A change in antag knowledge

[Regen]

 

In the admin team we are constantly discussing what to do to improve and make paradise a better place.

For some time now, we've been talking about the issue of security and how antags are always branded an antag the second any "antag" item is found on them, for instance the thermal glasses, which are disguised as a pair of mesons.

 

What do you think, as the community, is a fitting line to draw here?

Should literally any and all items be known to security, or should only the obvious handgun and pipebomb be?

 

This would change how antags gets processed by security, if we make a clear definition that "stealthy items" such as the sleepy pen and the AI detectors are "not known" to security, they won't instantly get fucked over for the possession of a pen in their backpack.

 

On the other hand, this goes to the whole discussion of "security having to play dumb", while I am not big on forced RP, I see it necessary, and a part of RP itself to not always know about everything.

 

[MindLeaker]

 

On the other hand, this goes to the whole discussion of "security having to play dumb", while I am not big on forced RP, I see it necessary, and a part of RP itself to not always know about everything.

 

That's pretty much my argument here, roleplaying some all-knowing Sec Officer who has apparently encountered every single antag and every single contraband item in his 20-year life is ridiculous to me. I've always been pushing for a higher RP standard, and a change like this would likely help greatly in moving us back up to MedRP.

 

On the other hand, I can understand those that disagree here, changing a rule so old can be unwelcome to a great many that simply don't want that kind of RP in Paradise.

 

Stealthy items are kind of moot when every Sec Officer searching you knows to check the pen in your PDA, that removes the point of making them stealthy, really, since you'll be branded a traitor as soon as they see a reagent amount in the pen.

 

[LittleBigKid2000]

Though, considering the NSS Cyberiad gets attacked by malfunctioning blood-sucking nuclear wizardling blob cultist traders on a bi-hourly basis, a sec officer encountering every antag and every contraband item during their first week on the cyberiad isn't farfetched.

[MindLeaker]

 

Though, considering the NSS Cyberiad gets attacked by malfunctioning blood-sucking nuclear wizardling blob cultist traders on a bi-hourly basis, a sec officer encountering every antag and every contraband item during their first week on the cyberiad isn't farfetched.

 

But any of those times an antag kills you the knowledge of that shift is wiped. I don't think that's a valid argument here because the amount of shifts anyone can remember is entirely up to them and how they play.

 

[counterfeitguise]

 

while i appreciate this to some degree, where does the line get drawn that its reasonable to assume a character knows all of this stuff because theyve seen it all and learned? being a veteran, too, is part of roleplaying, and while i get that validhunting and whatever's a big deal, it's going to be incredibly hard to force knowledgeable sec players to act dumb

 

i understand making it so only sec knows what these weird objects are

hell i understand making it so only the head of security knows what the really sneaky shit is

 

i just worry this sort of thing might slip us too close to bay, which is what terrifies and frustrates a lot of people who come to para to begin with

 

so i mean, i'm for it, but i'm incredibly wary about it

 

[Regen]

 

Though, considering the NSS Cyberiad gets attacked by malfunctioning blood-sucking nuclear wizardling blob cultist traders on a bi-hourly basis, a sec officer encountering every antag and every contraband item during their first week on the cyberiad isn't farfetched.

 

First off, that's not part of the issue, having an "ic excuse" isn't a problem

 

Secondly, shifts being after one another has never been confirmed in lore.

 

[Earthdivine]

 

On the other hand, I can understand those that disagree here, changing a rule so old can be unwelcome to a great many that simply don't want that kind of RP in Paradise.

 

Actually we had the rules like this before, back when the server was new.

 

It got changed because people ignored it all the time and made the dumbest excuses to explain why they knew the things they did. That's honestly the crux of my argument with this.

 

It's been done before and failed horribly. Don't repeat the past.

 

[Deanthelis]

 

This puts more workload on active admins, since inevitably antags are going to whine and complain that they got caught regardless of how ICly the sec officer who nabbed them or whatever obtained the knowledge of the macguffin they got caught for, which means a lot of talking to players on the admin's part.

 

As much as I'd like a perfect world where people weren't shitlers, no thanks. I'd rather deal with omniscient security than never-available admins (though this is probably because I play Paperwork Peon and am biased by fax response speeds).

 

EDIT: I mean, fuck, I see at least one person a day screaming in the common channel about the Deathsquad. We can't get people to not know about ONE THING, let alone all the tater shit.

 

[Keroman]

 

I'm fine with general crew not having in-depth knowledge of antagonists, however preventing Security from knowing about antags is, in my opinion, a step too far.

 

It makes sense to me that anyone who works security (as well as Magistrate, Blueshield, and Captain) would be briefed on the potential threats the station might face.

 

This becomes a problem, however, when either A) security is understaffed or B) security is wiped out. If the former is true then players aren't going to have anyone to report stuff to or who can inform them of what to watch out for. If the latter is true then it's likely the rest of the crew will know something's up and might already be gearing up for self defense, at which point it becomes tricky to differentiate between the people who are validhunting and the people who are acting in self defense upon getting attacked (or perceiving that they're being attacked even if that's not the case.)

 

Maybe allow each department to have a specific type of antag knowledge? Engineers might know what types of explosives the Syndicate uses because they regularly have to make repairs caused by said explosives. Medbay might know more about the biology of changelings and that they have stingers and use chemicals. Science might know more about the capabilities of non-human antags. Robotics would be better suited for helping deal with emagged borgs or malf AIs.

 

[MindLeaker]

 

IMaybe allow each department to have a specific type of antag knowledge? Engineers might know what types of explosives the Syndicate uses because they regularly have to make repairs caused by said explosives. Medbay might know more about the biology of changelings and that they have stingers and use chemicals. Science might know more about the capabilities of non-human antags. Robotics would be better suited for helping deal with emagged borgs or malf AIs.

 

I'm optimistic, but that's way too hard to police from an administration standpoint, while Command should definitely be briefed on the many types of antags about, having department specific info like that is absolutely impossible to enforce. Not to mention, if one character plays Engineer, and has knowledge of bombs, then the next round his plays Cargo Tech, he's hardly going to forget all the information suddenly.

 

[TullyBBurnalot]

 

One of the issues here is that limited knowledge of this kind cannot be adequately confined to Security. If Security are to have limited knowledge of Antagonist items, then the rest of the crew would also have to have limited knowledge, either on part with Security, or even less.

 

In practice, this would mean telling everyone playing on the server "you don't know what X is now". And I don't feel like this is feasible, much less favorable.

 

Limiting available antagonist knowledge is something that was... never really done, so far as I am aware, since I have been playing here (about 2 years?). It's something that people have gotten accustomed to. It's something that's part of the current atmosphere of the server. It's one of the things that, for better or worse, defines Paradise and separates her from, say, Baystation. Considering our average server population, and the influx of new players even while unlisted, I do not think it would healthy for the community to implement such a drastic change.

 

Do not get me wrong. I do not intend to speak for the community, but I cannot help but feel that, considering how things have been operating, so far, suddenly imposing such clear restrictions on available IC knowledge, especially for Security players, would lead to very much what Earth was saying; people trying to work around it. Security, and the crew in general, have been operating under the "we know what this all is" rule for a long time. I do not believe that such a change is even feasible at this point. Not only would it require every current player to suddenly play along nicely, but it would also require new players to get accustomed to it. And frankly, I believe it is something that is, at this point, alien to Paradise. I fear what that would mean for new potential players.

 

Basically what Deanthelis said, as well.

 

Limiting antagonist knowledge, artificially, at this point in Paradise's history, would be like suddenly turning 90 degrees on a straight road. Could it work? Maybe. Do I think it would work and would lead to a better, funner experience for everyone on the server? Not really.

 

[MindLeaker]

 

It's something that people have gotten accustomed to. It's something that's part of the current atmosphere of the server. It's one of the things that, for better or worse, defines Paradise and separates her from, say, Baystation. Considering our average server population, and the influx of new players even while unlisted, I do not think it would healthy for the community to implement such a drastic change.

 

Limiting antagonist knowledge, artificially, at this point in Paradise's history, would be like suddenly turning 90 degrees on a straight road. Could it work? Maybe. Do I think it would work and would lead to a better, funner experience for everyone on the server? Not really.

 

Thing is, if we don't make changes, we're going to stagnate, because we'll constantly have the problem of validhunting, in both Security and the crew, which I find honestly less appealing than the possibility an antag gets away with a sleepypen once or twice. I'm not a fan of the status-quo, but my own ideas are way too drastic to be implemented whatsoever. And the idea of new players having to become accustomed to it sounds better to me than the more drastic flipside, new players becoming accustomed to valid salads, not to mention I'd warrant new players would be more adaptable than the old, since they have lived with the rules for a shorter time overall.

 

This is a small change with big repercussions, that's very clear. And naturally I'm in no position to decide whether or not this would be too much strain on the admins to police, but overall the simple idea that the crew isn't some group of people with access to super-classified documents seems better to me. If admins have to crack down on Security as a result of this change, I can see why it might be undesirable. But honestly players that leave simply because they can't catch sleepypen users aren't the kind of players many like to deal with regardless.

 

[TullyBBurnalot]

 

I absolutely agree. I have always been an advocate for semi-frequent listing precisely because I wish to avoid stagnation. Hell, that's why I, Free and Neca worked on the whole Space Law rewrite, and why I dedicate myself to writing pointless legalese documentation no one ever reads.

 

/selfdeprecation

 

The issue is, I am not convinced this is the correct turn to take. As Earth mentioned, this would be regressing to a state of affairs that was already attempted, and failed. And this was back when Paradise was still a little babby, not nearly the grand beast it is now. It feels like a backwards "Let's try this again" step, rather than a step forward.

 

[SomanB]

 

Here's how I would do it (and how I DO run things on my server)

 

HoS: All antag knowledge, all the time. Literally his job.

Cap: Knows MOST antag knowledge. Knows the physical gear, basics of supernatural antags

Detective: same as Cap, he's the detective!

Basic sec: They know the obvious gear. They know to consult with HoS/Detective if they find someone with obvious gear, for further investigation.

CE: Knows all engineer antag items. Basic knowledge of loud (chainsaws, eswords) antag gear.

CMO: Anything medical antag, he knows. Implants, changeling stuff, poisons, the like.

RD: Well, he knows the AI, and what to look for re: subversion/malf.

HoP: least knowledge of the heads. Maybe agent cards and voice changers.

 

As for crew, they know the loud gear for traitors. Nothing about the supernatural,with the exception of the Chaplain. Chappie knows all about anything from bluespace, filtered through his religion.

 

The important thing is, this is ROUND START knowledge. Should vampires be discovered, there's nothing stopping HoS from briefing the crew on what vampires do.

 

[necaladun]

 

I really don't think this is the answer, for a few reasons.

 

Firstly - admin work. It's more work for the admins to check how someone was found out as a traitor or whatever. Some of this will be unproveable.

 

Secondly - it's a pretty big limit on RP and character creation. If it's limited to what job you are, then we have to assume you get laser-guided amnesia whenever you don't play a role. If Tristan Edwards happened to be a civilian one day, it'd be fucking weird for him not to be treated as an off duty HoS. It also means I can't make a character who, in their backstory, emergent or not, has worked for the syndicate in the past.

 

Thirdly - It'd be frustrating as hell to not be able to catch someone when OOCly you know. OOCly they know you know OOCly, etc.

 

Finally - I don't want to have to repeatedly do the whole "oh what is this multitool oh why did it suddenly change colour" or whatever, more than once.

 

 

The solution I think is mechanical. If these items could be made more easily concealable, such as only being able to be activated by a traitor (Due to...DNA locks? Code words? Secret buttons? Etc?) then we solve the problem ICly and OOCly.

 

[Allfd]

 

The solution I think is mechanical. If these items could be made more easily concealable, such as only being able to be activated by a traitor (Due to...DNA locks? Code words? Secret buttons? Etc?) then we solve the problem ICly and OOCly.

 

For the AI detector and sleepy pen, perhaps we could just name them the same as the real items? Who would know? Sure security could just try stabbing themselves, so perhaps it could only be used by a traitor?

 

I like the secret activation idea.

 

[Keroman]

 

For the AI detector and sleepy pen, perhaps we could just name them the same as the real items? Who would know? Sure security could just try stabbing themselves, so perhaps it could only be used by a traitor?

 

They're already named like and have the same description as the items they're disguised as. The only way to test the AI Detector is to call the AI and have it come look at you for a moment to see if the light on the multitool turns red.

 

For the sleepypen it's a little more difficult because any pen, when clicked on someone while using Help intent, says, "You jab X with the pen!" whether or not it's a sleepypen. You could potentially jab them then scan them with a health scanner to see if it injected anything, or if you have a dropper and beaker of any liquid you could try to refill it and see if it works (since you can't refill regular pens as they don't hold reagents).

 

[alexpkeaton]

 

I think this is the right idea - higher level roleplay. Just a tick higher. And I wish validhunting could be killed dead. This could help. But here's the biggest problem:

 

Officer A: Joe, stop a moment, we're at Blue and I am conducting random searches.

Joe Antag: Okay.

Officer A: (*searches backpack*) Why are you wearing that gasmask?

Joe Antag: None of your damn business.

Officer A: Right. Okay.

(Officer B overhears)

Officer B: Yeah, let me see that gasmask, anyway!

(*Joe hands it over*)

Officer B: Shit, this is a voice changer!

LOOC: Officer A: Did you hear about the new rules, B? We're not supposed to know about stealthy traitor items. Here's a helpful link to the forums about it: link.com

LOOC: Officer B: Yeah, I know all about it, and I think it's bullshit. I can know whatever the f#&$ I want!

[security]: Officer B: HoS, got an EoC here, Joe Antag, bringing to processing now.

LOOC: Officer A: Wait a sec...

LOOC: Joe Antag: What a dick.

[security] HoS: Nice. Good work, B. We'll be waiting.

[security] Officer A: Hold on, HoS, I think that B might be mixed up ((He's clearly ignoring the new rule on limited knowledge, caught voice changer, ahelping now))

[security] Officer B: No mix up!

[Common] Officer B: JOE ANTAG IS A TRAITOR, HE HAS A VOICE CHANGER!

*bwoink*

 

Okay. Stop. Sure, B gets the hammer. That's the easy part. The hard part is, how do you enforce this rule when any one person who A) doesn't read the rules or B) reads them but who, like Officer B, doesn't give a shit could give away the farm in one sentence over comms?

 

And when that happens, what do you do? As sec? As admins? It's hard to put the toothpaste back into the tube. You could let Joe go, but everyone will know that he's a traitor, he won't be able to get away with anything. Joe's round just got ruined.

 

After thinking about this, I honestly do think we should put this into action. There will be plenty of slipups like above. 90% will be unwitting, people who didn't inform themselves or forgot about it. It will take time and there will be a lot of bitching and moaning. And to that, I say, hold fast and sharpen your hammers, admins. Because this sort of rule will take time to implement, but in the process the players we really don't want here, the ones unwilling to budge, will be filtered out in the end. They will either leave on their own or will face the hammer.

 

Change isn't easy. And for a higher level of roleplay there needs to be conditions on knowledge of some sort. It will be tough to implement and tough to begin to enforce, but it will be that way regardless of what condition you set. So bite the bullet and do it.

 

Just have a plan for how to handle what to do for the antag whose round got ruined because someone spilled the beans. My suggestion: respawn them in 5 minutes as a different antag, or give them an antag token.

 

[Da Dman234]

 

Now, are we just talking about restricting information on contraband, or antag types in general? I feel enforcing one but not the other would be confusing in multiple senses.

 

For example, people are allowed to know that space vampires are weak to holy things, changlings fire, ect, but not be able to identify traitor gear? I feel if you start divying up what meta knowledge is acceptable and what isn't it could get messy... Though, I'm sure some servers do this, just none that I know of/play on, so I couldn't tell you if they were successful at it anyway.

 

[SomanB]

 

 

They're already named like and have the same description as the items they're disguised as. The only way to test the AI Detector is to call the AI and have it come look at you for a moment to see if the light on the multitool turns red.

 

For the sleepypen it's a little more difficult because any pen, when clicked on someone while using Help intent, says, "You jab X with the pen!" whether or not it's a sleepypen. You could potentially jab them then scan them with a health scanner to see if it injected anything, or if you have a dropper and beaker of any liquid you could try to refill it and see if it works (since you can't refill regular pens as they don't hold reagents).

 

 

Slightly wrong. The test for a sleepypen is "rightclick-examine". You see a reagent list, sleepypen totes busted. Edagger, just try to turn it on. AI detector, as you said, just have the AI come take a peek.

 

 

For stealth antag items like that, I think it'd be more than reasonable to do a "traitor check" before activating. Sleepypen held by a sec guy, it's just a pen. They want to verify it, forensic scan it for stuff. AI detector...works like a multitool in anything but a traitors hands. You want to verify it, call R and D to decon the thing. Same with an edagger.

 

Stealth items should be just that, totally stealth. Unless you put some effort into discovering it, you don't know what it does.

 

[pinatacolada]

I'd much rather this be a mechanical thing over stealth antag items, that would check if you were an antag before you could do whatever with it

[Farya]

 

Making stealth gear more stealth would work. Sleepy pen could have two modes: Storage and Armed. In storage mode its just a pen when you examine it and you would probably could even write with it(but poking someone would do nothing). In armed mode small needle and small indicator will be revealed, showing you how much the pen is filled and allowing you to inject people.

Radiation scanner is pretty rare and stealthy already but it could have "hidden" mode as well. But its still would not work when you try to use it in that mode. "Oh, that scanner seems to be broken. Its just show gibberish on its display"

Toy sword could probably be renamed into Energy sword and Toy chainsaw would be renamed into Chainsaw. But both would have new descriptions revealing them as toys.

Detomatrix cartridge should be named as Generic signaler cartridge and have same description with one.

Energy crossbow should be renamed into Toy one. But it would probably have more sinister look when you examine it more carefuly. Maybe its made out of metal instead of cheap toy plastic, or just heavier to carry?

Toy handguns and shotguns could have their coloured tips removed and placed onto real guns. It would hardly fool anyone on close examination but could probably work on brief one.

 

[Coldflame]

 

I'm strongly against this. Admittedly I'm a major security player so this might be worth taking with a pinch of salt, but I've got some valid concerns to raise.

 

My primary consideration here is the complete disregard of character roleplay. IC documentation is filled to the brim with references to antags and their items, so it's clear NT has a full working understanding of them- the crew would be told this information before signing on, not to mention the vast majority of players having run into each type of antag on multiple occasions at this point. If we restricted character knowledge, especially by role, you are no longer roleplaying your character- you are now roleplaying a job. This closes off a huge variety of character options, security players especially lose any ability to roleplay as veterans, constantly having to act like it's their first time running into any trouble. There's also the problem Neca noted of people who're playing jobs outside of their character's department not being allowed to retain knowledge.

 

I also feel that this won't have the impact people are expecting it to have. Servers with forced antag knowledge (or lack thereof) have generally made a strong case against it. I'd argue the ideal solution here is 'antags need to git gud', but that's not a solution that can be actually employed. From a code, mechanical, and space law standpoint I would argue the 'balance' between antags and security is actually pretty fair- the problem being, security have the advantage of experience (you can play sec every round, you get on average one shot at antag per day if you play quite a few rounds) as well as generally having competent players (people seem to like hating on sec, but it's pretty undeniable a good chunk of the regular security players are pretty robust). Tipping the balance in favor of antagonists from a mechanical/space law standpoint is already something that's happening, though only time will tell if that'll actually work.

 

I don't have a magic bullet to suggest here, but I am in agreement forced security incompetence is a bad direction to take Paradise.

 

[necaladun]

 

Very much agree about the part of "roleplaying a job" - while I very much would like to restrict knowledge to stop mary sue special forces also capable of surgery and bluespace physics, I would hate to restrict a lot of antag knowledge on that, especially when it's something that could so easily be covered in a quick security briefing.

 

There's also the problem of when can a HoS/whatever just tell people that? On one extreme, you could just make a macro to say over radio what every item is at the start of every shift. On the other extreme, there's having to tell people you can't tell them why you just took a pen because of company secrets or whatever.

 

This isn't however about balance per se, it's not about making antags "win" more or less. It's about making it more fun an experience, whether or not they greentext. Tbh, I'm really not interested in that form of balance at all. It shouldn't be about some greentext/redtext ratio. To that extent, this is about removing the more jarring standard check for agent ID/pen/etc. I like the idea of this still being something that -can- be checked for, but needs a lot of co-operation with R&D etc, so you'd have to prioritize. If you have reason to suspect they sleepypenned someone, take it to R&D to check - but checking their ID, multitools, pens, gas masks, etc, etc, just on the off-chance is too much - especially if the change happens that some of these items are just contraband, not instant EoC and death.

 

[TullyBBurnalot]

 

I would not be averse to the idea of a "RnD Checkup" for the more stealthy items. In fact, I can see it being a great idea, actually.

 

1) Security is allowed to retain their knowledge of existence, but lack the capacity to identify. This would mean no more "Hey, this pen has liquid in it" just by looking at it. Which even I think is cheesy;

 

2) It would probably lead to more cooperation between RnD and Security, and give RnD a fun little thing to do. Officer McHambatan shows up with a bag of possible contraband, RnD analyses it and tells Mister McHambatan what the contraband is after an analysis of the objects, and now we have evidence (or not) of it;

 

3) It would allow for the current level of knowledge, overall, to be retained, while instating some degree of complexity beyond "AI, come here".