Remove taser electrodes...?

[FlattestGuitar]

 

We've talked about this in the Discord channel a bit and most people seemed to agree that the electrodes in the tasers are a bit too powerful.

 

As it stands a single click is enough to put someone down from most distances. This mostly poses a problem when the person doesn't see the taze coming and doesn't have enough time to react.

 

Forcing security to use disablers would make chases a bit more exciting and do away with the cheese that is ranged insta-stunning.

 

Discuss.

 

[SigholtStarsong]

It also drastically buffs antags (some of whom are already resistant to instastun), and frankly I want to meet a person who doesn't go down when hit by a TASER, and isn't high on PCP or methamphetamine.

[Da Dman234]

 

I hope you've braced yourself for the impending shitstorm that comes with every suggested taser nerf/buff.

 

I, for one, am quite happy with the solution that the conclusion of the last argument ended in (Which was to introduce the hybrid taser). Though, as someone who never plays security I have a bit of a one sided view. I believe that the tasers sec has access to currently are quite strong, and completely destroy unprepared antags (The keyword there being unprepared), but there are a multitude of ways to negate them, whether via stimulants or antag abilities. As an antag you should always be prepared to deal with security, I don't see why we should punish sec because people are too lazy to prepare to deal with them.

 

That being said, I wouldn't mind a nerf to the amount of charge it holds.

 

[Doukan]

 

People have been complaining about the taser since forever, instatsun still sucks and could do with nerfing +1

 

Individual stuns aren't hard to get over, everyone knows this though hence why baton/tase stun is a thing, it's downright rare not to be get contsa-baton'd while been arrested these days thanks to implant paranoia, it should really have additional drawbacks that aren't just battery size related IMO.

 

[Shadeykins]

 

Tasers have a limited range to compensate for instastun, and honestly?

 

They're arguably one of the least powerful tools in the security's armoury at this point.

 

Disablers are infinite arrange, and even one successful hit slows a target down and makes them hilariously easy to paincrit.

 

This isn't even to bring up the might of the largely underused flashbang, which can be primed, held, and then thrown 7 tiles to instantly pop, stunning everything in a large radius for no small amount of time.

 

Many enemies who are immune to instastun can still be easily taken down with disablers, and kept down quite efficiently.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

I've been here since instastun was re-added to Paradise, and the good old days of halloss ended (And no I'm not looking at this via rose tinted goggles; I very occasionally play on Polaris, where they still have the halloss system.)

Let me show you something:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6865&p=52527&hilit=instastun#p52483

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3672&hilit=instastun#p22027

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3360&p=19546&hilit=instastun#p19456

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3018&p=17051&hilit=instastun#p17001

http://nanotrasen.se/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 944#p16371

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2983&p=16744&hilit=revert#p16713

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/1330

https://github.com/ParadiseSS13/Paradise/pull/90

Put simply?

It's not going to happen. No matter how many threads we make, no matter how much I hate the instastun system, no matter how much we discuss it.

That said, here's my opinion:

Ranged instastun tasers are garbage, and most of the reason I stopped playing as a security officer. It just made it so BORING.

There's a reason why I play as a secborg instead.

Fuck, even /tg/ has had debates about instastun as a mechanic.

They've even tried out different stunning systems in the past:

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/15671 (This was, yes, reverted, but they still tried it out.)

 

It also drastically buffs antags (some of whom are already resistant to instastun), and frankly I want to meet a person who doesn't go down when hit by a TASER, and isn't high on PCP or methamphetamine.

Realism != good gameplay.

 

Edited July 19, 2016 by Guest

[Vivalas]

 

As much as I hate the sec nerfcreep, I can probably drop my bias and get behind this. I agree disablers are more fun than tazers.

 

I don't think tazers are at all overpowered, mind you, they can't shoot through windows and have a very limited range, but for most cases when catching antags offguard it can be anticlimatic. However, I'm still more of a believer of buffing antags rather than nerfing sec, because buffing antags makes the game more interesting and helps antags out, while nerfing sec makes it easier for antags, but also for shitters and self antags who shouldn't be doing what they're doing anyways.

 

I honestly hate the mentality that created this suggestion, but like the suggestion itself. But it will probably get buried in a shitstorm of salt and drama.

 

Edited July 19, 2016 by Guest

[Doukan]

 

Tasers have a limited range to compensate for instastun, and honestly?

 

They're arguably one of the least powerful tools in the security's armoury at this point.

 

Disablers are infinite arrange, and even one successful hit slows a target down and makes them hilariously easy to paincrit.

 

This isn't even to bring up the might of the largely underused flashbang, which can be primed, held, and then thrown 7 tiles to instantly pop, stunning everything in a large radius for no small amount of time.

 

Many enemies who are immune to instastun can still be easily taken down with disablers, and kept down quite efficiently.

Disablers are nice and all but they're inferior outside certain situations, flahsbangs are mostly used for actual crowd control as they should be.

What gets me all sodium'd up the sheer betterness of the taser compared to everything else, it doesn't matter how it's balanced a golden bolt of sheer win will always come out on top unless syndie chems are involved.

 

[Vivalas]

 

Tasers have a limited range to compensate for instastun, and honestly?

 

They're arguably one of the least powerful tools in the security's armoury at this point.

 

Disablers are infinite arrange, and even one successful hit slows a target down and makes them hilariously easy to paincrit.

 

This isn't even to bring up the might of the largely underused flashbang, which can be primed, held, and then thrown 7 tiles to instantly pop, stunning everything in a large radius for no small amount of time.

 

Many enemies who are immune to instastun can still be easily taken down with disablers, and kept down quite efficiently.

Disablers are nice and all but they're inferior outside certain situations, flahsbangs are mostly used for actual crowd control as they should be.

What gets me all sodium'd up the sheer betterness of the taser compared to everything else, it doesn't matter how it's balanced a golden bolt of sheer win will always come out on top unless syndie chems are involved.

 

This really isn't even remotely true though. It is most definitely not a "sheer bolt of pure win". I don't know if you've ever played security, but if you have you're either insanely robust or really damn lucky. What I hate about security nerfs is that they make security susceptible to the tide (which is not at all the direction we should be going, and the fact that they always use a victimizing tone. Sorry you can't steal gloves from tech storage then yakety sax around when sec comes, and then your metabuddy can't break you out. Because this happens all the time. I'm not targetting you but the general population of the people who have the most issues with security - the ones who constantly break the rules.

 

I usually ask those who want to nerf security to actually play it though, which is why I respect Spark's opnion. They are indeed a bit anticlimatic when you taze all the traitors than get drunk in the bar the rest of the round, but I think that they are definitely NOT overpowered.

 

The majority of security nerfs are spawned by people who are on the "recieving" end of the baton, or electrode, with little consideration for those who actually play the most unforgiving, most stressful, and most hated job on the station.

 

[Doukan]

 

-stuff-

I appreciate sec nerfs are often born of "i ded" sentiments but they've usually got some underlying legitimate concern behind them, as you said yourself tasers in their current form just aren't fun and that's how I feel about it too.

 

The halloss system a while back was flawed but preferable mostly because it resulted in longer combat, the golden bolt of win I despise because it kills off fights so quickly for minimum effort, with disabler beams you at least have to aim a couple more times and even flashbangs are dodgeable, electrodes are parasting level boring.

I consider them borderline OP myself because the electrode/cuff/baton spam is the easy go-to thing at the moment, there's not a single way to get out of that once you're in it short of equipment that makes you EoC or some terrible incompetence on sec's part.

 

Self-antags and shitler greytide need exterminating with extreme prejudice but I'd much rather have a sec force that relies on robustness instead than "i win" tier gear and tactics to do it, that's just my perspective though I imagine actual sec players would rather feel safer.

 

[Coldflame]

If this happens, antags should lose ranged instastun as well.

[KasparoVv]

 

I died AGAIN guys, can you PLEASE nerf tasers? For real this time?

 

 

 

I like them the way they are. I get my ass handed to me on a silver platter by tasers loads of times when I just can't juke hard enough and that's just how it is. Sometimes you just need to learn to let go, right?

 

I don't mind posting my sentiments on every new taser meme thread, got me living the copy paste deja-vu life

 

[Jakers457]

 

I think the auto-aim balances things quite nicely.

 

As someone who's played on servers where Security is basically vindicated for even trying to have a little sense of self preservation or duty. I've experienced tazers that are stupidly weak, and take almost an entire charge to down people who are usually armed or have the intent to drop you on the floor and kill you. It would usually mean after every chase, you had to go back to Sec for a recharge which was a major ball ache given the size of the station and the amount of ungrateful crewmembers screaming 'HALP' without disclosing their situation.

 

With Paradise and it's lack of respawning, Security are doubly at risk because they don't have the 'muh arpee' protection you might find on servers with super weak tazers. So you could easily find yourself in a narrow tunnel with antag who's toting a flamer and a stunprod. Your flash is shit and you need to take him down before you're a husked corpse in space? The tazer works for that. I mean, if we get the tazer nerfed then a lot of things will need to be nerfed to balance things out. Or change Security's SoP to allow them to hit harder without getting into trouble.

 

[FPK]

 

Stuns in any videogame suck. Stuns in ss13 are absolute cancer. As a security player, idgaf what you people do to the tazers. One way or the other, security/antags are going to find a way to incapacitate relatively helpless targets, with the justification that they should have seen it coming.

 

I do like Goon's tazers, but I'm biased towards their combat system and everything else on goon holy fuck it's awesome.

 

[Rumiluntti]

 

I still think sec should start with disablers, you know the things we actually have in the code.

Hybrid tasers could be a RnD upgrade or even a cargo thing.

 

[Doukan]

 

If this happens, antags should lose ranged instastun as well.

I think the only thing that fits into that category is the mini e-bow, unless you count revolver-groin shots.

Is it long ranged though? I've never actually seen it being fired down any hallways.

 

[Sothangel]

 

I still think sec should start with disablers, you know the things we actually have in the code.

Hybrid tasers could be a RnD upgrade or even a cargo thing.

 

I would be very interested to see how this works out in reality.

 

Since we're talking about stuns, what about batons and prods? They obviously have the downside of having to be in melee range, but any changeling with a stunprod is going to kill you if they hit you, and any officer with one is going to kill brig your sorry arse if they hit you with theirs. Is there any desire to change these, at all?

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

I don't really care about stunbatons/ stunprods.

That said, I'd be willing to try out putting those on stamina damage as well. Maybe 2 hits to down? Don't want to nerf those too much.

 

[Vivalas]

 

If this happens, antags should lose ranged instastun as well.

I think the only thing that fits into that category is the mini e-bow, unless you count revolver-groin shots.

Is it long ranged though? I've never actually seen it being fired down any hallways.

 

Have you ever seen a changeling/shadowling/wizard/cultist before?

 

I mean honestly this won't change much. If this gets passed I'm just gonna start lobbing flashbangs at everything that moves.

 

[pinatacolada]

tasers have ass range and their crap speed makes them a joke to dodge, and you only have 6 shots on them if you commit to taser only. It's probably your fault if you got in range of one, either that or the other guy did something really cleaver to close on you without you noticing. Also, seriously, not expecting a taser from a chase where the officer actually has the gun out, and is in range? plis

[saywat_the_15th]

 

Alright, my security player opinion:

 

The low ammo and limited range in my opinion are enough.

In chases disabler beams are better than the short range taser electrodes. In close quarters baton is better than electrodes.

Tasers can be countered by just basically running like a headless chicken untill the officer has wasted all his charge.

 

Also situations where for example a traitor pulls out a .357 and starts blasting you, you are dead before you can land enough disabler beams on him.

 

But i mean, we could do a test period on this.

 

EDIT: i mean yes, electrodes do stun you instantly which usually leads to cuffing. They are powerfull. But they are not a wonder weapon, they can be countered.

 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Guest

[Jakers457]

If Tazers get nerfed. Sec players will turn to more extreme measures to avoid being knocked out of the round.

[Spacemanspark]

No they won't. They certainly didn't when we had halloss.

[Fox McCloud]

 

No they won't. They certainly didn't when we had halloss.

 

This isn't completely true; flashbangs were used far more heavily when we had halloss tasers than they are currently.

 

For those who don't know how halloss worked, here's a quick rundown:

 

Old halloss was insanely more powerful than a disabler beam. One shot did 60 damage (if you hit the head), and it took 100 to down someone. That said, halloss had 2x the pain, so, once you got shot once, you moved at the speed of being in softcrit (like if you had 120 damage on your person), meaning you were ultra slow. In addition to that it also had secondary independent slow tacked onto *that*.....anddd because your pain damage was so high you'd also start going into shock ("the pain" "just end it all!", "you feel like you're about to die" messages) which had the chance to weaken you, give you blurry eyes, etc.

 

Once you hit 100 total halloss, you were fully paralyzed---ie: blacked out (not weakened) for 20 cycles (40 seconds).

 

So yes, they required multiple hits, but they were toxic as hell because once you were shot once, you were pretty much done, with no way to recover from it (unlike instatun), because of how tied into the damage+pain system it was. Vamp/changeling/traitor anti-stun mechanics were 100% useless against old halloss.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

Hence I suggested nerfing it at one point or another, instead of outright removing it if you felt it was overpowered (And if you're saying it was overpowered, why are you saying people were resorting to flashbangs more often? I didn't really see them abused any more than they are now).

 

And no, I had many instances where I was able to fight back even when caught off guard and taken a hit, when we had halloss (keeping in mind that I didn't wear security armor, and instead always leaned towards wearing a dark blue jumpsuit, a waistcoat, and a beret as a sec officer, unless shit REALLY hit the fan). You were not just "out after one hit", you could very well fight back. There's even a thread somewhere on the forums with someone complaining about halloss being ridiculous, claiming they took around 4-5 hits before they went down (this was apparently soon after halloss was ported to Paradise, so I don't know if any major changes were done between then). Not to mention we had the (albeit meh) RNG system that caused you to miss half of your shots, on top of the fact that many people didn't aim for the head (and were even discouraged from doing so).

 

We also had tramadol, which I recall you specifically nerfing heavily/ removing because people were using it to outright cheese getting out of halloss. It was also pretty easy to obtain, and lasted a long time with just a mere 5u. There were ways of fighting against halloss, they were removed, and then the system itself ended up removed.

 

And flashbangs, at the time, also had that terrible, TERRIBLE effect of making literally everyone in range, no matter what gear they had on, freeze in place if they weren't knocked over. It was more detrimental than it was a help to security.

 

This all said, I'm not saying halloss needs to be re-instated, I'm well aware that's not happening anytime soon. We've all been through this song and dance before. Hell, I'm even fine with the melee instastuns. I'm saying we should minimize access to ranged instastun because it, at least for me, makes security gameplay less challenging. It promotes security just boldly rushing at their targets without a second thought, and quite honestly they really can unless said target has a traitor chem, an eshield or a dual-esword. Certain other antags will get utterly destroyed due to instastun, because they can't fight back unless they themselves obtain instastun (Vox traders and vampires are the two that come to mind. I say vampires because the stun they do get is extremely weak and really only good for a single target, otherwise you get swamped. I see many vampires carrying around a stunprod, and for ample reason. Vox raiders, on the other hand, get a twig shooter and a barely useful chem shooter, with limited chemicals. The telebaton doesn't even come close to making up for that). I /do/ agree with Coldflame in that certain antags would need their instastun options reconsidered and whatnot (namely the traitor's ebow comes to mind [which I already have an idea or two for]. Things like nukies or wizards should remain mostly the same. They never really win anyways, unless they just bumrush), but I admit I'm not entirely sure how to do that for all of them. Maybe I'll think about that after I've gotten some sleep.

 

I still stand by this argument.

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by Guest