Remove Vulpkanin Darksight/Add a disadvantage

[Shadeykins]

 

Presently, Vulpkanin have darksight.

 

This allows them to see clearly up to 8 tiles in complete darkness, while wearing Optical Meson Scanners (a poor man's NV).

 

While minor, this effectively makes them a Human+ as they have no disadvantages.

 

They should either have a heat or cold sensitivity, or this should be removed outright.

 

[Vivalas]

I don't like Vulp but besides my bias, they shouldn't have an advantage without any disadvantages.

[LittleBigKid2000]

 

Quick comparison

 

- Humans

Cold levels (1, 2, and 3) (Lower is better): 260, 200, 120

Heat levels (Higher is better): 360, 400, 460

Does not have sharp unarmed attacks

Darksight: 2

Alcohol intensity: 1

 

- Unathi

Cold levels: 280, 220, 140

Heat levels: 380, 420, 480

Has sharp unarmed attacks

Darksight: 3

Alcohol intensity: 0.8

Can consume mice, lizards, chicks, chickens, crabs, butterflies, parrots, and tribbles

 

- Tajara

Cold levels: 240, 180, 100

Heat levels: 340, 380, 440

Has sharp unarmed attacks

Darksight: 8

Alcohol intensity: 1.4

Can consume mice, chicks, butterfly, parrots, and tribbles

 

- Vulpkanin

Has sharp unarmed attacks

Darksight: 8

Alcohol intensity: 1.4

Can consume mice, lizards, chicks, chickens, crabs, butterflies, parrots, and tribbles

 

- Skrell

Other than 4.0 alcohol intensity, fucking nothing.

 

- Vox

Cold levels: 80, 50, 0

Immune to low pressure.

Require oxygen instead of nitrogen. Oxygen is poisonous. Spawns with appropriate internals.

Cannot be cloned. Brain transplants won't work.

Has sharp unarmed attacks

Alcohol intensity: 1.6

 

- Kidan

Has sharp unarmed attacks.

0.8 brute damage modifier. Does not stack.

Alcohol intensity: 0.5

 

- Slime people

Cold levels: 280, 240, 200, 3x damage from cold

Does not breathe

Water instead of blood

Only organ is their brain

Brain takes 150% damage

Can regrow limbs at a large hunger cost. Must stay still while the limb regrows

 

That was the objective information. Now for my opinions.

Giving Vulpkanin cold resistance and heat sensitivity, or really doing anything minor with their heat/cold resistance/sensitivity would basically make them Tajaran/Unathi 3.0. I say either give them something that hasn't been done twice already or don't change them at all. Slight heat/cold resistance/sensitivity is hardly a game changer, as usually the only time heat/cold is affects much is when you're on fire, in space, or both somehow, and slight heat/cold resistances don't affect those things at all.

 

[FPK]

Increase their food consumption rate, or make them a little weaker physically.

[HugoLuman]

Perhaps up their alcohol intensity? While this might sound minor, alcohol is a very commonly available reagent. It should not be so high as to preclude RP drinking, but it could be high enough that they'll drop faster than the other anthro races if poisoned with it

[LittleBigKid2000]

 

Perhaps up their alcohol intensity? While this might sound minor, alcohol is a very commonly available reagent. It should not be so high as to preclude RP drinking, but it could be high enough that they'll drop faster than the other anthro races if poisoned with it

 

It's already at 1.4. Vox (with 1.6) and Skrell (4.0) are the only species with weaker livers.

 

[Lyricjupiter3]

 

Oh god this is every race argument ever.

 

Here's the main issue, the perks and disadvantages mean nadda, nothing. So what they can see an extra tile in the dark, hardly a game-changer in any way.

 

We complain IPC's, Voxes, the non-reskined races are OP, thats fair. Saying one of the reskined human races having any kind of meaningful advantage however is quite incorrect. You never see a situation where you need heat resistance without taking damage from something else, same with cold.

 

I say the races need a rework, make the perks and disadvantages mean something rather then some minor numbers they changed to try and make them look different statistically to humans. But that is not going to happen.

 

[tristan1333]

Seeing an extra tile can mean a really big difference Lyricjupiter. I suggested last night that Vulps at a certain threshold of burn damage from 1 source (10), lights them up and gives them spacenam flashbacks. They'd need a big buff of course. I don't say that to hate on vulps, I think it'd be an honestly interesting mechanic that could be backed up with a buff. EDIT: Also I think Vox should have FORCED tanks on their back to balance out the spacewalking.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Guest

[Farya]

Not only vulps, but skrell, unathi and tajaran needs some rework. For now they just have small gimmicks or nothing at all. Their downsides changes nothing at all so they feels like resprited humans.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Guest

[HugoLuman]

 

Perhaps up their alcohol intensity? While this might sound minor, alcohol is a very commonly available reagent. It should not be so high as to preclude RP drinking, but it could be high enough that they'll drop faster than the other anthro races if poisoned with it

 

It's already at 1.4. Vox (with 1.6) and Skrell (4.0) are the only species with weaker livers.

 

Thing is, that's the exact same as the value for Tajara. So, bumping it up by .1 or .2 would differentiate them from both

 

Not onlu vulps, but skrell, unathi and tajaran needs some rework. For now they just have small gimmicks or nothing at all. Their downsides changes nothing at all so they feels like resprited humans.

 

There are two camps in the maintainers. One camp holds that the races should have more significant differences, as this would make gameplay more interesting. The other camp holds that racial differences should be relatively inconsequential to ensure balance, and posits that existing differences are probably already a bit too much.

 

[Farya]

 

There are two camps in the maintainers. One camp holds that the races should have more significant differences, as this would make gameplay more interesting. The other camp holds that racial differences should be relatively inconsequential to ensure balance, and posits that existing differences are probably already a bit too much.

We are not bay where its possible to make every race unique and different from human by only RP and lorewise measures. The only way to make races "alien" enough is to make them unique codewise, which will affect the gameplay accordingly.

Plasmamen, vox, kidan, ipc, greys, drask and dionea are such races. Vulp, tajaran and unathi are not. And "they are free from karma races" would not work here. Diona have very different gameplay from human and even slightly OP but its a free for all race. While plasmamen is mostly human with breath plasma and burn without his snowflaek suit.

 

[davidchan]

 

To be hundred percent honest I could care less if we are bay or not. Non-human species SHOULD feel like you are taking on a disadvantage in some form or another, Vulps are straight upgrades which only goes more into why wouldn't you just play them?

 

Obviously Skrell need some kind of rework to make them more than just humans with tentacles for hair, but given how vulps always try to deflect criticism by saying other species are power gamers because they get x buffs, and come to realize the supposed debuffs they got didn't take place at all? I can't say I'm surprised, just disappointed.

 

[Shadeykins]

 

While I absolutely, ABSOLUTELY agree with Farya that races should have greater mechanical differences it's just not going to happen.

 

In the interim we should look at balancing problems.

 

As to "an extra tile in the dark", it is not an extra tile, it is 8 extra tiles with mesons, effectively giving them free NV vision.

 

[Lyricjupiter3]

 

To be hundred percent honest I could care less if we are bay or not. Non-human species SHOULD feel like you are taking on a disadvantage in some form or another, Vulps are straight upgrades which only goes more into why wouldn't you just play them?

 

 

Disadvange and advantage. Really it should be like all other non-human races (Example Vox been space-proof but super hard to revive or them tree things been slow but almost un-robustable) However this would mean work and the simple fact is there is two different groups in this argument, one whom want evenness with humans and other other whom want distinction between races, and in the mean-time we get a, half half almost that makes no-one happy.

 

But how many times has this come up in suggestions? Many times. Do I feel us talking about it now will change anything? Nope.

 

[Doukan]

 

Make them lethally allergic to coffee/chocolate and make them get hungrier faster (that's carnivores for you).

More gimmicky drawbacks might see people play as/against them more interestingly, it's hilarious to murder a skrell with booze and used to even more fun to dexalin + a vox to hell, we need more stuff like it.

 

[FoS]

 

I'm getting the impression that most of you weren't around when some races actually had mechanical differences and it was quite honestly pretty terrible.

 

Vox leap, Slime vent crawl, Kidan's built in rioty-lol-you-cant-touch-me armor. All things that made people pick races like those purely for abusing the things that made them "unique". I would much rather people pick races because they actually like the race for what it is and not what mechanics it offers them. From what I understand things are pretty limited when it comes to what you can do to set something apart and make it different while not making it obnoxiously over/underpowered.

 

Does darksight even really come into play that often? Is it really something that matters or doesn't it also fall in line with cold/heat in the grand scheme of things that generally aren't noticeable? I also do not at all understand how so many people complain that vulp are too "Earth-like" yet plenty seem to suggest things like certain foods/drinks being toxic to them. They're not earth creatures/pet dogs.

 

[Shadeykins]

 

But how many times has this come up in suggestions? Many times. Do I feel us talking about it now will change anything? Nope.

 

Vulpkanin darksight has never, ever come up in suggestions - primarily because it's not noted down anywhere except in the datum for the species. Flattest and I wrote the initial lore on them and weren't even aware of this mechanical difference.

 

I'm getting the impression that most of you weren't around when some races actually had mechanical differences and it was quite honestly pretty terrible.

 

Vox leap, Slime vent crawl, Kidan's built in rioty-lol-you-cant-touch-me armor. All things that made people pick races like those purely for abusing the things that made them "unique". I would much rather people pick races because they actually like the race for what it is and not what mechanics it offers them. From what I understand things are pretty limited when it comes to what you can do to set something apart and make it different while not making it obnoxiously over/underpowered.

 

Does darksight even really come into play that often? Is it really something that matters or doesn't it also fall in line with cold/heat in the grand scheme of things that generally aren't noticeable? I also do not at all understand how so many people complain that vulp are too "Earth-like" yet plenty seem to suggest things like certain foods/drinks being toxic to them. They're not earth creatures/pet dogs.

 

Nobody is advocating for silly, over the top powers. They're advocating for differences that set species apart. The only fundamentally different races on Para are IPC's and Slime People (thanks to a recent PR), followed by Vox (Who could arguably stand to be allergic to Salbutamol/Dexalin again).

 

As for darksight, it's irrelevant whether or not it comes into play that often, what is relevant is that Vulpkanin as they stand are a straight mechanical upgrade to humans, which is a no-no.

 

It also goes, rather directly against the initial PR introducing Vulpkanin where it was stated Vulpkanin have "no unique abilities/strengths/weaknesses" prior to merging.

 

And before we go off on a limb about "teh Vulpkanin hate!!", one of my most played characters is of the aforementioned species.

 

Human+ is bad, the Darksight should be balanced out with something, or removed. (Alcohol is not a balance).

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by Guest

[Doukan]

 

I'm getting the impression that most of you weren't around when some races actually had mechanical differences and it was quite honestly pretty terrible.

 

Vox leap, Slime vent crawl, Kidan's built in rioty-lol-you-cant-touch-me armor. All things that made people pick races like those purely for abusing the things that made them "unique". I would much rather people pick races because they actually like the race for what it is and not what mechanics it offers them. From what I understand things are pretty limited when it comes to what you can do to set something apart and make it different while not making it obnoxiously over/underpowered.

 

Does darksight even really come into play that often? Is it really something that matters or doesn't it also fall in line with cold/heat in the grand scheme of things that generally aren't noticeable? I also do not at all understand how so many people complain that vulp are too "Earth-like" yet plenty seem to suggest things like certain foods/drinks being toxic to them. They're not earth creatures/pet dogs.

I was around at the time and those "features" seemed mostly to do with good ideas being not so well implemented (or not balanced before porting).

Little things like the skrell not having livers and the greys having weak punches are good and stick around longer, the not so good stuff like vox being space proof sticks around because the admins metabuddies are all vox players the advantages they confer aren't abused all that much really.

 

As of right now the vulps get borderline free ghetto NV and that's just not fair, doesn't matter if it's a big deal or not it still should be looked at, IRL is a great resource to draws ideas from and it's not as if future space-chocolate is gonna be the same as the modern day.

But those are all lore concerns chocolate vulnerability would be a cool thing IMO so why not is what I'm wondering.

 

[FoS]

 

Nobody is advocating for silly, over the top powers. They're advocating for differences that set species apart. The only fundamentally different races on Para are IPC's and Slime People (thanks to a recent PR), followed by Vox (Who could arguably stand to be allergic to Salbutamol/Dexalin again).

 

Except what are you going to add that isn't going to be impossible to implement or a waste of time to code because it doesn't actually influence anything or come into effect ever?

 

As for darksight, it's irrelevant whether or not it comes into play that often, what is relevant is that Vulpkanin as they stand are a straight mechanical upgrade to humans, which is a no-no.

What is the point in having an advantage or disadvantage that doesn't ever noticeably have any impact on the round? Heat/Cold/ resistances are this way. They have pretty much no impact. You can hardly call them a disadvantage, they basically don't even exist.

 

It also goes, rather directly against the initial PR introducing Vulpkanin where it was stated Vulpkanin have "no unique abilities/strengths/weaknesses" prior to merging.

Actually vulp were originally going to have some unique traits and cost karma but the people commenting on the PR didn't seem keen on that idea and we ended up with what we have now. Things were originally proposed but they were shot down by the community.

 

At the end of the day I'd rather see darksight just be removed but there's still a feature freeze so I guess that's something that wouldn't happen for a while anyways.

 

[Shadeykins]

 

Feature freeze is problematic, yes.

 

Coders wouldn't likely jump for it, but organs are a great place to start making differences between species relevant.

 

[tristan1333]

Yeah I don't think Vox Leap or Vent Crawl should be considered relevant to discussion. Active abilities are generally bad. Vulps/Tarj lighting up like nam would be a good debuff for a sizable buff. That's the only obvious one I can think of. Not for furry hate, but for interesting mechanics. Vox having to wear the big back tanks would more than make up for their spacewalking capabilities. I think it'd be cool if Unathi were resistant to infections, or almost outright immune to them, maybe being alot more susceptible to toxins causing them a slew of symptons making them convulse etc., skrell I've got no clue.

[Farya]

 

Yeah I don't think Vox Leap or Vent Crawl should be considered relevant to discussion. Active abilities are generally bad. Vulps/Tarj lighting up like nam would be a good debuff for a sizable buff. That's the only obvious one I can think of. Not for furry hate, but for interesting mechanics. Vox having to wear the big back tanks would more than make up for their spacewalking capabilities. I think it'd be cool if Unathi were resistant to infections, or almost outright immune to them, maybe being alot more susceptible to toxins causing them a slew of symptons making them convulse etc., skrell I've got no clue.

Unathi might have poor eyesight. And "need glasses" will make it even worse. But they will be more resilent to poison and infeсtions.

 

[HugoLuman]

 

Free NV is kinda a big deal because if you find mesons in maint, you get a huge advantage over people going around with their PDA light.

 

I'd still advocate for the alcohol thing on grounds of further differentiating them from Tajara. Faster food consumption could be interesting, since no one else really has that mechanic. By the burning thing, do you mean that the game would treat them like they're always covered in welder fuel?

 

[LittleBigKid2000]

 

Make them lethally allergic to coffee/chocolate and make them get hungrier faster (that's carnivores for you).

 

Vulpkanin are omnivores (But prefer meat) in lore and in code (If the diet flag actually did anything).

 

[Doukan]

 

Make them lethally allergic to coffee/chocolate and make them get hungrier faster (that's carnivores for you).

 

Vulpkanin are omnivores (But prefer meat) in lore and in code (If the diet flag actually did anything).

So are dogs IRL, and us, even though we're supposed to be Savannah dwelling herbivore apes.

I mean even something as small as lactose intolerance would be good, have them fart when they ingest milk, that'd do.