Remove Cloning

[unmovedmover]

 

I want to preface this by saying that I doubt very much that this suggestion will be well received since I am asking to remove a core mechanic of SS13. Nevertheless, I submit it because I think it would push the game in the right direction: one which would play to SS13's strengths as a role-playing game and improve the overall experience.

 

I am writing to petition for the removal of cloning from Paradise. This would entail a map update, removing the cloning scanner, cloning pod, and scanning console from Medbay. The respective machine boards for each of those devices would have to be removed as well. I am not arguing for the removal of resuscitation via CPR or defibrillator as I feel those features genuinely add to the game.

 

The most salient benefit of cloning, and I speculate the primary reason for its inclusion, is the effect it has on the meta-game. Namely, that players who are killed during a round are given an opportunity to re-join the game before the next round. In a game like SS13, in which rounds can take two or more hours to complete, this feature is seen as indispensable.

 

However, I argue that the unintended consequences of cloning, viz. its degenerative effect on roleplaying and gameplay possibilities, far outweigh this benefit, to the point that its removal would vastly improve the game.

 

As GoonStation's famous youtube video observes, death in SS13 is hardly a problem because cloning ensures a second life in a matter of minutes. A direct consequence of this fact is that reckless decision-making is encouraged. All risks are discounted by the player because the cost of death is minimal. The geneticist has little incentive not to test their structural enzymes on themselves. The scientist has few reasons to consider proper safety protocols before testing their bombs. And the medical staff occasionally find themselves more willing to perform the insane act of killing their own patient so that he can be cloned, rather than have him undergo a complex surgical procedure. These absurdities are damaging to the integrity of good role-playing, which is a cornerstone of the SS13 experience.

 

Yet, worse than these absurdities is the limiting effect that cloning has on the possibility frontier for antagonists. An abundance of strategies are infeasible as a direct result of cloning. For instance, hostage-taking and death threats are totally inconsequential because the victim can simply be cloned after his death. The dominant strategy for a victim who encounters an antagonist is to immediately shout over his radio headset, which is rather dull. Cooperation and bargaining with antagonists are discouraged. My imagination runs wild with the strategic possibilities and complex role-playing interactions that would be opened up if cloning were removed.

 

I will admit that such a significant removal would have disruptive effects on the game's balance. The work of antagonists would become much easier as their victims would no longer be able to persecute them after their death. However, these imbalances would be ironed out over time, and I think that the temporary disruption would be worth the immense expansion of gameplay and roleplaying possibilities that I have outlined here.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read my suggestion. I am keen to hear your thoughts on this radical proposal.

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Guest

[Doukan]

 

I agree with your sentiment, but cloning and life after death is such an integral part of the game.

It just wouldn't be SS13 without it, that said though it could probably do with being more resource intensive.

 

[Farya]

 

It would better not to remove cloning but to add more ways to prevent it or make it harder to perform.

And we already have ways to prevent cloning. Large explosions destroy brain and corpse. Corpses decay after some time. You can just steal the head of your target and space it.

 

[Machofish]

 

I firmly disagree with the idea of removing cloning. While I understand the sentiment that players ought to show a greater sense of self-preservation, removing cloning to do so would create lots of discrepancies. For instance, IPCs would have a massive advantage in that they can continue to exist so long as you have their active posibrain, and their chassis. Additionally, removing the cloning lab would still leave the presence of robotics and cyborgification as a viable revival method.

 

I doubt the removal of cloning would make things like death threats or hostage-taking more viable. As it is, usually most players who are taken hostage by antags realize they're dead anyway if they don't fight back - particularly as it's far too risky for antags to leave anyone alive who may rat them out.

 

Again, while I agree that it would be interesting if the server players showed greater self-preservation when confronted with dangerous situations, I do not believe that removing the cloning lab would achieve this.

 

As suggested in the above posts, if cloning was made into a more complex and elaborate process than "Dead bodies go in, living people come out," then that might cause a shift towards higher self-preservation from players.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

I firmly disagree with the idea of removing cloning. While I understand the sentiment that players ought to show a greater sense of self-preservation, removing cloning to do so would create lots of discrepancies. For instance, IPCs would have a massive advantage in that they can continue to exist so long as you have their active posibrain, and their chassis. Additionally, removing the cloning lab would still leave the presence of robotics and cyborgification as a viable revival method.

 

I doubt the removal of cloning would make things like death threats or hostage-taking more viable. As it is, usually most players who are taken hostage by antags realize they're dead anyway if they don't fight back - particularly as it's far too risky for antags to leave anyone alive who may rat them out.

 

Again, while I agree that it would be interesting if the server players showed greater self-preservation when confronted with dangerous situations, I do not believe that removing the cloning lab would achieve this.

 

As suggested in the above posts, if cloning was made into a more complex and elaborate process than "Dead bodies go in, living people come out," then that might cause a shift towards higher self-preservation from players.

 

I agree with most of the points here, but I have a feeling that making cloning more difficult is not going to change all that much, as those experienced with medbay and chem will find ways to make the increased necessities easy to achieve in mass.

 

[unmovedmover]

 

[...] removing cloning to do so would create lots of discrepancies. For instance, IPCs would have a massive advantage in that they can continue to exist so long as you have their active posibrain, and their chassis. Additionally, removing the cloning lab would still leave the presence of robotics and cyborgification as a viable revival method.

It does seem that robotics would need to be tweaked to be consonant with this proposal. The issues you raised with reference to IPCs and cyborgification could be resolved by having brains (both posibrains and human brains) become lifeless after death. Brains which are extracted via surgery while the patient is still alive would be eligible for cyborgification, while brains removed from corpses/debris-piles would be dead and lifeless.

 

[...] while I agree that it would be interesting if the server players showed greater self-preservation when confronted with dangerous situations, I do not believe that removing the cloning lab would achieve this.

I do think that removing cloning would incentivize players to act with a greater concern for self-preservation because the cost of death would be increased from a temporary removal from the round to a permanent removal from the round.

 

As suggested in the above posts, if cloning was made into a more complex and elaborate process than "Dead bodies go in, living people come out," then that might cause a shift towards higher self-preservation from players.

Increasing the cost of the cloning procedure might provide a slight incentive for self-preservation since the chance of one being cloned would be diminished, but I feel that is ultimately an inferior solution to simply removing cloning entirely.

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Guest

[Vivalas]

 

I think cloning should be made much more difficult and have more permanent and long-lasting consequences. I designed a possible system for a seperate game I'm working on that involves using a big claw-like thing to rip pieces of flesh from the corpse, and put the flesh into a series of machines with the end product being a embroyotic vial that gets put into a cloner. The victim's brain has to be transplanted into the new body, which has to be defibbed. The whole process is labor intensive and time intensive and so would only likely be used on high ranking and important crew. I drew up a diagram and if I can be bothered to find it I will post it here.

 

The whole procedure carries possibilities of permanant and irreversible brain damage as well.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

Now that I have another quick second to write, I'd also like to point out that, if cloning is removed, the more competent doctors will just use a UI UE and a monkey, then transfer the brain and defib the recently deceased monkey, which completely negates the cloning process altogether already. So if you'd like to strip out all things equivalent to cloning, you'd need to pretty much remove genetics, at least the more useful parts of it. There are always ways around it, even with increased requirements.

 

(Do note that I am an advocate for simply leaving cloning be, no changes.)

 

Also, quick note, but keeping players out of the game for longer is a fairly bad plan, especially to keep things moving, a good traitor can already keep a deceased player from returning via use of chemicals, engines, spacing, genetics, disfigurements, dismemberment, and otherwise common methods for a traitor (most recently witnessed a round in which a QM was spaced, suit sensors toggled off, nobody could find them for two hours. They were actually found and cloned later on, but still, two hours of being completely and totally lost.)

 

[unmovedmover]

 

Now that I have another quick second to write, I'd also like to point out that, if cloning is removed, the more competent doctors will just use a UI UE and a monkey, then transfer the brain and defib the recently deceased monkey, which completely negates the cloning process altogether already. So if you'd like to strip out all things equivalent to cloning, you'd need to pretty much remove genetics, at least the more useful parts of it. There are always ways around it, even with increased requirements.

This would be handled, I think, by the solution I proposed to Macofish's cyborgification/IPCs concerns, i.e. to distinguish between "active" brains and "lifeless" brains:

[...] [have] brains (both posibrains and human brains) become lifeless after death. Brains which are extracted via surgery while the patient is still alive would be eligible for cyborgification [and transplantation], while brains removed from corpses/debris-piles would be dead and lifeless.

 

[Dinarzad]

 

Coning is not the problem.

Cloning has never really BEEN the problem, it's the WORST way to come back into a round actually, it takes a decent amount of time to be cloned, your stuff is just lying there in the clone lab for somebody to steal it, frequently uyou pop out with disabilities or Brain damage that necessitate doctors t othen handle those things, if they're competant enough to know about them. and if they Don't, grats on your brain damage.

 

The problem is, Cloning previously was about the only way TO Revive and now it ISN'T. You have a LOT of revivification methodologies at your finger tips and all of them objectrively faster and better then Cloning. Defibrillator an then Cryo, bam, you live again. Is the body too old to Defib? Does it have really low damage or can you get it low enough? Strange reagent and you walk once more.

 

Cloning is a hassle, it's a hassle by design for the clone-ee and risky because you're as vulnerable as a newborn baby in there. The OTHER methods are not.

Those are where your problems lie, power creep in the form of multiple forms of reviving people, in much faster and better ways then the originally "Only" form of cloning. (I discount cyborging as reviving, because that crewman is still dead for all antag purposes, they are a new cyborg unit, who they were is deceased.)

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

Cloning isn't really overpowered.

Defibbing is.

 

[unmovedmover]

 

Coning is not the problem.

Cloning has never really BEEN the problem, it's the WORST way to come back into a round actually, it takes a decent amount of time to be cloned, your stuff is just lying there in the clone lab for somebody to steal it, frequently uyou pop out with disabilities or Brain damage that necessitate doctors t othen handle those things, if they're competant enough to know about them. and if they Don't, grats on your brain damage.

 

The problem is, Cloning previously was about the only way TO Revive and now it ISN'T. You have a LOT of revivification methodologies at your finger tips and all of them objectrively faster and better then Cloning. Defibrillator an then Cryo, bam, you live again. Is the body too old to Defib? Does it have really low damage or can you get it low enough? Strange reagent and you walk once more.

 

Cloning is a hassle, it's a hassle by design for the clone-ee and risky because you're as vulnerable as a newborn baby in there. The OTHER methods are not.

Those are where your problems lie, power creep in the form of multiple forms of reviving people, in much faster and better ways then the originally "Only" form of cloning. (I discount cyborging as reviving, because that crewman is still dead for all antag purposes, they are a new cyborg unit, who they were is deceased.)

I suppose that cloning per se is only a representative for what I'm really getting at in this proposal, which is the claim that resurrection in general ought to be removed. We mentioned cyborgification and brain transplants already, which I oppose for players who have died. I would also oppose the use of strange reagent to revive dead players. I made an exception for CPR and defibrillation because of their limited usage and for the sake of realism, however I would support a nerf for defibrillation.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

In terms of your suggestions for leaving the brain after extraction from a corpse lifeless, I'm not entirely certain how that would work, mainly because the body procs death, then the brain pops out, at least from what it seems, otherwise, removing the ability for a dead player who has had their brain extracted from ever returning to the round, or in general, somebody who died being unfixable unless caught relatively quickly is definitely going to be a huge turn off for a number of people.

 

Be aware, while this probably would stimulate more RP in the sense of self-preservation, it would only stimulate RP for the people who would actively enjoy that type of RP, otherwise, the new functionality or outright removal might cause people to flat out leave the server. In addition, a lack of cloning would likely lead to a much more blatant traitor if they have the death objective and a much more reserved traitor with anything else, especially with our current treatment of antagonists and how they can complete their objectives (not to mention the validhunter culture that, while bannable, is nowhere near gone).

 

Removal of the ability for brains to be removed from corpses would force revival via defib to be a rush for time, and that's without the plans you have for nerfing that element as well due to pre-existing corpse and organ rot. If medbay isn't at its peak at all times, chances are, anybody who suffers lethal damage is going to stay dead for an entire round, with the other changes mentioned, not specifically the original topic of simply removing cloning. This would cut living pop down severely over a round, as well as cause things to become increasingly sluggish over time due to the rising body count from the common lethal hazards (Shocks, hostile mobs, hostile players, accidents, explosions, infections, viruses, space exposure, poisons, etc.), at least without constant medical vigilance.

 

In general, keeping players out of the round is going to keep more players leaving the game or generally being more bored than they already would be in deadchat, even with the ability to alt tab, watch a video, or do something else. Keeping the game moving is an incredibly important part, especially the speed at which it moves, and I personally believe that this would cause the game to move too slowly, causing players to leave the current rounds or slow production drastically due to lack of taking risks, or flat out leaving the server due to a confliction of playstyles.

 

[Kirbyroth]

So you basically want to remove all forms of reviving that not gonna win you any votes and basically gonna kill server population. With this the only means of getting back into round is becoming a drone or other creature or pai.

[Vivalas]

I agree defibbing should be nerfed. I like the idea and sound effects of the defibs, but they are really overpowered. Cloning really isn't that easy or streamlined. It takes time and is a hassle. I like the way defibs work in colonial marines really.

[Midaychi]

 

You could make it so that defib is the only way to bring someone back mentally, and that the brain decays too fast after the cpr timer ends to be useful due to a super space-disease or something.

 

Then you could port this, but make cloners unable to actually process mental patterns due to some sort of galactic lawsuit about clones and space ethics.

 

https://github.com/Baystation12/Baystation12/pull/12576

 

The only way to come back after your defib timer runs out is to have had your echo backed up beforehand, and then your memories only extend to when you last backed up.

 

[fludd12]

Resleeving honestly sounds like a tedious system, really. Also, enforced CMD has never really worked for this server, and I doubt many people would be willing to go along with it.

[MindLeaker]

 

The issues you raised with reference to IPCs and cyborgification could be resolved by having brains (both posibrains and human brains) become lifeless after death. Brains which are extracted via surgery while the patient is still alive would be eligible for cyborgification, while brains removed from corpses/debris-piles would be dead and lifeless.

 

Thing is, I can (and many other Surgeons, too, probably) can already see ways of getting around that using other mechanics, this is a very bad thing as it means those more familiar with obscure medbay ideas would have ways to heal others that ordinary doctors haven't access to. Not to mention, cloning is definitely the worst method of revival available, Strange Reagent, defibs and other interesting methods completely overpower cloning in almost every factor.

 

All in all, removing this crucial a part of the game is nigh-impossible, because other mechanics built after it's addition never factored in the idea of it ever being removed. That's not even factoring in all methods of resurrection being removed, which I can 100% promise you is impossible, because there are so many ways of doing so, many of which don't even require Medbay.

 

As for forced CMD, our server is Med-RP, not HRP. Making that radical of a change to something that's been the same for years now would likely piss off a great deal of our playerbase.

 

At this time, I agree that defibrillation needs to be revised, but this radical of a change is simply too heavy-handed at this point in the game's lifespan

 

[necaladun]

 

I agree with defibbing, etc, being overpowered. I say nerf'm from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

 

However removing cloning - and other resurrections in general - would be a massive change that has never been intended. The entire game has been built around cloning as one of the core concepts and the effect on balance would be huge. Everything we can think of here is nothing on the actual effect - things we never expect would appear for quite some time.

 

As for the RP effect on mortality and bravery, I see it as a fairly transhuman reaction and quite interesting. If I knew cloning was so easily done, I doubt I'd be so inclined to wear my seatbelt. After a few dozen deaths, I imagine I'd get used to it.

 

[Kirbyroth]

Think of medical fees though sure cloning isn't cheap by itself and then factor in the medical needs afterwards.

[liran424]

Bottom line is we're not removing cloning, defib need a nerf though I don't see why and cloning needs a little bit of love.

[agentCDE]

 

Hm. I can understand the desire to NERF cloning and defibrillators. The first thing to come to mind is making any back-from-the-dead experience require some kind of serious, labor intensive medical care immediately afterwards. Like, a fresh clone won't just be perfectly fine after only a dunk in cryo, but will require a geneticist to untangle the ball of chistmas tree lights that is their DNA, and perhaps surgery to repair / finish any improperly formed features or organs. Defibrillation could mean the patient needs surgery and drugs to fully recover. Maybe particularly bad cases could require even more work, like prosthetics or a pacemaker from robotics for irreversible limb or heart damage. Heck, add a treadmill and some other gear and we could have some physical therapy options post limb reattachment, defibrillation, cloning, etc. I'd suggest letting the psychiatrist take over PT whenever one is available. Gives them something to do, gives the patients company that wants to RP, and gets the psycho out of their office!

 

Naturally these consequences would start off severe like the current brain and gene damage from cloning with basic parts in the clone pod, but would be greatly lessened with upgrades. Perhaps defibs (especially the CMOs compact defib) could also be upgraded. Better scanner and capacitor to lessen the strain on the patient? And of course a better battery would give it more charges. Though, the real determinants of side effects from defibrillation should be time passed since death, and if defibrillation is used repeatedly on the same patient. (I.e. zapping over and over to try to keep them alive long enough to cure massive organ damage, blood loss, poisoning, etc.)

 

Maybe there could be even stranger effects... perhaps mass death and cloning could draw the attention of Something From Beyond, and a visitor to the Beyond could bring back a passenger... Cheat death enough and someone else will want to try it too. Don't worry, they just want to be alive again too! ...or maybe the psych is right, you're half crazy and hearing things, and need a mannitol+haloperidol prescription.

 

Ok, this looks like it got a lot longer than intended. TL;DR: coming back from the dead should have semi-permanent medical (and spooky spiritual) consequences.

 

[Bradstein]

 

Put simply, I don't think cloning should be removed because it's integral to SS13 as we know it. People take such risks because they know they can be cloned, or brought back in one way or another. I don't think the game, and the way people play it would be the same without cloning, and that's bad.

 

What I do think should happen is making the Clone Memory Disorder compulsory, so people don't remember anything about the circumstances of their deaths. As I understand it, that's optional currently.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

What I do think should happen is making the Clone Memory Disorder compulsory, so people don't remember anything about the circumstances of their deaths. As I understand it, that's optional currently.

also, enforced CMD has never really worked for this server, and I doubt many people would be willing to go along with it.

As stated above, we did have a period where you were unable to remember, then we had period in which you were able to. No CMD has worked out for the better in most cases, and netted us more players than we would have had with CMD heavily enforced. From an administrative and player standpoint, the hassle of enforcement coupled with the complete inability to prevent continual death (without violating CMD), would prove to be incredibly frustrating over time, especially since I, as an admin, wouldn't feel comfortable forcing people to roleplay a certain way in a certain circumstance, where I've never had to do anything like that in two full years. It just wouldn't feel right.

 

[unmovedmover]

 

What I do think should happen is making the Clone Memory Disorder compulsory, so people don't remember anything about the circumstances of their deaths. As I understand it, that's optional currently.

I want to come out against forced CMD, for, while it would answer some of my concern pertaining to the limiting of antagonist strategies, it places onerous expectations on both the players and admins. Players would be expected to divorce their personal knowledge of antagonists from their in-character knowledge. Anyone who is familiar with the temptation to use information obtained while "screen-looking" in a split-screen console game will understand how challenging this expectation will be to uphold. When players inevitably succumb to using illicit information, admins will have to spend their time cleaning up the mess. In a medium-RP environment, this does not seem feasible. I would prefer to influence player behavior by altering the game mechanics so that certain incentives, disincentives are created.