint. Corner... oke his about to pass... wait... oh i cannot hold it.... 5 minutes later vampire is being feed holy water cause its was caught by the security when officer saw a puddle appear out of nowhere...

 

.... either way to add my 2 cents... i even forget to eat sometimes and that effes up my antag run, just imagine having 2-4 more things to look out for..

 

Oh oh, before i blow this lovely station, let me just spend 5 minutes on the bathroom... This system feels like a... burden, more then a feature.

 

this.

 

Really hadn't thought about how this would affect antagonists.

 

[Rumiluntti]

 

We are not giving this playerbase the ability to shit or piss.

Showering constantly sounds like a complete pain in the ass and stupid as hell.

Thirst sounds somewhat reasonable, would be funny to make it work with some saltiness level of the food you eat or something. Eat chips and cheesy honkers? Your mouth is dry like bedouin's sandals. Even then it would be just another hunger meter...

 

[NTSAM]

Shitting and pissing never ever never

[Fox McCloud]

 

This isn't a good idea, at all.

 

Hunger is already a system that is, at best, annoying, at worst, at worst, down right annoying for the sake of being annoying.

 

Thirst, showering, going to the bathroom, and other such things are going to be no different---in fact worse. It's using the game's code for force roleplay onto people for no reason than for the reason of forcing it into them. That's just poor design. This isn't the Sims. Such as system brings nothing in terms of new gameplay to the table; it's just a ritual that players are forced to go through because the code deems it as such. Most mechanics have explicit reason for and against them---adhering to them has benefits, while not adhering to them does nothing or has negatives.

 

Having to shower each shift does nothing for gameplay---having to drink does nothing for gameplay---having to use the bathroom doesn't do much for gameplay (other than create slipping hazards).

 

This system was created purely as a joke to and a jab at high roleplay---not shockingly, Bay did like aspects of it because they like roleplay purely for the sense of roleplay. We're most definitely not high roleplay and never will be. Systems like this only generate annoyances with no inherent gameplay reason for them to exist; it's complexity for complexity's sake (and that's badddd).

 

[necaladun]

 

Peeing/Pooping? Just. No. I do not trust the average player with that, sorry to say.

 

Showering? There's already a need for that if you're covered in blood, etc. Maybe more reasons to have to shower, but a "hygiene" meter is just silly especially for 2 hour shifts. And I have no idea why that would slow you down.

 

Thirst I...kinda like because we already have drinks, and it actually makes sense moreso than hunger. You'll get thirsty faster than you get hungry. If it was implemented, rather than adding alongside hunger, I'd halve hunger's slowdown, and thirst would make up the other half of it.

 

[tigercat2000]

 

Thirst I...kinda like because we already have drinks, and it actually makes sense moreso than hunger. You'll get thirsty faster than you get hungry. If it was implemented, rather than adding alongside hunger, I'd halve hunger's slowdown, and thirst would make up the other half of it.

There really doesn't need to be a seperate "hunger" and "thirst" system at all. It strikes me as very irritating, "oh no I have to go to the bar or find one of the drink vendors now alongside the food vendors."

 

Nukeops stopping in the middle of their assault because "oh i forgot my flask of water sorry guys just stop shooting for a sec thanks".

 

[Kyet]

 

SS13 is a videogame.

Videogames don’t exist to be realistic.

They exist to be fun.

 

Specifically they exist to let you do fun things you can't do in RL.

After all, if you could do them in RL, why not do that instead?

 

Eating and drinking is fun in RL because you (presumably) like the taste of the food you eat.

In RL, the thing that matters is taste.

Taste does not exist in SS13.

How can you make an experience fun in SS13, when it is all about experiencing something that doesn't exist here?

You can't.

 

Additionally, having to satisfy these needs would interrupt things you're already doing (ie: potential fun you're already having) for the sake of something that's never going to be fun.

How do you describe things which take you away from fun, and force you to devote attention to things which are not fun? Distractions. Annoyances.

 

Let's not add distractions. Let's not add annoyances.

 

[Vivalas]

 

Right I suppose I won't be working on this then, in hindsight the extra tedium seems to outweigh the added emergence of bathrooms being used and I didn't take into account antags while designing this.

 

In fact I really don't think the added burden is really that much, it's just the antags that really gets me. Think of the antags!