Space Law: Destruction of Private Property

[Love-To-Hug]

 

I do not like posting on the forum. I have severe anxiety about posting on public forums. Last time I was active I had a anxiety attack and deleted all my posts. However I was told by Tully if I wanted something changed about it, I'd have to. So, here goes.

 

Here's what happened, the Chaplain, Kichi, had a corgi based religion going. He had painstakingly attached a corgi to every seat of his chapel and had corgi flags to either side of the podium. It was a very cute setup.

 

I was playing NanoTrasen Representative, just sort of pacing the station, when I see the hulked out Geneticist killing corgis while the chaplain is screaming. I try to stop him, but he's immune to stun. Security and the RD is called in. He's mutadoned, and arrested, and I thought the whole situation was over with - I even headed down to the chapel with a full bottle of Strange Reagent to resurrect all the pups.

 

However, things immediately hit a brick wall when it came time for sentencing. As it turns out, while Space Law defends the theft of private property (as per the Robbery law) it does not actually defend destruction of the same property. So we could not brig the Geneticist at all. This led the Geneticist getting released and organizing a sort of 'corgi lynch mob' with other greytiders to go and harass the Chaplain more.

 

I contacted CentComm on this issue, however I was not given any suggestion other than termination, which doesn't really stop the person, if anything it encourages them to do it more out of spite. I suggested Robbery as a possible punishment since you are essentially 'taking' the property by ensuring no one can use it anymore, but I was told No on that as well.

 

This is a fringe case as there are not many ways to destroy PRIVATE property in the game, so a whole new law might be excessive. I just suggest Robbery be extended to 'Steal and/or destroy items from another's person.'

 

Edited June 9, 2016 by Guest

[Keroman]

 

I would agree with changing the definition of Theft to include pets that have been claimed using a collar. It already applies to pAIs as far as I'm aware so why not pets too?

 

In the situation you're describing it sounds like the corgis were part of the Chaplain's work and so you might be able to levy a Vandalism or Trespassing charge (there's precedent for kicking people out of public areas - the Bartender can declare the bar off limits to people causing trouble) or potentially even Petty Theft as long as Security was in agreement that the keeping the corgis were part of the Chaplain's job.

 

In all honestly greytide is just something that you gotta deal with sometimes. As was said in the Discord chat if it happens over multiple rounds and you're pretty sure it's the same person ahelp it as it may be considered metagrudging.

 

One thing to keep in mind, too, is that while players that do that kind of stuff but not necessarily breaking Space Law or SOP are still very much cultivating a reputation as a shit player which is something that can and will come around to bite them in the ass eventually.

 

Side Note: This thread might go better in the Suggestions forum. Maybe an Admin could move it on over?

 

[Love-To-Hug]

Please do not move this to the suggestions forum.

[Regen]

 

But.. The Chapel isn't private property, it's all owned by Nanotrasen.

 

If anything the chaplain can kick him out and security can arrest him for minor trespassing and creating a workplace hazard, he did abuse genetics to kill dogs

 

[OffRoad99]

 

I was the Security Cyborg named C.A.L.I.D.O.N

 

Now that we are not Roleplaying, I can finally say that I perfectly agree with you, Love-To-Hug.

As a Cyborg bound to the AI and with the Corporate Lawset, I was kinda forced to let the slaughter of the Corgi be unpunished. Those Corgi were not station property.

The Space Law does not include any article that allows a Security Officer to detain someone for destroying private property, a small yet important thing that needs to be included as soon as possible.

 

In reply to Regen. As far as I remember, the Chaplain did not make a specific request to kick out the Geneticist from his Chapel....and that's all I know because I lost connection immediately afterwards.

 

[Love-To-Hug]

 

But.. The Chapel isn't private property, it's all owned by Nanotrasen.

 

If anything the chaplain can kick him out and security can arrest him for minor trespassing and creating a workplace hazard, he did abuse genetics to kill dogs

I was told by Jenkins no Space Laws were being broken.

 

[Bradstein]

I agree with Love-to-hug. Although I participated in the corgi killing with a flamethrower, it made no sense that I was only locked up for possession of a dangerous weapon when I single handedly burned about 10 corgis alive and destroyed much of the flooring there. I do think there actually needs to be a law added to protect the pets/animals on the station (that aren't monkeys or food). As for destruction of private property, as was pointed out, nothing on the station actually belongs to that crew member except for shit bought in vendors and what not, however, there still needs to be punishment for destroying the property regardless. I find it hard to believe that NT would approve of people charging into a chapel and damaging their shit as well as killing innocent corgis, ayy!

[MickyD47]

An animal cruelty law might be something to consider too.

[Bigtimetripod]

 

An animal cruelty law might be something to consider too.

 

 

 

Oh god the horror when RPing as Space EPA or WWF agent becomes a thing... Science would be put out of job, starting with xenobio.

 

[Bradstein]

No it wouldn't. It's simple really, exclude the animals that would be used for Scientific or food purposes from the law.

[Fox McCloud]

 

This is already covered under vandalism and trespass (if the Chaplain tells him to leave and not come back for what he's done)---potentially petty theft too (since the individual is taking something from you with the intent that you're never getting it back).

 

Animal Cruelty law was kinda dumb and led to a lot of officers arresting for no other reason than they could when players weren't generally impacted. "CE killed Poly; arrest him for animal cruelty" (yes, stuff like this happened, a lot).

 

The only law worse than the animal cruelty law was insulting an officer/head of staff.

 

[necaladun]

 

Very much what fox said. If a flamethrower was used then creating a workplace hazard is also up there.

 

Vandalism not covering personal possessions seems a complete oversight - destruction of them rather than theft of them should not be legal.

 

It's a pretty niche case though. There's very little on station that is not owned by NT.

 

[thebeoni]

 

This is already covered under vandalism

 

Exactly. Its like destroying station property so he should have been briged for vandalism.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

Animal Cruelty law was kinda dumb and led to a lot of officers arresting for no other reason than they could when players weren't generally impacted. "CE killed Poly; arrest him for animal cruelty" (yes, stuff like this happened, a lot).

 

The only law worse than the animal cruelty law was insulting an officer/head of staff.

Cannot agree with both those statements, how did officers arrest for no reason? There is no better situation to use the Animal Cruelty law as with station pets. Also it's bad enough that players are allowed to kill any random "player controlled npcs" for any reason. I am very pleased with Animal Cruelty still be part of Vandalism, since it give at least a small reason to players not to kill any random npc.

 

Attionally i think the removal of insulting officers law was a bad decision. The relation between sec and the crew is bad enough and instead of enforcing sec to be less shit, we just allowed the other side to be equally as toxic.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

Attionally i think the removal of insulting officers law was a bad decision. The relation between sec and the crew is bad enough and instead of enforcing sec to be less shit, we just allowed the other side to be equally as toxic.

Grey TideDudeThing says, "Officer, your beret looks odd."

McShitcurity says, "INSULTING AN OFFICER!"

BATON BATON BATON BANG PEW TASE BOOM

Not shitting you, that kind of crap would happen when we had it.

And if someone is really harassing you THAT much when you're a security officer (And somehow not breaking a law), nobody is going to beat you down for a simple flash to the face and walking away.

I agree with the rest of what you said, but we don't need to re-add insulting an officer.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

Attionally i think the removal of insulting officers law was a bad decision. The relation between sec and the crew is bad enough and instead of enforcing sec to be less shit, we just allowed the other side to be equally as toxic.

Grey TideDudeThing says, "Officer, your beret looks odd."

McShitcurity says, "INSULTING AN OFFICER!"

BATON BATON BATON BANG PEW TASE BOOM

I can see your point but that's the security officer just being shit and to be honest, examples like this are the only argument allways brought up when defending removing "insulting officer law". For me this basicly means we removed a law only because people abused it, i cannot see how applying such a logic to the development of an RP game is healthy.

 

Edit: words are difficult

 

[Love-To-Hug]

 

This is already covered under vandalism and trespass (if the Chaplain tells him to leave and not come back for what he's done)---potentially petty theft too (since the individual is taking something from you with the intent that you're never getting it back).

 

Animal Cruelty law was kinda dumb and led to a lot of officers arresting for no other reason than they could when players weren't generally impacted. "CE killed Poly; arrest him for animal cruelty" (yes, stuff like this happened, a lot).

 

The only law worse than the animal cruelty law was insulting an officer/head of staff.

The guy who writes most of Space Law (Tully/Jenkins) told me otherwise.

 

[TullyBBurnalot]

 

As it is currently worded, no, Vandalism does not cover killing random animals. It covers Departmental Pets (like Ian, Pun-Pun and Runtime).

 

That said, as Neca mentioned, it would not be difficult to add a "all animals killed" thing to Vandalism.

 

[TullyBBurnalot]

 

Following discussion, this happened:

 

 

[jedr]

 

Might I suggest adding a "rabid animal" clause. Because now dunking poly for stealing all your shit is vandalism, or am I reading this wrong?

 

That way peaceful animals are protected by the law, but shitters who drag arrested people away/steal valuable shit/etc... can be dealt with swiftly and privately. Or some kind of responsibility thing? Where you're responsible for the actions of your pet? Just throwing around ideas here

 

[TullyBBurnalot]

"Non-Hostile"