Remove secborgs

[Doukan]

 

i baton'd pls remove

 

In all seriousness, NOT ONCE have I EVER, not ONCE, EVER, had ANY positive sort of experience with a sec borg.

They exist purely to powergame, they are immune to nigh everything, they are always played by the most dickish of players...

 

Vampire? Send in the sec borg.

 

Changeling rampage? Sec borg.

 

Anything short of blob? Odds are the sec borg can lol baton it since they're pretty much invulnerable unless the victim has some sort of EMP, which 9/10 times they do not.

 

If this game were rock paper scissors the fucking sec borgs would be a hand-grenade.

 

I hate them, I fucking hate them, goon had it right, poll please.

 

But Doukan, just git gud, steal a flash from tech sto-

 

Yeah and get 20 minutes for B&E of a restricted area theft and vandalism, because whenever there are sec borgs about the AI is just as bad.

 

[Earthdivine]

 

Quite honestly Secborgs are only good against the stealth antags who usually have means of shutting them down. Secborgs have NO lethal options outside of baton-bashing, leaving them to deal with Traitors, Vampires (who often can jaunt away or poof away to a maintenance) or Changling (EMP Schreech, then bash their head in, they have very little HP to use.)

 

They can't do anything against the other antag types (sans heist) due to their lack of lethal means, making them a glorified bullet sheild for security.

 

I will completely admit Secborgs are usually played by players who aren't fun to play them.

 

Also goon secborgs had other things going for them we dont, like moving faster then players, bigger hp pools, and lethals, allowing them to powercop without fear.

 

I play secborg very often (I am the custom sprite HELIOS) so i know alot about their ins and outs, and they are really underpowered in areas.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

Ya, secborgs really aren't all that scary.

Following up with what Earth said, they also drain their powercell incredibly fast. I feel I spend half the round inside the cyborg recharger.

 

[Doukan]

 

I can't really argue with the good points that can be brought up, there are after all perfectly good ways sec borgs can go about sec borging.

 

In nearly three years of playing SS13 though the trend on my side has become very clear indeed, they're more trouble than they're worth IMO, maybe because the people who seem to play them do so in a certain way but that's more a of general powertrip issue.

 

I mean, not so long ago there was one particular individual who at roundstart made a point of acquiring the captain's spare radio so they could "protect the station's comms" or some such nonsense, similar behaviour proliferates rather rapidly.

 

When was the last time you were arrested by a sec borg that didn't go along the lines of "HALT HALT PEW PEW ZZZZZPT"?

They're purely conductive to bad gameplay.

 

[Vivalas]

When are the senseless security nerfs gonna stop? Secborgs are not super cops. They have to recharge, and can be robusted by pretty much anyone with a flash (or even a bucket of water). They have their niche role to fill, but by no means are they a game changer. They have their upsides and downsides, like regular officers.

[Farya]

 

When was the last time you were arrested by a sec borg that didn't go along the lines of "HALT HALT PEW PEW ZZZZZPT"?

They're purely conductive to bad gameplay.

Considering that borgs are damn slow and that they are programmed robots - its obvious that criminal could not expect long conversation with borg. Borg just not designed for that. Security borg by its nature is designed as force responder for security(as well as door opener). Its designed to respond with force on obvious criminals. Crimesolving is for detective and smarter-then-average officers. Suspect interrogation and brigging is for warden. Security borg is not supposed to do such things. But I still do not argue that secborgs ould be attractive for bad players just because of that.

 

By the way, could we remove hailer as item from sec borg and make it innate verblike ability working similar to security gasmask but with different set of lines? Because its just to unweldy to use now.

 

[Fox McCloud]

 

I support this.

 

Their literal only function is to validsalad everyone and can do so more efficiently than any officer could hope to accomplish.

 

They only have two weaknesses (flash and EMP) and the latter is really only used by a single antag (changeling).

 

+1 for peacekeeper borgs

 

[KasparoVv]

 

I think peacekeeper borgs would be dope.

 

I've no rationale that's not already been said a few times over.

 

[Farya]

 

Secborgs are fine. The problem is how most people play them. I think it would be neat to allow to set different laws to borg according to their type using upload console.

However I see nothing against reworking their equipment to be less agressive. Replace disabler with bolas launcher(eating power a lot), stunbaton with telescopic one. Sec borg should have pepper spray.

And seborgs are not more effective then officers. They are damn slow, they consume charge insanely fast, flashes stunlock them, emp stunlock them as well as deal damage. Borgs have serious problems with persuing someone going EVA.

 

[MrRogueAce]

I've had a secborg arrest me, had officers search my stuff (and take my objectives), then let me free when nobody answered it on if I was completely searched...

[Jakers457]

 

Secborgs aren't that powerful. They have no hands, they can be buckled to a chair or bed then beaten. You can shut them down with a flash, hell if you're a resourceful antag you can either convince someone to blow the borgs or emag them yourselves.

 

There are a variety of ways to deal with a securiborg, to say they're overpowered wouldn't be correct. I would rather fight a Securiborg over say, a minerborg or a mediborg who have the ability to shred the fuck out of you.

 

[JGlitch]

 

Secborgs OP please nerf.

+1

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

I support this.

 

Their literal only function is to validsalad everyone and can do so more efficiently than any officer could hope to accomplish.

 

They only have two weaknesses (flash and EMP) and the latter is really only used by a single antag (changeling).

 

+1 for peacekeeper borgs

Flashbang, laser pointer, stimulants, energy sword/ shield, two people with laser guns, etc..

I might ask you to try playing secborg for a round or two. It's not as OP as you think.

And peacekeeper borgs are literal walking eggplants with their most useful module being a cookie dispenser (unless they're emagged, but even then).

 

[Doukan]

 

Considering that borgs are damn slow and that they are programmed robots - its obvious that criminal could not expect long conversation with borg. Borg just not designed for that. Security borg by its nature is designed as force responder for security(as well as door opener). Its designed to respond with force on obvious criminals. Crimesolving is for detective and smarter-then-average officers. Suspect interrogation and brigging is for warden. Security borg is not supposed to do such things. But I still do not argue that secborgs ould be attractive for bad players just because of that.

 

My point of contention isn't that they're hopelessly OP ( stun immunity/winstick baton aside they're fairly well balanced compared to certain other things cough cough science cough), rather that their inherent features and the people who're often attracted to playing them make them terrible all the same, and worthy of removal for the same reasons as telescience.

 

All it takes is a validsalad/less than ideal attitude to make them shitty to interact with, their own laws are typically given a backseat, SoP usually gets thrown out the window as well because "protectin' teh stayshun" has to come first or some such BS, there's the rare good egg who actually behave like a robot and not a validomatic but I can count the number of times that's happened on one hand.

 

That and the hallway stripping which still happens on occasion and the dumping in processing, I don't know how many wardens suffer high blood pressure due to sec borg negligence but I bet it's a very high number, albeit that's more of a processing issue in general but still something I see in sec borgs more often than not.

 

By the way, could we remove hailer as item from sec borg and make it innate verblike ability working similar to security gasmask but with different set of lines? Because its just to unweldy to use now.

 

I actually kinda like the hailer... It's a great way to hear them coming

 

[Farya]

 

My point of contention isn't that they're hopelessly OP ( stun immunity/winstick baton aside they're fairly well balanced compared to certain other things cough cough science cough), rather that their inherent features and the people who're often attracted to playing them make them terrible all the same, and worthy of removal for the same reasons as telescience.

 

All it takes is a validsalad/less than ideal attitude to make them shitty to interact with, their own laws are typically given a backseat, SoP usually gets thrown out the window as well because "protectin' teh stayshun" has to come first or some such BS, there's the rare good egg who actually behave like a robot and not a validomatic but I can count the number of times that's happened on one hand.

 

That and the hallway stripping which still happens on occasion and the dumping in processing, I don't know how many wardens suffer high blood pressure due to sec borg negligence but I bet it's a very high number, albeit that's more of a processing issue in general but still something I see in sec borgs more often than not.

 

By the way, could we remove hailer as item from sec borg and make it innate verblike ability working similar to security gasmask but with different set of lines? Because its just to unweldy to use now.

 

I actually kinda like the hailer... It's a great way to hear them coming

 

If someone abuse synthetic laws and just play badly - adminhelp it. Its problem of the players not the borgs.

 

And yeah, hailer is fun thing. Thats why I want it to be more convinient to use. Quick button would be much better then what we have now. You have to keep hailer in one of your slots, which increase your power consumption. And switching modules for borg is also much less weldy then manipulating your things as fleshy officer.

 

Edited July 10, 2016 by Guest

[Dinarzad]

 

Security borgs are almost across the board equal to or worse then flesh and blood officers. For every "Upside" they have (The typical cyborg perks)

They also have a glaring downside.

 

For one, they have the least amount of modules to do their job. Comparable, if not beaten by Standard module borgs. A medical borg has all these tools, same as an engineering borg, even JANITOR borgs have more in them. Security borgs are VERY Binary in what they can or cannot do.

They have a Flash, A Taser, Handcuffs, Hailer and Baton.

That's pretty much it. Now just looking at those five things, you're probably noticing an a few things missing from your standard officer's loadout. Police Tape and Pepper Spray, mostly. So that means that they can't even cordon off an area to keep civvies from jumping in blood puddles with their set of stolen galoshes.

They ALSO are lacking in any form of Riot or Area control like a flashbang or the aforementioned pepperspray. Again, limited to spraying tasers, or playing Whack-a-tator. Something Fleshbound officers can acquire very easily, if not have one on hand for emergencies.

 

The sole "Advantage" they have is being a cyborg. Space-worthy, no breathing and immune to chemicals and borggy's all Access Pass. You also make up for this by needing to periodically run off to recharge, and being cripplingly vulnerable to laser points and flashes. (You can aim for a borg's sensors and end up blinding them just like a flash does with a few tries) and clipping a single wire to turn off AI control. On top of being emaggable (And if you do so, you get a metal servant that now has a laser Rifle.)

 

And if you have opposition with ANY kind of EMP? The very easily acquired EMP, either via chemical, Traitor or innate means? (Traitors have EMP options readily available, and lings can EMP all day friggin long.) Or you;re in a nuke squad so you have an ion rifle, well then G fuckin G, no fuckin re, you lose the game. Go home. You have no method of dealing with any antagonist beyond a traitor, vampire or maybe a Wizard. Aliens? you go the fuck home, good luck whacking a hive of xeno morphs. Blob? Good fuckin joke. MEDICAL Borgs handle those threats better then the SECURITY Module.

 

Frustrating to play against, because shitters gonna shit? Sure. Absolutely, you can't just disarm spam to push them over, steal their baton an run off giggling as you can for the more typical Shitcurity officer. Overpowered? Objectively not. Not with the lack of any versatility, Their exploitable weaknesses and their inability to do anything other then the Non-Lethal option, even when a Lethal option SHOULD be taken (Rogue Mechs, Blobs, etc.)

 

[Earthdivine]

 

And peacekeeper borgs are literal walking eggplants with their most useful module being a cookie dispenser (unless they're emagged, but even then).

Uh, when I think Peacekeeper Borgs, i think the Nation ones that can only use Tasers and Handcuffs that don't follow spacelaw.

 

[Machofish]

 

I would be okay with the idea of a nerf to secborgs, but removing them outright is not something I can agree to. Many of the problems experienced with security cyborgs would instead start emerging with what I would assume to be an increase of validhunting from other cyborg modules - such as the standard module and medical cyborg.

 

I think security cyborgs have already received a few nerfs some time ago, although I'll list a few disadvantages they have:

- Security cyborgs are poorly-suited for chasing people down, as they are (or should be) moderately slower than regular crewmembers.

- Currently, I think security cyborgs should have the same durability as any other cyborg, no more and no less.

- Cyborgs must rely on a disabler for ranged combat. While it is debatable whether disablers are more or less effective than taser electrodes, it still makes them lose a certain degree of versatility.

 

If there's any significant validhunting problem relating to Security Cyborgs, I would argue that it is not due to the general design of security cyborgs, but more a problem related to how many security cyborgs are active at any one moment in time. Being able to outrun a security cyborg means little if there's two more waiting for you around the next corner. The problem of too many sec cyborgs often emerges when security turns several captured antags into cyborgs, and the cyborgs all join security.

 

I think security cyborgs would be less of a problem if there was a limit placed on how many security cyborgs can exist at once - like one or two at most. This would hopefully force Security Cyborgs to stay in more of a specialized role, deliberately sent into the most dangerous situations, rather than a legion of well-coordinated validhunting machines who can scour the station for antags with impunity.

 

As Doukan mentioned in an earlier post, another big problem with security cyborgs currently is the player attitude behind them: strong security cyborgs were tolerable when serving the Asimov lawset, as this would often force them to work within very rigid expectations. However, that has changed, and since many of the current default lawsets give cyborg/AI players tremendous freedom to act on their own personal judgements - or sometimes even use their lawset as an excuse to act violently - a number of problems emerge as a result.

 

Overall, I don't think it's sensible to outright remove security cyborgs for being effective at their jobs: by that same logic, janitor borgs, engineering borgs, and medical borgs should also get removed as they're better-equipped than many of their flesh-and-blood crewmembers in their associated departments. If we saw an average of 3-4 medical cyborgs in one round, 3-4 mining cyborgs, or 3-4 engineering cyborgs, then I think there would be threads calling for nerfs to those modules, too.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

And peacekeeper borgs are literal walking eggplants with their most useful module being a cookie dispenser (unless they're emagged, but even then).

Uh, when I think Peacekeeper Borgs, i think the Nation ones that can only use Tasers and Handcuffs that don't follow spacelaw.

/tg/ has a version of peacekeeper borgs that are meant to slow bad guys down or something. Having played them though, they are pretty much worthless (and have rediculous modules like the aforementioned cookie dispenser... or a hug module. What.).

Also, our peacekeeper borgs on Paradise also have a laser gun setting, as well as a sonic jackhammer. I highly doubt Fox was referring to those.

 

[Taaketa]

 

I don't really get the problem here.

 

The summary I'm picking up here, is that some Sec borgs are valid hunting and therefore should be removed? That seems like a terrible reason to remove an entire aspect of gameplay because of player action rather than it's something caused by the module itself. I'd like to see / hear examples of the valid hunting they do though. I've seen it mentioned several times but no real reasons provided.

 

I play BOT||tek regularly and generally I follow a simple pattern for arresting people.

 

1: Do they have a warrant? If yes, arrest, detain and take to sec.

 

2: If no, are they currently commiting a crime. Did someone state they commited a crime? If, yes. Request detainment. Is it gree? Don't pursue, other alerts, pursue, detain. Note resistance.

 

3: Nothing happening, no outstanding arrests? Patrol maint, inspect everything. Record notes constantly.

 

Plenty of people have addressed the weakness of borgs. It's not just EMP or flashes. High-cap cell borgs can maybe stun someone 10 times before their battery runs try and that's if they are fresh from the charger, which is rare. They are MUCH slower until they get VTECH, if they get it. Laser pointers (blinding), even laser tag guns (Fogging), screw driver opening a door are obsecticals against a sec borg.

 

[Earthdivine]

 

 

Also, our peacekeeper borgs on Paradise also have a laser gun setting, as well as a sonic jackhammer. I highly doubt Fox was referring to those.

Yes I just learned that a few hours ago S:

 

[Siaca Ozahara]

 

I feel like the underlying issue here isn't per say balance or an in game conundrum. it comes more from, at least what it appears based on all that i have read so far, an OOC problem. not an IC problem or a balance problem, but who is playing them problem.

 

That being said, i think the issue should be handled in a slightly more reasonable manner. as opposed to removing a cyborg class that is already weak unto itself, because of people abusing it. that just feel like calling water bad and globally banning the consumption of it, because some people have drowned. (PS analogies are my favorite way of trying to get points across.)

 

To be honest, i think the Chief of security or whoever is in charge of security at the moment, should keep an eye on their secborgs as much as the Ai should. further more, should that borg start 'power gaming' one should A-help it (sorry admins, don't mean to create more work for you). Additionally, if they, as a player are over stepping their boundaries a little bit by ignoring space law because they are cyborg the CoS or whoever is in charge of security should order the borg shut down. as not even borgs are outside of space law. in fact, playing a borg should require the player to be able to obey more rules than usual because not only do they have space laws, but they have their laws as a cyborg to obey.

 

My final point is, don't remove a job/cyborg class because some people are awful. don't cut off the flower. the power gamers will just switch modules and do something else to abuse their way to the top. you need to go to the root of the problem, and deal with them OOC. if not a ban, a discussion with them about what the problem is so things can run smoothly.

 

also before i go. i have seen a lot of sec borgs die in my time. granted it isn't 3 years of play time, but i have seen sec borgs get annihilated in combat personally

 

[KasparoVv]

 

Borgs have serious problems with persuing someone going EVA.

 

Unless you're a secborg or mining borg.

 

Also, our peacekeeper borgs on Paradise also have a laser gun setting, as well as a sonic jackhammer. I highly doubt Fox was referring to those.

 

Shit, I thought that's what they were

 

[necaladun]

 

In all seriousness, NOT ONCE have I EVER, not ONCE, EVER, had ANY positive sort of experience with a sec borg.

 

 

Remove greytide. As a sec borg, not once have i ever had any positive experience with them.

 

[Doukan]

 

Remove greytide. As a sec borg, not once have i ever had any positive experience with them.

This doesn't go far enough.

People are the problem, autoban everyone who connects to the server and we can have a truly immursion filled experience.