Making the RD loyalty implanted/non-antag slot.

[davidchan]

 

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/4641

 

Not my PR or Idea, but I think it's definitely worth bringing it to the forums, as not everyone visits the hub and a change of this sort would radically alter the game for lots of people.

 

I'm personally for the idea, though I do wonder if a loyalty implant may be a step too far, RD has a lot of power at their finger tips just from the wide access their job gives them, without much responsibility at in terms of whats expected from an RD in a usual game round.

 

Thoughts?

 

[Farya]

 

Research director is supposed to be the most important person aboard Cyberiad - Research station. So its obvious that candidate for that post will be checked even more seriously that HoS or any of security members. People tend to forget that RD is director not Scientist+ and his job is to keep manchild called scientist in line so they would not accidently or intentionaly blow the station up during their crazy research.

 

So +1

 

[Coldflame]

 

RD antag sucks, you can read my more in-depth opinion on this on the PR's page itself.

 

+1 from me.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

+1 RD antags are just...

no.

 

[Machofish]

 

I'm surprised people are actually supporting this. As some of the toughest and most memorable antags I've encountered are scientists and RDs, it provides a good change of pace to the more mundane antags who don't have much power outside from their basic antag abilities.

 

As SS13 takes place on a research station, I believe it is only right that the RD can potentially rock a round off its tracks if he/she has the right knowledge. The one place where I'd argue that RD antags are 'too powerful' would be during cult/shadowling, but I'd argue that's more due to how difficult it is for sec to cut through the red tape needed to investigate outside the station's z-level (the research outpost, mining outpost, engie outpost, gateway cults, abandoned white ship cults, etc.) rather than a problem specifically connected to the RD. In regards to shadowlings in science, that's more due to the fact that science has so many fractured sub-departments that rarely 'need' to interact with each other. SS13 is a game built around establishing a slight atmosphere of paranoia and mistrust - I think antag RDs (and head-of-staff antags in general) are something that could be countered with greater scrutiny from security ICly.

 

I haven't been around the server for a few days - were there a few rounds in particular where antag RDs have been casually steamrolling the station, or is this suggestion coming from more of a general consensus?

 

[Coldflame]

 

I'm surprised people are actually supporting this. As some of the toughest and most memorable antags I've encountered are scientists and RDs, it provides a good change of pace to the more mundane antags who don't have much power outside from their basic antag abilities.

 

As SS13 takes place on a research station, I believe it is only right that the RD can potentially rock a round off its tracks if he/she has the right knowledge. The one place where I'd argue that RD antags are 'too powerful' would be during cult/shadowling, but I'd argue that's more due to how difficult it is for sec to cut through the red tape needed to investigate outside the station's z-level (the research outpost, mining outpost, engie outpost, gateway cults, abandoned white ship cults, etc.) rather than a problem specifically connected to the RD. In regards to shadowlings in science, that's more due to the fact that science has so many fractured sub-departments that rarely 'need' to interact with each other. SS13 is a game built around establishing a slight atmosphere of paranoia and mistrust - I think antag RDs (and head-of-staff antags in general) are something that could be countered with greater scrutiny from security ICly.

 

I haven't been around the server for a few days - were there a few rounds in particular where antag RDs have been casually steamrolling the station, or is this suggestion coming from more of a general consensus?

 

The PR is the result of antag RD being straight-up overpowered. They've got a tendency (specifically in the last few months) powergaming to excess and massacring the station to the full extent allowed by their objectives in uninteresting and unfair ways, reaching the point where recently RD antags (and science in general) began using the ExperiMENTOR to duplicate telecrystals and use them to purchase huge amounts of firepower from their uplinks, although TC can't be duped anymore.

 

RD antags generally go about their objectives in ways that are borderline impossible for the crew to counter (systematically using telescience to teleport people onto cult runes/plasma fires, stacking all the genetic powers in combination with huge amounts of equipment).

 

[alexpkeaton]

 

+1

 

RD antags can wreak tremendous havoc, and during cult or shadowling rounds, an RD antag can and has effectively cut off the whole of Science from the rest of the station. As Captain, I once had to have a full sec detail escort my handpicked replacement RD (original was cult, was still on the loose and had converted most of the department) to Science to fix the mess.

 

Sure, RD antags are challenging foes, but they have incredible access and resources that can cripple (or subvert) the AI, borgs and telecomms, quickly, sometimes with the press of a button.

 

[Machofish]

 

 

The PR is the result of antag RD being straight-up overpowered. They've got a tendency (specifically in the last few months) powergaming to excess and massacring the station to the full extent allowed by their objectives in uninteresting and unfair ways, reaching the point where recently RD antags (and science in general) began using the ExperiMENTOR to duplicate telecrystals and use them to purchase huge amounts of firepower from their uplinks, although TC can't be duped anymore.

 

RD antags generally go about their objectives in ways that are borderline impossible for the crew to counter (systematically using telescience to teleport people onto cult runes/plasma fires, stacking all the genetic powers in combination with huge amounts of equipment).

 

This does clear up quite a lot. By the sound of it, I would again shift to argue that it's more important to address what items in particular make RD antags nigh-unstoppable. I'm a little surprised to see that telescience still exists in the server code, considering that the flaws related to it existed on such a fundamental level. (Personally I'd like to hear the justification for why telescience hasn't been taken out of the code yet, but that's for another thread.) By the sound of it, even if the RD role was changed to be a non-antag role, that wouldn't fix the basic problems relating to the very particular pieces of low-effort, high-yield science equipment that make antag RDs so unstoppable: there would still be the possibility of a basic science antag getting access to such equipment and exploiting it in a similar fashion (albeit with marginally more difficulty).

 

I realize that the RD also has access to a slew of other tricks to potentially flatten the station - like taking the AI upload board from tech storage for an easy AI hack or using Tcomms to prevent an assassination target from calling for help, amongst other things. It feels like certain problems like these could be fixed by demanding a greater amount of accountability from the RD ICly - like questioning why an RD is making deathchems, or why is the RD pumping themselves with genetics powers, or why they're printing excessive amounts of illegal tech from the protolathe, etc.

 

As an aside, this would probably result in a lot of negligent and/or powergaming RDs getting demoted as well. Frankly, I'm OK with that.

 

What I'm trying to say is that it sounds like this problem is being approached as "RD antags are too powerful because of XYZ, therefore we should remove antag RDs", whereas I feel the reaction should be "RD antags are too powerful because of XYZ, therefore we should see what is wrong about XYZ and change it."

 

[FreeStylaLT]

As I listed my extensive arguments on the PR, I do not support this change. It is an unwarranted nerf to antags, both science and not. Yes, Science is powerful, but so is the crew in most rounds these days, given extensive cooperation and genetics. I do not see anything inherently wrong with pitting a potentially powerful antagonistic RD vs a powerful cooperative crew, as it is nowadays for the most part.

[Citinited]

The problem isn't RDs being antags so much as nobody ever checking what science and genetics is up to.

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

The problem isn't RDs being antags so much as nobody ever checking what science and genetics is up to.

That sounds kinda backwards to me, issnt' the RD the one supposed to check on Science?

 

[Kyet]

 

 

Voted no for several reasons:

 

1) RD is not uniquely deserving of a loyalty implant. HoP is actually in a stronger position, because they can easily all-access themselves as a traitor and take anything from anywhere. Not to mention, they start with armor and an egun. Not only are they NOT loyalty implanted, but they were in the past and it was removed. I don't see a good reason to do the exact opposite to RD as was done to HoP.

 

2) Antags are already pretty tame on Paradise. I would argue, too tame. If people who play antag RDs seem to be so much stronger than other antags, perhaps that's because (A) more experienced players tend to play Science, and (B) most antags are pretty weak. If you want to reduce a power discrepancy, buff other antags rather than nerfing the RD.

 

3) Most of the times I see an RD antag, they're not using their department to further their antaggy goals by giving orders to subordinates. They're usually operating mostly alone.

 

4) Most of the time, the RD is not antag. Having a loyalty implant by default could turn him into a super-validhunter, with the total trust of Command since they know he can't be an antag. Imagine how that would work out! Sure, it would eliminate antag RDs, but in exchange non-antag RDs would get a HUGE buff, and non-antag RDs are a LOT more common than antag RDs! This PR will cause more problems than it solves.

 

5) There is a general campaign to nerf Science, which is totally misguided. Much of the nerfs to Science focus on removing the potential for fun, because people are jealous that Science is more fun to play than most other departments. IMHO the solution is to make other departments MORE fun, not making Science less fun. I will say that twice, since it is so important: instead of campaigning to remove every bit of fun in Science, start thinking about what could be done to ADD fun to other departments. People keep advocating for "one more nerf", but it never seems to be enough, and the end result is just a net loss of fun for the game.

 

6) The problem of "heads cryoing if not antag at roundstart" can be addressed in other ways. Also it applies to many jobs other than RD, so I don't see why RD should be singled out because of it. RD at least had valid things to do as a non-antag. There are some jobs (viro, atmos tech) which have very little to do when not antags.

 

7) I am very skeptical about any change suggested to counter "powergaming". It seems to me that "powergaming" is just a charge levied against people who play the game "too well", ie they know how to use the game mechanics and don't get taken down by the first taser shot. Its rather like calling someone a neer-do-well. It prejudices you against them whilst actually meaning very little.

 

8) This is going to have side-effects. For example, hindering cult rounds. Cult often grows in science and having it overseen by an implanted person with probable access to weapons (due to more trust) is going to affect more people than just the RD. We already have a problem with to many long/boring rounds due to antags never getting a foothold. I don't like the idea of making that problem worse.

 

 

More generally:

A) Lots of heads don't manage their departments very well. RD is not special in this regard. Science has a bunch of people working on dangerous stuff. It is hard to manage. If you want it to be better managed, consider suggesting something that would make it easier for RDs to manage. The door remote is a good example - that feature makes it quicker/easier for RDs (and the other heads) to manage their departments. You could also approach it from a policy standpoint - making it easier for RDs to have scientists who are going nuts kicked out of science.

B) Telescience doesn't strike me as impossible to balance. Create some object that blocks teleportation within X radius of it. Put one of them in the brig. Put another in gravity generator so it covers Captain's Office, etc. Or, simply alter the telescience console so it requires an ID with the relevant access to teleport from/to an area. E.g: a command ID to teleport from/to command areas.

C) Much less focus on nerfing Science/RD and much more focus on ways of making other jobs/antag roles more fun / interesting. Many, perhaps even most of the rounds I've seen today have had the antags doing very, very little. It makes for long, boring rounds.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

As with many such problems, i think this lies in the community we created and not the game mechanics. Very few people take their job serious and thereby it's near to impossible to stop any antags without going on a validhunting spree or otherwise abuse game mechanics. It's not that i support those haviours but rather that i can understand them.

 

Currently it is mostly impossible to be serious about your job, especially if you are head of staff, because you will be stone walled everywhere since you pretty much stand alone with your opinion. As long as doing what you want is generally accepted by the community you can nerf antags to hell, but you won't change anything. You can't propperly distinguish many "normal" players from an antag because they almost behave the same, the only difference is that one actually kills and the other doesn't.

 

[Citinited]

 

That sounds kinda backwards to me, issnt' the RD the one supposed to check on Science?

 

Yes, they should. The RD should also be put under some scrutiny.

 

[Renomaki]

 

The problem isn't RDs being antags so much as nobody ever checking what science and genetics is up to.

That sounds kinda backwards to me, issnt' the RD the one supposed to check on Science?

 

Even as captain, when I ask the RD and CMO to check genetics in check, they never do, and you end up with genetics going overboard, as they always do.

 

Even if the RD was loyalty implanted, it will only be useful for so long before you begin to wonder why you bother... Antag or not, he is gonna go goofin off.

 

[SpaceTimeNow]

I mean it's true that the RD was allways more of the king of nerds instead of a supervisor and that worked fine for quite a while. Security and other department head of staff had more downtime where they could just do a quick check via cameras or in person so science did not get out of hand. Since the station is so chaotic and the resulting degredation of everything security, this balance kinda fell flat.

[Doukan]

 

It's not very thematic IMO.

Everyone else with a loyalty implant is associated with sec in some way, doesn't make much sense for the civilians to be packing them as well, may as well dish them out to the CE and CMO since they have black hole/infinite sedative access.

 

The problem with RD antags being 2robust is because too few people question them and by the time they're obviously antagging it's too late, they're a member of command and get away with shit they shouldn't purely by virtue of their authoritah.

 

Seriously, just have someone sitting on the cameras spy on them for a while, it's pretty much common practice to do it to the AI by now, may as well go full NSA on the heads too, no excuse not to since we got that snazzy new camera system.

 

Or you know, ask IA to do an audit, god knows they need something to do.

 

[SigholtStarsong]

 

This needs to happen. Antag RDs are, by far and away, the least interesting and most frustrating antagonist in the game because they will /always/ powergame to obscenely rediculous levels.

 

For example, the round at 6:00PM CDT, 6/25. RD literally murderboned half the station and an entire ERT.

 

It makes the round entirely unenjoyable when you're up against an effectively unkillable, CNS rebooter implanted, meth chewing RD.

 

[ImTheGreatCoward2]

Actually I find Antag RnD funny...

[KingPhilipIII]

 

When I first saw this thread, I was originally on board for the loyalty implant, but after reading through, my opinion switched. It's true that it isn't the RD in itself, but the lack of restrictions on what Science can do so easily. A traitor scientist basically has all the same abilities as a traitor RD except they may need to emag their way around, or they may get questioned when wandering around.

 

-1

 

[Rumiluntti]

 

It's not the RD, it's the whole damn department that has enjoyed massive powercreep that nobody stopped before we had this monstrosity.

RD just happens to be the commander of the most powerful department in the game.

 

[SomanB]

 

It's not the RD, it's the whole damn department that has enjoyed massive powercreep that nobody stopped before we had this monstrosity.

RD just happens to be the commander of the most powerful department in the game.

 

 

I agree 100% with this statement. The department, in and of itself, is the problem. The RD just has access to every part of it. combat mechs, gund, bombs, gentics, a secret base, and a simple mob army, all at the tips of his fingertips. I've personally gotten to the point that I tell people to just let the tator RD HAVE his greentext if they're powergaming it to the max. Woo, you won the round with what was effectively god mode. Good job. If that makes you proud, rock on.

 

 

Now, here's my (admittedly drastic) fixes to science, to bring the RD in line with other head antags (and buff those other head antags a smidge too).

 

Take Robotics away from science. They're not doing SCIENCE, they're BUILDING things. Put them under the King and/or Queen of Building, the CE.

Take Genetics away from science. Give it to the CMO. Finding the RD off in his hideyhole with genetics machines should spark huge suspicion, not "whelp".

Take the GUNS away from R and D. Give that to, gasp, Sec! Maybe even make "Gunsmith/Armorer" a karma style job.

 

Leave everything else to Sci. Leave the CAPABILITY to pull the Big Three listed above with sci, via circuit imprinters and building the gear.

 

Where Sci, and the RD specifically have an issue, is with "suspect level". Yes, as CE, I can build me a genetics system and get all the powers, boards are right there in tech storage. Same for mechs, R and D guns, TTVs, subverting the AI, you name it. Thing is, unless I'm really good at hiding it, stepping outside my "world" as CE will net a ton of suspicion, if not outright firing and validsalad if caught.

 

Sci should face the same levels of "suspect" for certain things. As is, their world is so broad (and the RD having access to all of it), that noone will blink

 

[MickyD47]

 

This needs to happen. Antag RDs are, by far and away, the least interesting and most frustrating antagonist in the game because they will /always/ powergame to obscenely rediculous levels.

 

For example, the round at 6:00PM CDT, 6/25. RD literally murderboned half the station and an entire ERT.

 

It makes the round entirely unenjoyable when you're up against an effectively unkillable, CNS rebooter implanted, meth chewing RD.

If this is the round I think it was I reported that this RD in question had cable cuffs at the start of the round. Of course no one questioned this for some reason. I think this is one of those examples as to why people need to hold RDs accountable more.

 

At first I would have agreed with the loyalty implant but after reading what others have said I dont think so now. We just need to start keeping RDs in check and stop giving them a free pass.

 

[GelatinousGlob]

 

It's not the RD, it's the whole damn department that has enjoyed massive powercreep that nobody stopped before we had this monstrosity.

RD just happens to be the commander of the most powerful department in the game.

 

Thats a big reason why I don't understand the ID lock for RnD console. Scientists already had immense power over every other department and in responce they prevent other people, even people with emags, from stealing shit from science? They still have shutters and the machine is locked! No one can even use or build the RnD boards in tech storage because its ID locked anyways which is stupid as shit. Engineers don't even get ore machine access, another things scientists get anything they want.

 

RnD position is overpowered with command status on top of full chemistry, xenobio, bombs, every tech on the station, genetics powers.

 

The solution is to break up science, not just limit one person within science though. RnD can stay civilian if science is fixed because he doesn't have much more power than a general scientist overall anyways.

 

[Da Dman234]

 

It's not the RD, it's the whole damn department that has enjoyed massive powercreep that nobody stopped before we had this monstrosity.

RD just happens to be the commander of the most powerful department in the game.

 

Thats a big reason why I don't understand the ID lock for RnD console. Scientists already had immense power over every other department and in responce they prevent other people, even people with emags, from stealing shit from science? They still have shutters and the machine is locked! No one can even use or build the RnD boards in tech storage because its ID locked anyways which is stupid as shit. Engineers don't even get ore machine access, another things scientists get anything they want.

 

RnD position is overpowered with command status on top of full chemistry, xenobio, bombs, every tech on the station, genetics powers.

 

The solution is to break up science, not just limit one person within science though. RnD can stay civilian if science is fixed because he doesn't have much more power than a general scientist overall anyways.

 

I agree that someone with an emag should be able to unlock the RnD console, but it's locked so your good ol pal greytide mcshitter doesn't bust in when no ones there and waste all the materials.

 

Also, for the science breaking up thing, that's a topic I've given quite a bit of thought about, and already tried to open a PR for. At the end up the day RnD is just too strong as it currently is, because no matter what given the time they're able to replicate everything else science can do via building machines. Unless someone chooses to code something in to help with this splitting science isn't feasible.