How do you guys feel about the general direction of Paradise

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

Hey, due to the nature of the topic this is probably goint to be a lot of people with different opinons but i hope we can keep this civil. I have stated my discontent with a bunch of changes that have been made in the past and i just want to know how other people feel about this. I want to make clear that this topic is not about any individual change but the whole "design direction" of paradise.

 

First I want to explain why i started playing SS13 in the first place. I will summarize it in 3 points:

1. The complexity of the game and how you can dive deep into all the different mechanics in the game. There has been no other game for me where i could say that i played the game for years and that there are still parts that i have still not fully explored.

 

2. The focus on surviving a shift in a very dangerous enviroment and all the awesome situations this created.

 

3. SS13 being a game that involves a good part of RP which allows you to play a divers character that works a touch shift on a space station.

 

 

Now i want to address each point and explain why i am not happy with the direction Paradise took.

 

1. Complexity:

It's not nessearily the case that features have been removed but there have been many additions which many people probably would call "ease of use" mechanics or something along those lines. Each one on it's own might not seem to bad, or might actually look like a good idea, but if you look at the bigger picture then all the deep dive mechanics have become pointless unnecessary clutter/fluff.

 

Example Engineering

I could make a case for most departments but in this case i choose Engineering/ Atmos as an example because i think the impact there has been the most severe. I think it all started with introducing Linda and the very strict rules against the use of atmos/ gases for traitors. The usecases for releasing plasma, N2O and the sorts are practically nonexistent. There are very few instances where you would not just be outright banned and even if the rules would allow you to, then you wouldn't use it anyway because atmospherics poses no real threat since linda is just atrociously slow.

 

This basicly means that a atmos tech has no real value outside atmospherics because everyone can replace like 2 floortiles or a window, which is about the extent of damage that linda allows. So now you are supposed to watch over all this complicated atmos equipment in atmospherics, right? No, because atmospherics comes prebuilt in such a way that it in no point in time it requires any changes to the atmos systems. The default configuration is designed to handle everything (maybe there might still be a few valves you have to turn up once, but that's beside the point)! There is a active waste-vent to the outside of the station and a for all intense and purposes a unlimited amount of mixed air availiable. There is no point to optimise a system that is infinite. Your job as an Atmos Tech is one big lie, on paradise you have all those complicated mechanics which are ultimatly completely useless.

 

The same idea basicly applies to Engineers, the engine is protected by sever rules so you set it and forget it. The engine also effectively supplies a infinite amount of energy so your job is done. Congratulations you are like 3 (extremly repeditive) minutes more useful as the atmos tech.

 

I don't say it was perfect when atmos and engineering had to fix atmos griefer damage every other shift and rebuilt half the station, but engineering and atmos was acutally needed to maintain / rebuilt the station and thereby was a critical part of the station. I trade this any day for what we have right now.

 

2. Focus on survival:

Applying what i said to the first point, when i enter a shift i no longer think about: will i manage to survive this shift? There might be the off chance of nukies or a specifc antag that has to kill you, but besides that there is nothing. You are protected by the server rules and since all enviromental danger we once had is now nonexistent, survival is practically a given! I think this is extremly boring and drags on many rounds much longer than they have any right to be.

 

3. RP:

This ties in to my last point, the RP. The antags are either captured or complete their objective early in the round. Many rounds go by without me even taking note of their existance. You could argue that all the above supports a more RP friendly enviroment, because most round fizzle out of exitement rather quick. But since i feel like my presence in many departmens is not actually needed, like i explained in my engineering/atmos example, i have trouble giving myself a arbitrary purpose over and over again.

 

 

I will just cut it here because i hope that i have made my point and the post is already way longer than i intended it to be. Now I am curious what you think about this topic.

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Guest

[Regen]

 

I agree with some of these points, i'll go over them

 

First off, the game is definitely too easy, changes like the Tesla engine and LINDA make most of engineering and atmos a very boring job, you basically wait 40 minutes and hope that some bomb goes off so you can work on restoring the area.

The chemistry change to goonchem made it so that there's no "one chem heals one type of damage" anymore, but it also severely buffed all medkits on station.

 

Everyone is so goddamn entitled, people complain over LOOC if they don't have their way, people will have week-long grudges about that one guy that didn't clone them.

There are so many observers that just fly around and complain about the slighest mistake people does, engineer didn't set up the tesla? Wow what a fucking idiot.

 

Everything is oriented around the "balance" bullshit, everything has to be "balanced", and by balanced, it means that a selected few thinks it's balanced.

See: Tasers.

Nothing is made hard anymore, "complexity for the sake of complexity" is a sin.

 

[CrAzYPiLoT]

I completely agree with Regen on this one. Nothing to add, nothing to remove. The quality of the gameplay experience has significantly decreased for me in my 3 years of playing; not only on Paradise, but SS13 as a whole. The community really has degraded, and I hope it will soon return to what it used to be.

[saywat_the_15th]

 

"complexity for the sake of complexity" is a sin.

 

For example: the old detective scanning tandem. That was complexity for the sake of it and that is ass.

 

 

EDIT: eh, i mean some would have been nice things have been denied because of balance issue. Well, pretty much everything has to be in balance before adding it which is kinda meh.

 

While antags shouldn't be crashing the server with their cluster max cap bombs, they should have some freedom.

 

Also a factor that affects the amount of antagonism is the fact that people get caught usually pretty early on and thrown into perma. Security players are iffy to parole traitors even if they haven't yet committed acts of violence. It usually goes like this:

>Be traitor, get steal objective.

>Try to break in somewhere

>AI spots you and calls security immediately

>*cue jackboots.wav*

>Security finds your e-mag and maybe some c-4

>Perma.

No one dares to play it interesting because you will just get the alcatraz.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

[GelatinousGlob]

 

I have to agree, especially with engineering and atmosia. Unless someone empties all the plasma cans from science into different areas of the station (which would get you banned anyways so it doesn't happen), you don't even need to touch atmosia ever. The tesla is easy-mode engine and I am supremely disappointed in it. Even if you wanted to mess with atmosia, it requires extreme disassembly of the whole thing to make room for any projects and you still have to deal with underfloor room pipes that are pressurized with general distro.

 

We got a bunch of EZ more low-rp features that keep being added, meanwhile people keep getting way more extreme with rules and regulations which conveniently only the ahelp complainers and security players ever are able to use to their advantage. Your pretty much always guilty of a crime and if anyone is a shithead to you then you need to either join the ahelp-everything bitches or just accept their abuse because even the smallest retaliation will just get you in trouble. Most rounds these days I complete avoid other players because either they rule nazis or they are just there to valid for anything and everything. You can't RP when even the slightest hinting at possible antag goals will get them to attack you with complete disregard for their own life or any possible RP. The people that would RP with a possible antag are usually put off due to the threat of ahelp nonsense unless its a metabuddy friend.

 

The way rules are being enforced seems to have erased the line between meta-knowledge and IC knowledge. People use metaknowledge far more extensively IC than they should. They either go crazy valids on them, or otherwise go complete metabuddy and completely ignore obvious traitor activities. Convincing someone to help you explore space and in the process steal jetpacks from EVA to do it is a believable and clever way to get a steal jetpack objective with non-antag help. Doing the same thing but using an emag and showing off your e-sword or pistol by shooting security on your escape is not believable and the non-antag helper should no longer be their buddy for that very fact.

 

[Vivalas]

 

Wow this thread is approaching dangerous levels of salt, but I completely agree with everything here.

 

I often compare paracode with baycode, given I played on bay for 3-4 years before I shifted here. When I first joined Paradise and it was listed, I loved it. The general atmosphere was great. There was always something going on, I remember half the station being blown up by the furry freedom force, and jist playing my violin and smoking with some Tajaran dude in the hallway as we complained about life. It was great. Now it just feels kinda dull. I loved paracode at first because it was a nice mix of bay and /tg/, but now we're leaning way too close to the /tg/ end of the spectrum. I miss the complexity and difficulty of baycode.

 

I think medical and engineering have been completely ruined. I used to play engineering and medical almost all the time on bay, but now I rarely play engineering and barely ever touch medical. LINDA is absolute hugbox and the Tesla is a joke. There is literally no point in playing medical other than for surgery because of the almighty cryotube magical omnipotent healing machine. Sure, maybe it's Rose-tinted glasses, but I still remember my first few games of SS13 in 2012 and I miss it. And no I don't like retro SS13. I've downloaded and ran OpenSS13 and OldBay and both were utter shit.

 

[Earthdivine]

 

I miss the complexity and difficulty of baycode.

Baycode might be more appealing to port if it wasn't so hideously awful. The RIG systems is a good example of that.

 

And wow this thread really is rose tinted glasses.

 

The only department that has it easy compared to days of old is engineering. People who say Medical is brainless obviously forgotten how powerful Chems were healing wise. Atleast you need to actually use patches and chems side by side now, before bruise gel and ointment were god awful compared to giving someone a Dyvolene+Bicardine+Dermaline+Dexaline Plus pill, which could be completely stocked for a whole shift by 30 minutes if the chemist was good. Hell I survived a full 20 minutes in soft crit because I was given one of those pills And I never once died dispite having multiple bullet wounds, a virus, and been lasered to near death in a Rev round. Lets not forget our good friend mister Chloral Hydrate + Sleep Toxin, which is by FAR more powerful of a chem combination then any Hell chem mix in terms of being stealthy. Add in Sulphuric Acid to get around hardsuits and biosuits.

 

Everytime I hear groaning about Atmos being too easy I have to shake my head and wonder what atmos you all are thinking of. All i remember is Admins having to intervene multiple times during large fires because Atmos grinds to a halt, a single window breaking venting the whole station and pressure never recovering, and no one EVER touching atmos except to do projects that yield the exact same results as current day. Remember we had to turn off Pyroclastic Anomalies because a single one spawning melted entire departments, even when it's defused just because it spawns plasma? Or whenever engineering gets flooded with Plasma, Science was flooded as well because that's how Atmos worked.

 

And quite honestly, nothing looks complex to you all now because you solved it. You know the ins and outs. The station is very hugbox because the community has driven itself away from a station based around "Work place accidents" and "Budget Cost Employees" to what we have now. "Balancing" the game did shit (Except Tasers, which is still better then "Tased twice, down and out forever"). I already had a big effort post about the community and how much they feel safe and sound, and the rise of "Us vs Them" mentality of the station and antags and don't really want to type it all again. If anything is to blame for the loss of how SS13 used to be, it's the SS13 community itself. If it wasn't, wouldn't this balancing issue just be our server?

 

[alexpkeaton]

 

I haven't played that much lately, and I am woefully inadequate at any of the jobs starboard of the bridge. Supply and command or IAA are my stomping ground. Points east make me nervous.

 

That said, as Captain, I love to encourage these crewmembers to aspire to something greater than what they are handed on a silver platter at the start of the shift. I once encouraged a CE to make a supermatter engine, unfortunately a minor design flaw wrecked everything, put the CE in crit and then dusted me when I rescued the CE and went back to secure the supermatter. Unfortunately, the crew proceeded to lynch the CE for conducting such a dangerous enterprise aboard their station, and also unfortunately the Captain was MIA to tell everyone to calm the f down because he sanctioned the whole thing.

 

When the xenos organs update was handed down, I worked with science and medical to obtain a xeno queen and harvest its organs for surgical purposes. I've encouraged the use of the EXPERIMENTOR to raise tech levels.

 

I am not sure the problem is with the lack of complexity, but perhaps more the resistance that is had when someone tries something new or unorthodox.

 

While I didn't get lynched in game for it (got lynched in dchat instead), once I handed out all-access to all crew during a nations round. There was a method to my madness, the notion of a sunshine act. Let the sun shine on the departments that typically close themselves off to the world - force them to communicate and trust one another, else a department with too much power or secrecy be lynched by the rest of the crew. There were flaws in my logic and execution, but it amazed me how resistent everyone was to a new or different idea.

 

Captain during a nuke ops round where war was declared. I commandeered the paramedic's ambulance because it could move fast and scramble the ops team's pinpointer. But the warden thought me a fool and started a mutiny by ordering my arrest. I was dragging the mime along with me and actually gave him the disk - if shit happened and I fell, the pinpointer would point at both of us and no one wold think I gave it to the mime. The mime turned out to be an admin who actually thought my plan had merit, he would tell me later. But with sec revolting, I tried to keep the battle on just one front - the real bad guys - and handed the disk over to the warden who promptly died in the middle of a corridor while looking for trouble. Who then bashed me in OOC postround for my idea.

 

If there's anything I wish paradise could learn, it would be a little bit of tolerance for new ideas and new styles of gameplay. I'm not saying all or even any of my ideas or strategies mentioned here were solid gold, but I get the impression that because a few people have crunched the numbers and powergamed all the aspects of all the jobs, that you are a comdom if you do things outside the norm or a bad traitor if you spend TCs on certain items or a bad wizard if you don't buy certain spells. And while I am a huge fan of SoP, I think the one bad side effect of the new SoP's is that it could stifle some innovation and push boundaries back into the box.

 

One time, to see how they could perform, I want to order medical to deactivate their cryotubes and rely more on chems and sleepers. Or order engineering to not use the tesla or singularity and use the turbine or supermatter. But I would get lynched for it. Because it's unduly harsh. Because it's unusual. Because it kills the powergamers. Because it's not SoP. I'd only suggest these things because it's a challenge and a goal to aspire to.

 

I wish more paradise players cooled their powergaming for a moment and embraced the unorthodox a little more.

 

[Earthdivine]

 

I wish more paradise players cooled their powergaming for a moment and embraced the unorthodox a little more.

 

Don't mean to post again so fast, but this is very much a big factor of why the "Wow" factor of the game is gone.

 

Remember how cool you felt doing R&D and figured out "Wow I can get these research points with this? I need to remember that for next time"? You can't ever experiment with R&D anymore to learn that. A scientist or RD will barge in and start cramming the thing to max in 10 minutes, and point you to the handy R&D Guide or program to have it done for you. If you don't let them max their toy then you get scrutinized for it.

 

The powergaming mentality is getting so strong it's strangling the game now. My first night back I saw someone make a side comment, "Well we got the wizard, quiet shift from here on out." I was honestly real saddened by that and made me want to just spawn in a bunch of mobs to assault the station with.

 

[Twinmold]

 

Power gaming is the main root to destruction of any game, and Space Station 13 is no different. People are so caught up on 'the best way' that they forget what the game is, especially to new players who are just learning the mechanics: It's a learning experience for all players, new and old. We add in new content to give the older players something new to mess around with, and have the older content for newer players to learn. But, as mentioned, there are certain people who forget this, forget that not everyone is on the same level as them, and rather have everything done as soon as possible, especially for those who want to then go out after antags. This leads antags to having to react faster, when the crew is at a low point before they are super powerful 15 to 30 minutes into the shift with X-Ray and super-equipment from science, medical having all the superior drugs available, mining having all the material in the world that will ever be needed (which science promptly steals all of and forgets engineering uses it, too, or that Cargo also needs to send material to the Trurl onboard the Arion for RP reasons).

 

The game has become 'how can we make this impossible for antags', and forgets... You are not here, expecting to be on a dangerous station, you are here to work. People can know what antags are, but stop living with the mentality that things are ALWAYS going to go wrong, that there are ALWAYS going to be antags... Because that's metagaming, honestly. It's usually outside knowledge from previous rounds and how the code works to know that 95% of the time, there will be some form of antag on the station. Forget about antags, and start focusing on your roleplay to actually do something entertaining. This will help lead antags to becoming more bold in approach, leading to, 'surprise surprise' antags that actually roleplay. We need to get the mentality of 'play to win' to go away and become 'play to roleplay', which was the goal of the Karma system, if I'm not mistaken: To reward players who made the game actually fun. I refuse to give karma to people who don't roleplay, because that's what we are here for. To live a life onboard the station, and roleplaying it makes it believable.

 

It's not even about unorthodox approaches to the game, but 'how can we make this entertaining'. Engineering making a supermatter? If they do it safely, why not? Just make sure solars are set up first. Remove all the internal components to the engine room, place plating down to fill the gaps, make supermatter engine. No problem. Certain things are not set or allowed for antags because of overall destruction purposes/lag. Bag of Holding is effectively end-round because it has been known to crash the server in the station Z-level if not destroyed quickly enough. We might be a little hard on antags otherwise. Sure, you shouldn't realize the singulo or tesla, as they can kill you, too, honestly, and you shouldn't fill a primary hallway with plasma, but a secluded area? Why not turn the lights off, fill the light-tube with plasma, and put it back in place. Next person turns the lights on, boom. Why not also add a low, almost unnoticeable amount of plasma to the same room so it catches on fire as you have the doors set to a remote signaler so you can bolt them behind the person walking in, forcing them to be trapped in a room on fire? Why do people not do it? Because it's 'hard', and it will 'make it easier for them to get found out in setting it up'. They want the simplest, most effective way... And that's part of why big explosions were ousted, because it's perhaps the biggest power gaming move. There were some other reasons, as well, lag being one of them.

 

Standard Operating Procedure is IC rules, and the page for them even says they are just a guideline. It's up to the people in charge, the Captain and Heads, if they are going to enforce SOP. The only ones expected to actually follow SOP is security, but sometimes, SOP goes out the window for them, too. A situation needs to be looked out to deem if it was a necessary action, and people who like to adminhelp a breach of Security SOP, expecting/asserting the breacher to be jobbanned, don't remember that there are multiple errors to this logic:

 

1) Did the person who breach Security SOP have a good reason? Usually an investigation needs to occur to deem if it is even a malicious breach, not a required-for-the-situation breach, unless it is an absolute rule-break (like murdering someone literally for no reason or harm-batoning someone repeatedly because they wouldn't shut up, both capable of being classified as Excessive Violence. Note, stunning someone to stop them from running isn't Excessive Violence).

2) When you adminhelp someone's breach, we do investigate. And we can see things you can't see, or that we are going to share with you. However, when you do an in-game investigation report and send it to Central, it can definitely help us not only make for a IC return report to say ya or nay on firing/termination but also where we need to be looking. We have a LOT of logs we get, and pruning through them can make things difficult, as we might even miss something. It helps when your reports do include transcripts so we can cross-reference that in the logs.

3) When people fear they can get a ban/jobban for playing a role, they stop playing the role. With fewer people playing security, that has two effects: Antags have less resistance from an organized group, and more people power game and valid hunt because there isn't the security force to face off against antags. This can lead to people, on both antag and non-antags, adminhelping 'valid hunter/not doing their job' and 'killed by antag, valid?' responses. The valid hunters also pair with the antag mentality rather than roleplay.

4) While we never reveal the source of a complaint from one player to another, some people can notice patterns for in game changes, and figure out who those people complaining are. Especially when they complain a lot. And when you turn around and are doing their job, and doing poorly at it, they will do the same thing. This 'admins are the way to stop all bad shit' all the time puts a drain on us, as well, and puts you guys subjectively against one another in how you play the game, almost purposely by meta grudging actions. And when we get a lot of complaints from a single person, we notice.

 

You guys want a better game, a better community? Then we all need to work on our gameplay, start trying to roleplay more rather than just win the game. Do the more difficult things because you can, not because it's hard. To use part of JFK's famous speech: "...and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard..." When people have fun with rounds, rounds last longer, and you can spend more time appreciating the work you have done. And when people start having more fun, maybe there will be fewer people thinking it's taboo for a round to be longer than 2 hours.

 

[counterfeitguise]

 

i'm pretty much with twinmold on this one.

 

people are playing this more like a game where winning and losing matters, rather than a roleplaying game where the point is that everyone is having fun. i've been known to spout that antags should have a harder time (stares intently at antag science) but in the end both sides of the coin, crew and non-crew, spend a fuckton of time trying to 'win' when it doesn't matter at all, and it's made things take a nosedive.

 

the thing is though, despite this, i like paradise as it is now. i like it more than i did when i first joined, in fact, though i can't pinpoint why. i guess it's the friendships i've made or the positive changes that've come along, but i'm a lot happier with the server than i used to be.

 

i don't want the old days back, i want the new days to be better.

 

[FPK]

 

I'll throw in my two bits.

 

Space Station 13, in my opinion, is a game about entropy. Various elements on the station increase/decrease the station's total entropy. Usually, when things go wrong, entropy rises. The crew, in response, works to restore order back to the station. Examples include antagonists, medical emergencies, engine failures, criminals, and random events. It's the crew's job to work together to handle these situations, and in doing so, survive Space Station 13. In my opinion, that is the spirit of SS13.

 

To go off on a tangent, Goonstation does this fantastically. Think of the station at round start as being completely neutral. The station is intact, all crewmembers are safe, and there are no active threats. However, there is huge potential for the crew to both increase entropy, as well as order. The engine is an easy example. While the station can run off of solar power, setting up the engine increases order by providing a power source for the station. However, at the same time, setting up the engine increases entropy. Plasma fires, breaches, the PTL, ambient heat generated by hellburns, those are just a few ways that the engine can increase the station's entropy. Even if the engine is set up correctly, there always remains the potential for something to go wrong. This is what keeps the round interesting. An imbalance is made on the station, so the crew works to even it out.

 

From what I've seen, and what others have said, Paradise lacks a balance of order and entropy. I won't bother going into it, seeing as how everyone else in the thread has covered that topic like tomato sauce on pasta. Powergaming has found itself a home on Paradise, and reducing it would require either the removal or overhaul of several, several features. It's an absolute mess, and I'm not sure what the answer is to it.

 

EDIT: knew I was forgetting something. It's late and I should get some sleep.

 

RP is intrinsically very orderly. There should be a certain level of order present on the station so that RP can exist. Too much, however, and there's literally nothing to RP about, other than boredom.

 

[Hero_Swe]

 

Before you read this throw out any sort of thoughts of rose tinted glasses because I went through the trouble of setting up a server running BYOND 507 and a client package for it. I gave it to a bunch of friends who don't play anymore and hosted a server on a REAL old paracode build on it. ZAS, red hit marks when attacked. You know, the actual good old days.

 

We had so much fun even though we were totally directionless and almost played it like traitor deathmatch! You know why? Because the systems in place back then was made to make it hard to survive. Dangerous things was actually dangerous and bombs were king, now they're a super minor inconvenience that any civilian with floortiles and metal on them can fix

 

Balance for the sake of M/HRP has changed Para for the worse and forced "parity" with other code bases was pointless to begin with. Now I can go on any other server and have an old-school fun paratime instead of the unique gameplay of balanced RP that we used to have.

 

[Kyet]

 

We're doing OK. I wouldn't say especially well or badly. But well enough.

I do see room for improvement / issues we could tackle. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7851&start=40 has my opinion on several of these.

 

I could make a case for most departments but in this case i choose Engineering/ Atmos as an example because i think the impact there has been the most severe. I think it all started with introducing Linda and the very strict rules against the use of atmos/ gases for traitors. The usecases for releasing plasma, N2O and the sorts are practically nonexistent. There are very few instances where you would not just be outright banned and even if the rules would allow you to, then you wouldn't use it anyway because atmospherics poses no real threat since linda is just atrociously slow.

 

I agree that atmos problems are not generally dangerous, and I would like to see them be more so. Being an atmos tech is not fun if hull breaches are harmless. You feel unnecessary.

 

The same idea basicly applies to Engineers, the engine is protected by sever rules so you set it and forget it. The engine also effectively supplies a infinite amount of energy so your job is done. Congratulations you are like 3 (extremly repeditive) minutes more useful as the atmos tech.

 

I agree that Engineers need more to do.

That can be fixing things, or it could be space to run big construction projects, or something else.

 

Applying what i said to the first point, when i enter a shift i no longer think about: will i manage to survive this shift? There might be the off chance of nukies or a specifc antag that has to kill you, but besides that there is nothing. You are protected by the server rules and since all enviromental danger we once had is now nonexistent, survival is practically a given! I think this is extremly boring and drags on many rounds much longer than they have any right to be.

 

 

I agree, rounds could use more danger/entropy.

 

First off, the game is definitely too easy, changes like the Tesla engine and LINDA make most of engineering and atmos a very boring job, you basically wait 40 minutes and hope that some bomb goes off so you can work on restoring the area.

 

I would like to see bombs used more often.

They involve security, engineering, medical... they're big drivers of interest and fun.

Sure, they're destructive, but they're also great at making things more interesting for a big chunk of people in the round.

 

The chemistry change to goonchem made it so that there's no "one chem heals one type of damage" anymore, but it also severely buffed all medkits on station.

 

IMHO, the main issue with medical is that there are fast, permanent treatments available for any condition.

Even death only requires throwing your body in a cloner. Not even that, with a defib.

Permanent death is hard. Science can even upgrade the cloner to scan husks.

Getting dusted is almost impossible - one of the only ways to have it happen (xenobio chem) was recently removed.

 

I'd like to see more work for medical to do. E.g: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8003 - incurable chronic conditions.

 

Everyone is so goddamn entitled, people complain over LOOC if they don't have their way, people will have week-long grudges about that one guy that didn't clone them.

There are so many observers that just fly around and complain about the slighest mistake people does, engineer didn't set up the tesla? Wow what a fucking idiot.

 

 

When people do this, I try to make a point of saying "Chill folks, he might be new", or "would you like to volunteer to teach him?".

 

Everything is oriented around the "balance" bullshit, everything has to be "balanced", and by balanced, it means that a selected few thinks it's balanced.

See: Tasers.

Nothing is made hard anymore, "complexity for the sake of complexity" is a sin.

 

Fun is more important than balance.

 

Consider foo strategies:

 

 

These are strategies put into the game in a deliberately unbalanced state, to give new players a way to compete with veterans, and get them to stick around long enough to enjoy the depth the game has to offer. They're not rare, either. Even the biggest, most popular games, like CoD, use this technique.

 

SS13, being an incredibly complicated game, would benefit enormously from these foo strategies. Indeed, we might already have some, such as spamming disarms.

 

IMHO, we need to worry much less about balance, and much more about fun.

 

I would love to see a through evaluation of Paradise's mechanics, with a focus on fun, rather than balance.

I imagine many jobs would need extensive revision to make them fun, such as Viro, Psych, Atmos Tech, QM, Brig Phys, Barber, etc.

 

EDIT: eh, i mean some would have been nice things have been denied because of balance issue. Well, pretty much everything has to be in balance before adding it which is kinda meh.

 

While antags shouldn't be crashing the server with their cluster max cap bombs, they should have some freedom.

 

Also a factor that affects the amount of antagonism is the fact that people get caught usually pretty early on and thrown into perma. Security players are iffy to parole traitors even if they haven't yet committed acts of violence. It usually goes like this:

>Be traitor, get steal objective.

>Try to break in somewhere

>AI spots you and calls security immediately

>*cue jackboots.wav*

>Security finds your e-mag and maybe some c-4

>Perma.

No one dares to play it interesting because you will just get the alcatraz.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

I've been thinking of doing a PR which would buff the ability of Security to securely parole people. My theory being that Sec is more likely to parole people if they feel they can do so safely. Parole leads to more fun than any kind of brig sentence.

 

The tesla is easy-mode engine and I am supremely disappointed in it.

Agreed. It generates vastly more power than the Singulo. It is also faster to set up, and safer. There is no reason to ever use the Singulo when the Tesla exists.

Singulo v Tesla should be a lively debate, with pros and cons to each. Not a situation where one is better than the other in every single way.

 

Even if you wanted to mess with atmosia, it requires extreme disassembly of the whole thing to make room for any projects and you still have to deal with underfloor room pipes that are pressurized with general distro.

 

Personally, I'd love to see at least one big, empty room that could function as a construction area. Not the pitifully small construction area already in Eng. I'm thinking something probably twice the size of the Assembly Line. Eng construction projects take space, and there is nowhere on the existing station that adequately supports them right now. This is a big reason why engineers tend to move over to the derelict to do big projects - there just isn't enough open space on the station.

 

We got a bunch of EZ more low-rp features that keep being added, meanwhile people keep getting way more extreme with rules and regulations which conveniently only the ahelp complainers and security players ever are able to use to their advantage. Your pretty much always guilty of a crime and if anyone is a shithead to you then you need to either join the ahelp-everything bitches or just accept their abuse because even the smallest retaliation will just get you in trouble. Most rounds these days I complete avoid other players because either they rule nazis or they are just there to valid for anything and everything. You can't RP when even the slightest hinting at possible antag goals will get them to attack you with complete disregard for their own life or any possible RP. The people that would RP with a possible antag are usually put off due to the threat of ahelp nonsense unless its a metabuddy friend.

 

Yeah, people are too quick to point out antags based on metaknowledge. The other day, a player was defibbed and instantly went "X killed me". X consented to a search, but within 30 seconds everyone figured out he was a ling with EMP implant, and within 60 he was killed. He was trying to RP a bit, admittedly not very well, but he was trying, and he got killed for it.

 

Banning knowledge doesn't work, though. The only way to really address the root cause of this problem is to invalidate the knowledge. For example, cult books in gateway and fake runes made of crayon make people much less likely to scream "CULT".

 

I'd like to see anti-metagaming techniques used to disrupt other common methods of identifying antags. For example, I'd like to see some traitor items being available as loot in hidden corners of the station (randomly determined, in a minority of rounds). Just something to stop people identifying antags so quickly using metaknowledge.

 

The way rules are being enforced seems to have erased the line between meta-knowledge and IC knowledge. People use metaknowledge far more extensively IC than they should. They either go crazy valids on them, or otherwise go complete metabuddy and completely ignore obvious traitor activities. Convincing someone to help you explore space and in the process steal jetpacks from EVA to do it is a believable and clever way to get a steal jetpack objective with non-antag help. Doing the same thing but using an emag and showing off your e-sword or pistol by shooting security on your escape is not believable and the non-antag helper should no longer be their buddy for that very fact.

 

Many of the crew are bored during their shifts. IMHO, part of the solution to this is giving them new, fun things to do which aren't just hunting antags.

 

[Keilden]

The feeling I get from several jobs is that you have to "powergame" or you will get yelled at or fired. As an example the chemist, if you don't fill the fridge to the top fast the CMO will go insane at you. Atleast thats how I feel it is.

[SpaceTimeNow]

 

Space Station 13, in my opinion, is a game about entropy. Various elements on the station increase/decrease the station's total entropy. Usually, when things go wrong, entropy rises. The crew, in response, works to restore order back to the station. Examples include antagonists, medical emergencies, engine failures, criminals, and random events. It's the crew's job to work together to handle these situations, and in doing so, survive Space Station 13. In my opinion, that is the spirit of SS13.

 

[...]

 

RP is intrinsically very orderly. There should be a certain level of order present on the station so that RP can exist. Too much, however, and there's literally nothing to RP about, other than boredom.

This descripes my point of view perfectly and is probably way more descriptive.

 

 

Everytime I hear groaning about Atmos being too easy I have to shake my head and wonder what atmos you all are thinking of. All i remember is Admins having to intervene multiple times during large fires because Atmos grinds to a halt, a single window breaking venting the whole station and pressure never recovering

Actually this is excatly what i was thinking of. What you descripe here puts a smile on my face and gives the atmos tech in me warm fuzzies. Where you just see a chaos and horrible day in adminville, i see a challenge to rebuilt and repair those areas. To a certain extend you are right, sometimes it went way overboard. But i think we are both right, because there were easily as many situations which were nothing but a awesome challenge for the entire station, opportinuties for people to work together or get creative with the resources they were left with.

 

There should have been a middle ground, but we just switched from one extrem to the other and removed every threat that atmos/ gas /fire / breachs could ever pose to the station.

 

 

and no one EVER touching atmos except to do projects that yield the exact same results as current day.

What's wrong with that? We started a shift with a atmos configuration that could handle the normal station operation and a few breaches here and there. It was not pepared for a apocalypse and why would it be? That was exactly the reason why there is a job solely to maintain and improve those systems. And as far as i remember there were very few people that allways built the same setup, you allways were looking for ways to optimise your system or learn from what other atmos techs built.

 

Nowadays there is the occasional one time pet project which is born out of sheer boredom and which is ultimately completely useless.

 

 

EDIT:

I kinda forgot to mention that i also think that "valid hunting" and "powergaming" is very much an issue and that problem like this very much exsist:

The feeling I get from several jobs is that you have to "powergame" or you will get yelled at or fired. As an example the chemist, if you don't fill the fridge to the top fast the CMO will go insane at you. Atleast thats how I feel it is.

But i think a big part of solving those problems is making peoples jobs more meaningful again so people are more focused on them selfs and their own jobs. This alone will greatly reduce the amount of chaos that is going on and if the whole station clams down than maybe (hopefully) the CMO comes in and helps or teaches, instead throwing insults at you and run to the next fire he has to put out.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

I have to agree with the points Twinmold and alex made earlier.

 

I remember the time I first played this game, sure, and there was definitely some form of magic in that, but for all the nostalgia I have for it I'm here, trying to do the same thing I did in the beginning and hitting brick walls where there used to be plenty of people trying the same thing. I've not exactly given up, trying to find ways around a number of blocks here and there, but really, the issue half the time with "balance" and things being "overpowered" half the time aren't even an issue with the mechanics, but more the overuse and abuse of those mechanics.

 

Personally, I'm content with everything going on because I can't get worked up at this game in its entirety, I can't help myself but to enjoy it. Could we all be doing things better? I'm sure there's at least a dozen things we could do each shift, that if done, the "old days" wouldn't be looking very old. The mentality has swapped, nobody is figuring out the game, and most of the time when people are, somebody who isn't doing anything wrong is sweeping the rug out from under them and giving them the right answers. they're not trying to hurt anybody, but it ruins the entire feel of it, the discovery portion of things, that's why I'm excited for modular changes, like the TG space ruins we're getting, or random Z level transition zones, the gateway, or hell, I even grin a bit at the maintenance loot system, because you can't bet on what's going to always be there, sure you know the pool, but where everything goes and how it fits together isn't going to be the same through any maint walk.

 

Administration has gotten better over the years, but there have been a few changes, such as the severity of bans and the amount of warnings given to players. I rarely see a ban under perma, and in turn, I do see a ton of notes all over the place, sometimes on the same person, with nothing but a job ban occasionally, never days or a week to get people to calm down and think about things. During the "old days" or at least when I came into the staff, there was bickering left and right over almost every single mechanic and addition, to the point where it was so much of a shitshow that we had admins ducking out of the admin chat for lengthy amounts of time, till everything calmed down. Now? I barely even hear a word of aggression, it's calmed down, gotten nicer, people disagree, sure, and they disagree strongly on some topics, but the discussion has gotten better, and it's become less of "who's right" and "who's wrong" and more "how can we fit this thing to both sides without the one side killing the other", with very few exceptions.

 

The playerbase has changed a ton, players who seemed to be in their best positions left in scattered waves as time went on, people who we got along with or didn't quite get along with alike. Many of the regulars today are either complicating issues we've already been discussing, or still trying to do what they were doing in the past, and getting less and less people to catch on. There's a lot more silence now where there used to be radio chatter, departmental or common, and when anybody tries to start a conversation with somebody they've never met, it only rarely seems to work.

 

It's a mentality change, something that we all, for the most part, have had. I myself have found myself acting more disinterested and less willing to do what I used to do in terms of actions, swapping those out for just sitting in a room waiting for somebody to talk to rather than giving them something to talk about. You don't hear "What are you working on?" or "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING IN HERE?" enough anymore, more just "What's going on?" or "How's it going?" followed by the single line phrase I've had to have heard a dozen times by now "Same." replacing countless lines of dialogue of something crazy some baldie or somebody I actually know the name of doing something completely ludicrous. "Hawke has taken the entire poster population of the station hostage in the psych's office", "That guy you may not remember, some kidan named Kaukata Zikar came up to some random baldie and handed him a death alarm", "CC flipped their shit about Bulma trying to start nudist riots and she had to be carried into hiding in the gateway", "Seda decided to attempt dating another guy for the hundreth time.". I don't hear any chatter like that anymore, and sure, it was either the ordinary or the out of the ordinary, but something was always happening, and you knew about it. That's the kind of feeling I'm hoping we could get back if everybody decides to just do something, be it strange or even normal, at least talk it over, give the person you're talking to something to remember, so that they can have those conversations, so they can make it feel like things are moving, not just sitting around, the same thing as last shift, the same people, the same events.

 

There's a plethora of objects in the game intent on making sure that you can project a number of things from yourself to the world around you, the RCD, wires for wire art, the station blueprints, metal and glass construction, the cargo equipment ordering system and console building, moveable machines and a near completely deconstructable station, meaning that you have the freedom, if you wanted to, to redo an entire area given enough effort. I've seen a tesla bar built entirely around the engine, a small trade shop or cafe set up in the vacant office, a command center refurbished from the ruins of the assembly line. It's possible to do plenty of things to make the round more interesting, not only for you, but for anybody who interacts with and sees those happenings underway.It doesn't have to be something hard, even if something hard would be more interesting, it can be simple things like adding lights and floors to maintenance, helping out a department with a job you wouldn't normally be doing, such as an officer assisting a surgeon or brig medic while they do surgery on that leg you just busted in, or maybe with the power of SCIENCE you could start a pet service, handing out pet slimes to other crewmembers in exchange for something or nothing at all.

 

These ideas are not only to reminisce and recount what happened before things were as they are now, but also to give you ideas on what we can do as a community to change these things, however minuscule what we do may be. Have fun, don't think about it too much, and good luck.

 

[Renomaki]

 

I myself am rather content with the way things are.. Mostly.

 

Of course, there will always be problems that need looking into, such as powergaming or the simplification of things that make certain jobs feel less rewarding. My main problem, though, it more towards people's lack of patience..

 

If people haven't noticed, I tend to have a much higher level of tolerance of the mundane and quiet, and who is also able to tackle jobs that most people give up on moments upon starting the shift with some degree of effort. Hell, most people would be baffled at the idea of an atmos tech spending 2 HOURS doing nothing more but overwatch duty, watching monitors in his little control station and nothing more.. That is some patience right there. Whatever job I get, I always try to do something with it rather than complain about having nothing to do if I get an "RP focused" job or a low ranking job.

 

Other people, however, seems to lack what I have.. You have people who take certain jobs like chaplain or librarian and just muck about, not even trying to do their job in the slightest. In other cases, you have people like the engineers, who complain that once the engine is finished there is nothing left to do, despite the fact that there are plenty of little projects you could do as an engineer, having been one myself a few times (such as remodeling and beautification of the station. You aren't given a load of building supplies for nothing). And lets not get started on the players who cryo if they don't get picked for antag, regardless of the job they have. I like being the bad guy as much as the next guy, but again, it is rewarded to those who wait, not those who bitch and moan until they get picked... Then proceed to murderbone everyone.

 

Maybe I'm more of an RPer than a fighter (in fact, I am a pretty bad fighter..), but I really think people need to learn to appreciate the quiet moments a little more. After all, in the hands of a creative few, you could easily take those dull moments and turn them into fun moments. Remember the time the clown hosted a stand-up comedy show in the bar? I WAS that clown, and I had a great time taking advantage of a humble moment and turning it into a mini-event that brought everyone together and got more people involved and distracted, instead of them moping around because "there was nothing to do". Players need to realize there is more ways to spice up a round than utter chaos, yuh know? You just need a little creativity...

 

[Allfd]

 

The playerbase has changed a ton, players who seemed to be in their best positions left in scattered waves as time went on, people who we got along with or didn't quite get along with alike. Many of the regulars today are either complicating issues we've already been discussing, or still trying to do what they were doing in the past, and getting less and less people to catch on. There's a lot more silence now where there used to be radio chatter, departmental or common, and when anybody tries to start a conversation with somebody they've never met, it only rarely seems to work.

 

I guess this is what I miss the most. I miss some of the characters and players from what I would consider the old days (2014)

 

I remember a time when working in engineering was exciting, I spent the first few months playing nothing but engineering and atmospherics, round after round. I don't play engineering on paradise anymore.

 

I find it hard to engage in RP sometimes for the same reasons as in the quote which is unfortunate. I still play paradise for the connections I have made with other players over the years.

 

[TheDemonic]

Honestly I've stopped playing this server simply because every round ether ended with a crew transfer or 5 mins before the shuttle with nothing happening before that and anything that kills the crew seems to get nerfed into the ground or balanced for fairness instead of fun. I wouldn't even say this is a good RP environment because there is nothing too roleplay about, you just sit in the bar and talk about the weather instead of RPing about what's happening on the station. Also RP rounds with no antag should simply not exist they are boring and pointless.

[NTSAM]

 

Oh boy where to begin?

 

Well, I am actually quite damn disappointed how paradise turned out. I came here because I wanted Medium RP, FUN rounds and great admins.

 

And we had that for quite a bit. But not anymore.

 

Our RP quality has plummeted in the matter of a few months. Honestly I was just fine with our level in June 2015, but in like 2 or 3 months after that we became Low RP trashbin. Every other player has a "Play2win" mentality and will often go out of their way to make the round less fun for everyone by not doing any interaction at all with anyone and going on a powergaming spree every shift. Cliques run amok and refuse to interact with anyone outside their group. Worst part is that the admins barely ever do anything about these people. Which brings me to another aspect in which para has failed in.

 

The admin team is often quite unresponsive when actual shit happens. They always worry about people who trigger them and say shit they don't like but actually never pay any attention to the more major shit like validhunting and mass murder or otherwise dangerous things happen. You can get greytided and its unlikely they'll get any punishment until they kill an admin's snowflake or best buddy. And even then they'll ignore all the victims. The only major thing they pay attention to is bombings and that's just because you'd have to be a blind idiot to not see that.

 

And finally, the fun factor of current-state para has to be the area its most lacking in. If a traitor kills anyone their method of murder gets nerfed again. (And don't get me wrong, I believe nerfing is ok if done reasonably like it was done for the pre-nerf Chainsaw.) If anything can kill a clumsy guy it gets babyproofed. A good example of <--- this is the tesla, which has like 0 downsides and is retardproofed so much its barely ever round ending. Not to mention its practically forced on every engineering team so its not like they have to jump through hoops. The singulo, a round ending doom hole was replaced with this oversized engineering hugbox. Back on topic, players barely try letting antags make the round more fun and will often bash their head in with an extinguisher. Validhunting groups exist and are sometimes to be highly expected. Back in an older round there was a person who announced over the radio that they were making a "vampire hunting group" and it was a legit thing, and they hunted vampires down just because they were valid. Which brings me to vampires, who are so nerfed and weak they're barely acceptable. Vox Raiders are almost always the same shitty traders as usual and never bother to do a fun actual raid and I half don't blame them with the massive assholish validhunting crew and the fact that vox raiders are so shit they don't get any substantial weapons and have this retarded "kill no one under any circumstance lol" law. Every round is the same shit where all the antags get killed or detained due to overnerf-induced frailty and the transfer shuttle arrives after 2 hours and nothing wrong happens ever except in nukies who I'm surprised hasn't been nerfed in the ground after they killed every station-renown snowflake metabuddy multiple times over and over. We might as well just remove all gamemodes and make rules enforcing everyone to sit in the bar and circlejerk and remove all forms of harming and rebrand ourself as Second Life in Space because that's what some people are trying to make us. Hell, as it stands right now, I'd rather stand in the middle of a Second Life yiff orgy for 2 hours than spend a shift on Para now.

 

[Spacemanspark]

Oh my

[necaladun]

 

Incoherent rant ending with line about yiff orgy

 

 

This is helpful and constructive criticism we will clearly take on board.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

Other people, however, seems to lack what I have.. You have people who take certain jobs like chaplain or librarian and just muck about, not even trying to do their job in the slightest.

 

I just want to say that, after having played librarian off-and-on, for a week straight, I really can't blame them.

 

You fill every single one of your bookshelves (well, at least according to the book-shelf sprite), re-arrange things, put out snacks, even maybe order a pizza crate, announce it over radio, and you're lucky to get even two people to show up. Once in a blue moon you will get someone who shows up, reads a book or two, but...that's really about it.

 

A decent amount of people would come and actually be disappointed you did your job, because they couldn't deconstruct the shelves for wood planks.

 

So, I really can't blame most players to treating it like assistant+, to be honest.

 

[Spacemanspark]

Pffft if you want wood go take apart the wood table in the fitness room.