Could we make money more meaningful?

[Renomaki]

 

As of now, it seems money in the game is of little value. People start with loads of dough, which makes the goody vender near cargo less rewarding if you can easily buy most of the items in there from round start, when the whole point of it is to reward players who save up enough money TO buy the items in question.

 

Also, the fact that you can easily buy loads of junkfood from venders on the cheap rather than take the time to visit the kitchen to pick up a proper meal is also kinda disappointing when you think about it.. When I go chef, I work hard to get a big platter of food ready for the crew, but the idea that it could be all for nothing because they don't even need to due to food venders being plentiful (along with there being venders that sell PROPER CHINESE FOOD?!?) is kinda disheartening.

 

A part of me feels that a player's allowance for a shift needs to be reworked so that players spend it more wisely, instead of just throwing large chunks away merely to buy enough cardboard to make a cardboard box at the goody vender. But what can we do to make it so that a player has more reason to not spend willy nilly like it had no value?

 

We could just reduce their starting funds at the start of the shift, making it must smaller than before. As of current, many jobs start out with a decent lump of cash, and even an assistant can probably last throughout the shift with his allowance. Of course, they might just try to gamble to get more money, which would require a rework of the slot machines to make it more costly and risky, since as of now, it is rather common for people to hit it big.

 

We could also just make things more expensive, but then it would be kinda silly for a candy bar to cost 200$s. I know it is the future, but I doubt inflation would go that far.. Would it?

 

Any ideas would be appreciated, but in general, I'd like to see this reworked in some way, so that certain jobs have a little more importance instead of being viewed as meaningless due to how easily one can get food and drink without going near the bar/kitchen.

 

[Sothangel]

There's already a mechanic to earn money as a scientist and miner, I think. How would you enable security, engineering and command to earn money?

[Bigtimetripod]

 

On each minute prisoner is given prison senctence, officer can swipe ID to gain X amount of money on each minute.

 

Ex. 15 minutes brig timer, 10$ minute, 150$.

 

For command, its easy, taxes... would take a lot of coding i think, but for every transaction, command can get a % that will go to "Tax terminal" on bridge and here captain can give out sums to heads.

 

Transactions would happen everywhere. Them EEFMO of whatever the eff money transfer scanner would serve 2 purpase then. One so person can pay for items/services and second to generate command taxes.

 

 

Would give more meaning to for example RP rioting. Taxes too high? Lynch the command and captain. Start strikes, refuse to work etc. Cause captain can chooss the tax % on the "Tax terminal".

 

[Coldflame]

 

  Bigtimetripod said:

On each minute prisoner is given prison senctence, officer can swipe ID to gain X amount of money on each minute.

 

Ex. 15 minutes brig timer, 10$ minute, 150$.

paying security to brig as many people as they can for as long as possible is a bad idea

 

[Bigtimetripod]

 

  Coldflame said:

  Bigtimetripod said:

On each minute prisoner is given prison senctence, officer can swipe ID to gain X amount of money on each minute.

 

Ex. 15 minutes brig timer, 10$ minute, 150$.

paying security to brig as many people as they can for as long as possible is a bad idea

 

I understand that this encourages Shitcurity way of life, but its the only logical way. Would also make it easier to thin the herd of shitcurity... if Warden/HoS sees clear rule breaking, then he can have him/her/it demoted and maybe leave a note for memins.

 

 

You could say brigging someone just for money is corruption and punishable by space law, like using confiscated equipment. Would be grounds for demotion and possible... employment contract ender per say.

 

[FPK]

Goon has a pretty good money system. ATMs are a lot less fucky, credits properly stack, card readers make transactions easy, and there's actually some things worth spending money on. Right now, money on Paradise just doesn't make sense. Money is essentially worthless, beyond an RP standpoint. There's nothing for sale on the station worth buying, and even if someone does charge money for services, it's easy as fuck to earn money by just playing the slot machines.

[Sothangel]

 

  FPK said:

even if someone does charge money for services, it's easy as fuck to earn money by just playing the slot machines.

 

I've never sseen anyone lose money on the slotties, actually.

 

[CrAzYPiLoT]

In my opinion, we should make constant bank accounts. The shift itself wouldn't be bad. The refactoring and balancing everything else to suit the new system would. That's why this idea gets rejected most of the time.

[Vivalas]

 

Since this subject was brought up I'm going to copypasta my post from another similar thread on how to completely reform the economy system.

 

(Big.)

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I actually formulated much of this before I looked at that thread but I may take some cues from that and add it to this plan. This is just a general brainstormy-thing to list things that might make an economy feasible in SS13.

 

Starting Wealth: Different occupations start with different amounts of credits at the beginning of the round. A key theme throughout history of creating economy-based drama and conflict is the addition of wealth gaps. I'm imagining there'd be three 'wealth classes' that determine how much money you start with at the beginning of the round.

 

"Upper Class": Command, NT Rep, Blueshield, etc. These would start with 2000 credits in their account each shift. They wouldn't really run into may monetary problems over the course of the shift.

 

"Middle Class": The "big" three (or four) departments: Engineering, Security, Medical, and Research staff would start with 500 credits in their account. The QM also falls into this class.

 

"Lower Class": The largest class, and also the lowest paid. Players in this class would be greyshirts, mime/clown, shaft miners/cargo techs, and the service department. These would start with 100 credits in their account.

 

The idea is that the different classes have about a 4-5x seperation in wealth, creating a noticeable gap.

 

Accounts: Each department account would start with about 1000 credits in it. There would also be a main station account with 20000 credits in it, a payroll account with 15000 credits in it, and an emergency account with 10000 credits in it.

 

Wages: Wages would be paid once every 20 minutes from the payroll account. The base wages for the different classes would be: 50 per cycle for Lower Class, 100 per cycle for Middle Class, and 500 per cycle for Upper Class.

 

Take an example station: 5 heads of staff, about 5 in each "middle department", and 20 total lower class workers. This is a mid-to-high pop station. The amount per cycle in the payroll paid to employees would be (5x500) + (20x100) + (50x20) = 4500 per credits per cycle. This would take about an hour usually to deplete the starting payroll budget, so usually, along with other money sinks, there would need to be management.

 

Management: The HoP gains the responsibility of managing the station budget and "work orders" which will be explained lower in the post. Various departments would have ways of managing their expenses and generating income, and the HoP is the one in charge of the station accounts and the budget. More on this will be explained lower.

 

Money Sinks/Gains (For the station as a whole): First of all, the current method of transferring money (EFTPOS scanners) are inefficient and unwieldy. A simple and quick replacement for EFTPOS scanners will need to be created and made widely available to the crew. However, the current barrier to paying for services (such as food, and medical care) is how loooong it takes to set up transactions, and is generally not fun. There needs to be made faster ways to process these that are almost automatic. Let's call these "work orders".

 

Each department would have various ways of acquiring income.

 

Service: The kitchen gains a "nanopaste injector" which can inject food with nanobots that mark the price of the food. This price can be seen by examining the food. When food is eaten, the nanobots take the DNA of the consumer and use this to generate a "work order" based on the medical records found by that DNA string. A work order with the price is sent to the HoP and the linked account for processing.

 

Medical: A "medical ticket" dispenser could be added to the lobby. These holographic tickets can be printed out for a small fee, or a diagnostic charge. These will last for 20 minutes and mark the user on medical HUDS. The dispenser can be configured to automatically grant access to medical bay if these tickets are bought (so patients can buy their way in), but this would start off by default and be up to the CMO. This "fast entry" feature can also be configured with whitelists and blacklists so that, for example, crew can buy a ticket to enter medical bay and get treatment, but a certain crew member or profession (clown or mime, for example), that prints the ticket but does not grant access. (So to prevent unwanted entry into medical.) Additionally use of health analyzers on patients can generate seperate work orders based on the severity of the injuries of the patient. Cryotubes and operating tables can also be configured to generate work orders (surgery is expensive, yo!).

 

Security: SecHUDS can be used to fine criminals based on infractions on Space Law. The HoS must approve these fines at his request console. The base fines would be "Disturbance": 10 credits (anything that grants a warning from an officer or a very minor infraction that does not end in brig time) Minor Crime: 50 credits, Moderate Crime: 100 credits, and Major Crimes : 500 credits. These stack with multiple offenses. This helps security generate revenue but also discourages self-antagging. Capital Crimes would warrant a "termination" of the convict's account, freezing the account and transferring all credits to the station account.

 

Engineering: The CE can choose to instate a "gas tax" or "safety tax" which is a small automated tax on every crew member. The base tax would be 10 credits every 15 minutes.

 

Research: Research can generate work orders by upgrading machines with the RPED (which automatically charges the affected department's account), and selling mechs/upgraded equipment.

 

Work Orders: All the above things (and possiblly more) generate "work orders" or "payment orders". These must be approved by the HoP, and will collect over time. In short, none of the above things will actually charge the crew's accounts unless the HoP actually processes the orders. This is to prevent abuse by crewmembers spamming RPEDS or health analyzers on other crew to gain money for their department and the station. For things like medical and research, these orders can be "grouped", and an automated algorithm can be useful for doing so. If a doctor scans a patient's vitals multiple times, the HoP can condense these into one charge, not multiple. This process is also completely optional. A HoP might find themselves never approving any payment orders, depending on other income sources they might come across. In this matter they collect over time, so an hour into the round the HoP might be low on funds only to open up the work orders screen to find tons of orders they can process to raise money.

 

Balance of Powers: It is important to note that the HoP has no control over, say, the price of the gas tax, the cost of medical treatment, or the fines set by the HoS. The HoP simply has the power to accept/deny these orders and set the "tax amount" (how much of the money goes to the station account and how much goes to the department account. Default 50/50). The different department heads control the various prices of their services, so this introduces some meaningful department politics. Additionally. the HoP cannot transfer money out of department accounts, only in.

 

The Captain, however, is the central authority on the station budget, having complete control over all prices and departmental/station funds. As they, of course, are the CO of the Cyberiad. This gives the Captain a lot of political capital to shift around when negotiating/making deals with other heads. Piss off the captain by toe-ing the line and you might find your department's budget mysteriously a few hundred credits short.

 

Money Sinks (station): Of course, department and station budgets are useless without money sinks to be worked around. The most obvious and largest money sink of course is the payroll, which will have the largest effect. Faxes to central and such cost money, as well as a small "operating cost" whenever a shuttle is moved (cargo/mining/research/etc.). Another sink is the cost of calling (and recalling) the emergency shuttle, which is a flat 10000 credits to call, 5000 to recall. This is the primary purpose of the emergency budget. Additionally cargo would be moved to a system based on credits rather than supply points, and all items in the game would recieve an arbitrary value so lower-class crew trying to scratch a living to get food and medical treatment could sell stuff to cargo. Another possible money sink from the station would be "audits" from central command, or audits from the NT Rep.

 

Crew Side of the Economy: So far all this talk has been about the station and various budgets, but what about the individual? Well, for one, the starting pay of most crew will serve to pay off food and medicine until the first few pay-rounds, but there are various other ways to get money, such as transactions with other crew members.

 

A system of bonuses/raises can also be implemented. Heads could give crew bonuses/raises, which come from the department budget, to reward or encourage good work from their staff.

 

As for money sinks, this is the fun part. The above systems add plenty of ways to go into debt and become bankrupt. Getting robusted by the clown not only means getting a face full of medical bills, but also a possible fine if security believes (falsely, of course, those fascist skreks) that you were part of the fight. Another spectrum of gameplay is added where crew also have to balance their money as well as the other parts of SS13.

 

Debt: It's inevitable, and it will eventually happen. The HoP is able to set two thresholds, a "debt cap", and a "debt limit". The debt cap (default -100 credits) is the maximum amount of debt an employee can go into before they are cut off. The station budget automatically pays off the indebted money, up to the limit, unless the money is going to the station budget itself. Accounts in the red will reroute all recieved money into the station budget until they are out of debt. While the debt cap only cuts off spending, it is still possible to accrue extra debt, such as from hospital bills or, probably the most common form, from security fines. When the account's debt reaches the "debt line" (default -1000 credits), the HoP will recieve a message from his PDA or request console, and security will also be notified. If the captain or HoS agree to it, then the HoP can order a crew member past the "debt limit" detained. That crew member will then be forced to work at the labor camp for a certain amount of time at which point the station will pay off the crew member's debt. Alternately, the HoP could also freeze the employee's account to prevent further debt.

 

Station Debt: The HoP dun goofed, and now the station is out of money. What happens here is really up to the admins, either CC can leave the station in the rain and politely tell them "you're fucked, you're here to make us money, not cost us money", or bail out the station. In the latter case. the HoP will most likely be demoted for incompetence as this is a breach of SOP on the HoP's end. In the event payroll is not able to be paid, the crew will probably be very pissed off, and CC will send some stern warnings to the station.

 

Aggressive Money Making Strategies: If the station is running out of money, the HoP is expected to take more and more vigorous measures to ensure bankruptcy never happens. Such things can involve higher prices and taxes, or more departmental tax (e.g., 95% percent of work order revenue goes to station budget rather than 50), or even sales tax on transactions between crew members (security now gets to enforce these and arrest people who try to conduct under-the-table sales using cash). What happens is really up to the captain/HoP but the more authoritarian command becomes the more likely the crew will get pissed off and simply mutiny or quit altogether.

 

Cargo/Accounts: Since cargo would use departmental budgets to order everything, they take on a more active role then sitting around waiting for orders. They can barter and buy things from the crew (like a pawn shop), to sell back to CC. The use of department accounts comes into mind here because various staff can use their department accounts to purchase things like virus crates or sheets of metal.

 

Because of the nature of accounts though, getting your head to come authorize all purchases can be painstaking though, so a "permissions system" could be made to allow certain trusted staff to use the department budget in absence of the head/

 

The ore-redeemer can also serve as a source of revenue for cargo. And would be the main money sink for research.

 

 

 

----------

Optional Fun Idea: Traders

 

A ghost-join role where people "visitors" can dock with the station and sell goods/services to the crew. They would have a special Z-level where they can use special vendors to buy stuff to sell, and can make multiple trips back and forth.

 

Visitors would fall under a special SOP, where space law does not apply to them.

 

In the event they cause trouble, they can be politely asked to leave the station, or be permanently detained. In the case they do not wish to leave peacefully, their ship and all it's possessions can be seized and sold/auctioned to the crew, and the ship can be forcefully undocked form the station. Such aggressive manners of conducting business are looked down upon by NT however, and abusing this power to anger traders may result in some unkind CC announcements. Matters regarding visitors fall entirely upon the Captain, and the magistrate has no say in the matter.

 

As a rule, about 2-3 traders can be active at any one time, and only about 1 or 2 can join the round every 30 minutes.

 

This system would help the economy and allow outside trade for things not normally find able on station. Insulated glove merchants anyone?

 

To combat contraband, the warden, HoS, and captain can alter a list of "restricted items", using the newscasters.

 

This list falls into two categories: "prohibited items" and "restricted items", and these lists would be available to read from newscasters so to keep traders and the crew update on import/export laws.

 

"restricted" covers items like insulated gloves and guns, which only certain jobs are permitted to have

 

"prohibited" covers things like explosives and hand teles, that only command or nobody at all is allowed to have.

 

-----

Persistence (Optional Fun Rule #2): As the framework for this is already in place thanks to failed earlier attempts, this could be looked at again. An idea I have for this is to make in-game accounts separate from OOC accounts. Mainly, all players have a shared account across their characters that starts with 100 credits. At the end of the round 10% of all money they have in their personal account goes into their OOC account (provided they escape on the shuttle or pods alive and not in the shuttle brig) . All players will start with a special device they can use to withdraw money from their OOC account, when they need it in a round.

 

This way, OOC accounts are a useful tool if you need money in a pinch and they grow slowly over time. They can withdraw from their OOC accounts over the course of the round, just not put money back in.

 

 

----

 

So, in closing this I realize this is a bit hastily typed and may be a bit indecipherable. If you something needs clarification just ask and I can explain it better.

 

Tl;dr: HoP gets more stuff to do, cargo gets more stuff to do, departments get a seemless way to charge for services without using clunky EFTPOS scanners, and command politics becomes a thing.

 

Another thing I forgot to mention is that all changes to the account of a character or work orders processed in their name will net a notification on their PDA, so that way they know when they are fined, when gas tax is applied, and when the asshole chef just charged them 4000 credits for a donut.

 

 

[CrAzYPiLoT]

I really like your ideas, Vivalas, although, IMO, there should be other sources of income for the engineering department besides the gas tax. Maybe charging for repairs, as NT stuff is expensive and should not be broken?

[liran424]

 

  CrAzYPiLoT said:

I really like your ideas, Vivalas, although, IMO, there should be other sources of income for the engineering department besides the gas tax. Maybe charging for repairs, as NT stuff is expensive and should not be broken?

 

Charging for repairs? do you want a derelict space station, because that's how you make a derelict space station.

 

no one will pay for repairs.. they'll just fix it themselves, plenty of metal to go around. not to mention that if they don't repair they'll have nothing to do. it's their job... it's like saying doctors should charge people for treatment (thanks Obama).

 

[Sothangel]

 

  liran424 said:

  CrAzYPiLoT said:

it's like saying doctors should charge people for treatment (thanks Obama).

 

lelwat

 

It concerns me that it might mean people get into serious trouble for no fault of their own - Stolen IDs being used to buy stuff, they have an accident, medical won't treat you because no money? Riiiiisky

 

[CrAzYPiLoT]

Add insurance from NT to a certain point. Problem solved?

[Keroman]

 

While I like the idea of having a functioning economy and persistent bank accounts for players it doesn't necessarily make sense to have each department charge for their services. There's two, maybe three departments where I can see it making sense.

 

Service: It's literally in the name of the department. They're providing a service. Chefs can charge for food, bartender can charge for drinks, barber can charge for haircuts, chaplain can charge for various religious services, hydroponic can sell drugs/bluespace tomatoes, clowns can charge for sending honk viruses, and mimes can die in a fire.

 

Supply: If an order is for a specific department charge it to that department, not to the individual who orders it. If an order is for an individual THEN you can charge the individual. It makes sense for Supply to charge for stuff! Hell, let the miners charge for ores, being mindful that if they ask too much they likely won't get fun toys from Science!

 

Science: Charge for stuff from the protolathe. Like with Supply if they're providing items to benefit a department (weapons/mechs to sec, exp. welders to engineering, etc.) charge the department. If you're handing out stuff to randos who come to the window and ask for a bag of holding CHARGE 'EM.

 

Otherwise the rest of the departments are there to keep the station running smoothly. Medbay keeps the crew on their feet, Engineering keeps the station intact, Security keeps the bad guys at bay. These three departments are getting paid by NT to do these things, why should they also get paid by the crew? These jobs should be higher paid than Service/Supply/Science because of the fact that they aren't making money off of the crew.

 

[Renomaki]

 

While I did agree with quite a few of viv's ideas, I am against the idea of departments like Medical charging people for very vital services.

 

While it is stated in SoP that the barkeep can charge people for drinks, the idea of making doctors charge staff to glue your arm back on is a tad harsh on the crew. After all, in viv's suggestion, it was stated that low ranking crew would get a mere 100 credits to start with, along with very meager wages. It would create a harsh bias in an unintended way.

 

Things like engineering and medical should be supplied by the station and NT, while things such as entertainment, personal cargo orders and legal punishments should cost staff money.

 

Onto another topic, I don't want the economy to be too complicated by any means. Yes, I want money to have more value to crew so they don't just burn it like it is nothing, but I also what it to be simple as well. For instance, like Viv mentioned earlier, having job-set wages that add money to your account on a repeating timer throughout the shift instead of starting with large sums already is a nice start. Goon long ago had something similar, if I am correct.

 

The station itself should have a general account controlled by the captain and HoP, from which they can manage the station's starting funds and distribute it to various departments as needed. For instance, instead of cargo points, cargo could use funding given to their department to order things, and ship things like gold, silver and plasma back to command to make money for the station, which can then be shared with the other departments.

 

The station is, after all, invested in by NT Corp, and thus is expected to make them money, so in order to prove you are worth keeping funded, shipping back items of value (valuable ores, research and treasures) would prove to them at you are indeed keeping your end of the bargain IC wise, and thus not wasting their time. It would also make cargo all the more important and interesting, since they are one of the main ways the station would gain income.. At least, how I imagine it...

 

With this income, they can continue to purchase the supplies they need, pay staff wages (and maybe even give raises if the shift is going well), and maybe even purchase special items and upgrades for the station's departments to make them better than they normally can alone, giving even MORE reason to make mo money mo money mo money. hell, it would give the traitor item [briefcase Full of Cash] more value, because now you could find a use for all that cash money, and in times of desperation, a traitor could manipulate crew into giving him what he wants, should the station's command staff somehow waste all their money on stupid things and are nearly bankrupt.. But it is an idea.

 

Adding a bunch of complex taxes and fees would be a tad much, what I am seeking is a much easier to use and deal with system that'll encourage people to work harder and spend wiser, and feel satisfaction in things they buy, rather than just going "meh".. Plus it would be fun to do some minor accounting as HoP as well during slower shifts when people don't want job changes all that much.

 

[Vivalas]

 

Indeed it is hard to come up with a nice economy system while still retaining the fact that the players are all employees on a space station.

 

I like crazypilot's idea regarding insurance. NT pays your medical bills and a few hundred credits for fines from security, as part of your employment contract. If you worked at a hospital you wouldn't get free medical care. Additionally these funds come from CC, so they benefit the station as well as the crew. (Insurance fraud anyone?). We don't want medical bills to be exorbitantly high, just enough to support medical's expenses and help fund the payroll. Medical bills should be moderate 20-50 credits depending on severity of treatment, since lots of people get hurt.

 

As for charing for repairs, I really don't like that, as NT should pay for station repairs, as responsibility for station damage is NT responsibilty. If there were repair fines they would get charged to the department account, not a specific crewmember (although if AssholeMcGee damaged his department by blowing up a fuel tank by accident, he would probably see his pay get docked).

 

I really like my idea regarding cargo, as far as turning them into a pawn shop that buys and sells from the crew, and most purchases would get subtracted feom department budgets. The idea is cargo still does requisitions from CC, but can also buy the various junk assistants bring in to resale to CC for extra money, and sell some odds and ends to independent crew / do personal orders, etc. Yes, employees shouldn't have to pay out of pocket for things they need for work, which is why there are department budgets.

 

I think the main thing here is people thinking that players will have to pay for everything. The only real money sinks for crew would be: security, medical, gas tax (engineering), and food. The rest of the money just circulates around the department budgets and is more of a way of department politics than anything else, and politics are fun.

 

[CrAzYPiLoT]

I probably phrased my 'charge for repairs' idea wrong. I meant that they could charge for the kind of repairs (additions?) that only add to the station. For example, they wouldn't charge for anything that is broken on accident, by events or anything not deliberately broken by the crew(with the exception of vandalism, they would still need to fix that for free), but, they could charge for installing a new set of lighting tiles in a department if they have nothing to do, or upgrading stuff if someone doesn't know how to do it.

[Farya]

 

On Goons Cargo order things not for supply point but for funds from Cargo account. And they also can sell a variety of station goods to earn money. QM also can make contacts with variety of traders to get some rare and useful staff from them but that stuff will be random each round and also costly one.

 

UPD. If you ever will add payed medical service add medical insurance as well. And that insurance must be dependant from job. Security officers, miners, engineers e.t.c have a hazardous work conditions so their insurance should be expensive as well. Civilian and medical jobs are not supposed to met with extreme dangers so their insurance will be lower. Civilians/assistants could have no insurance at all initialy but they could get one after getting a proper job on station.

 

Edited May 20, 2016 by Guest

[CrAzYPiLoT]

Another thing for the HoP to do: sell insurance policies.

[davidchan]

 

Being able to buy useful things would be nice. But this would mean jobs that don't generate/start with excess cash would need to charge for services, making the bartender or chef some serious assholes if they wanted something in particular. Then again, being able to pay an Assistant to run to Cargo and fetch me some tools/metal/what ever as a Roboticist would actually be really nice.

 

Another question that would be brought up: What about the AI and Borgs? If money becomes a thing, would a Malf AI be able to freeze someone's assets? Would someone getting borged still have access to their account, would it disappear or would the AI or their previous head of staff gain it?

 

[Farya]

 

  davidchan said:

question that would be brought up: What about the AI and Borgs? If money becomes a thing, would a Malf AI be able to freeze someone's assets? Would someone getting borged still have access to their account, would it disappear or would the AI or their previous head of staff gain it?

Borgs get no payment by NT regulations. They HAVE accounts on station but cant access them. HoP can access that funds however.