Remove Vulpkanin Darksight/Add a disadvantage

[scrubmcnoob]

 

The trivial discussion of all these races is derailing the thread from the main point.

The point, of this thread, is that Vulps are objectively better because they have 8 tile darksight and get better unarmed damage without the need of cutting gloves.

 

I rather have Vulps turned from Human+ to a literal resprited Human until a consensus can be made as to what balanced specie specific traits they should have.

 

After the feature freeze that is.

 

[improvedname]

 

I have a idea here liiiiisten

-remove 8 tiles darksight

-add chocolate poisoning at 10 units of chocolate

-moar cold resistance

-Fire stacks more on you thus harder to make out since fur yo its flammable

 

HERE PERFECT BALANCED AND ORGINAL

 

[Lyricjupiter3]

 

I have a idea here liiiiisten

-remove 8 tiles darksight

-add chocolate poisoning at 10 units of chocolate

-moar cold resistance

-Fire stacks more on you thus harder to make out since fur yo its flammable

 

HERE PERFECT BALANCED AND ORGINAL

 

Annnd that would be adding a disadvantage without an advantage.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

A number of the ideas for differentiation are good, the only problem is getting the two camps or even one camp on the github to agree, and that's if the feature freeze wasn't in effect. There's one group that seems to think that the current stats are way too much or at least that things should be more or less lore based and that mechanical differences should be more or less obsolete for most cases. The other camp being one that thinks races should have more of a mechanical difference over a lore difference alone to further differentiate things. This has already been stated, and personal opinion varies greatly depending on (if you were here for it) how you saw the abilities as they were. I am of the personal opinion that Vox leap, Slime ventcrawl, and Kidan riotshield stuff, weren't all that bad (Yes, I was here for it), and actually made things a bit interesting, although I do agree with Skittles that it does cause people to go for the race more for the advantages rather than the look and feel of the race. Currently, one of the least powerful races seems to be Greys, wimpy punches, weakness to water and immunity to acid that does not work at all, and local only telepathy, which doesn't actually do much as you can just talk to people in the room anyway, and really just serves to communicate privately, which, in some cases is a big benefit, but in the more common circumstances, it's just a bit of flavor. This is compared to the previously station-wide telepathy, although that had its bugs as well, considering they could see nukies in that list iirc.

 

Night Vision, as it stands, really doesn't do all that much, yes, if you find mesons it's better than only having a PDA light, but considering the amount of flashlights, flares, penlights, and other light sources, it's not that much of a stretch to assume that just about anybody could grab enough lights to provide the exact same effect. Then again, if you do happen to find mesons in maint, you already have a huge advantage over people with only their PDA light, as you still have full brightness, and if you're trying to find, chase, or avoid somebody, you can see everything around them already due to the mesons regardless of what race you are because they show all the normally visible lit tiles in full brightness. The amount of times having night vision comes into play in terms of gaining an advantage over somebody is fairly low compared to how often factors like armor, weaponry, or even lack there of comes into play way more often in terms of running into or running away from things. Being able to see more tiles in an area as cramped as maintenance usually doesn't help considering maintenance already has enough corners to block your view when wearing mesons anyway.

 

All of that rant said, faster food consumption could be a thing, but I think the burning would be a bit too much as burn damage is incredibly common and there's no real buff that warrants something that debilitating. They have night vision, their own language, and punches that count as sharp attacks, nothing so severe as to make it necessary to make them significantly weaker. As vulps stand, if you try to stand on the impossible tightrope that is trying to please both sides without starting something from nothing, Vulps seem alright in terms of how they are balance wise, as they really don't have any major, gamebreaking buffs or debuffs. It'd probably be better to look at something that has way too many positives or way too many negatives that are massively game affecting over looking at night vision, such as the aforementioned weakness of Greys, or some of the stronger points of Diona, etc.

 

That said, remember that every race has its regulars, and discussing a potential change will cause people to have issues, be it for or against that change. If it's a buff, expect most people who don't play that race to be asking something along the lines of "Does Race X really need this?", while the race regulars might be pushing for it if it seems to fit and vice versa if it's a nerf. This is, of course, assuming that everything goes normal and things are a good idea and debateable for either side in the first place.

 

tl;dr I don't think this needs to happen really, and some of the suggested changes are cool but the suggested buffs need downsides to them and the suggested downsides need buffs to them, both of which should have the one most important feature, impacting the actual way the race plays in a common round.

 

[necaladun]

 

It also goes, rather directly against the initial PR introducing Vulpkanin where it was stated Vulpkanin have "no unique abilities/strengths/weaknesses" prior to merging.

 

None of their abilities, strengths, or weaknesses, are unique. This was as opposed to several of the suggestions that were unique abilities.

 

What is the point in having an advantage or disadvantage that doesn't ever noticeably have any impact on the round? Heat/Cold/ resistances are this way. They have pretty much no impact. You can hardly call them a disadvantage, they basically don't even exist.

 

 

Very much this - Taj, Vulp, and Unathi, all have a very slight advantage over the norm, but nothing game breaking at all.

 

Vulp should have X/Y/Z

 

 

Some suggestions here that are terrible, some that are decent. Nothing I find particularly jumps out at me as a perfect fit for both mechanics and to give them a unique feel.

 

[IcyV]

 

I find it very interesting that the focus is specifically on Vulp here. Tajarans have had darkvision for years and years and years and I've never once seen an argument against it for them, even when their unarmed damage was actually relevant. This is a very unique situation that I've only ever seen come up since Vulp have come into existence.

 

There are quite a few species that have essentially the exact same set of benefit/disadvantage. In the case of Skrell, it's only disadvantage. Meanwhile we're ignoring the bigger picture of species like IPC which are objectively unbalanced by a much larger degree with no attempt to balance them due to the sheer uproar every time it's attempted.

 

I'm by no means against adding interesting features or mechanics to species but pretty much everything here is the wrong way to go about it. Darkvision is a super minor feature that is entirely reliant on having an item that anyone can take from you in a moment. Anyone with a flashlight will have the exact same "advantage" as a species with darkvision.

 

Nobody is arguing that the species is "unbalanced." It is. It just happens to be by the tiniest margin possible. The tiniest of unbalanced features is what makes each species interesting to play. They have a *thing* that makes them stand out and gives people a reason to want to play them.

 

[Shadeykins]

 

I find it very interesting that the focus is specifically on Vulp here. Tajarans have had darkvision for years and years and years and I've never once seen an argument against it for them, even when their unarmed damage was actually relevant. This is a very unique situation that I've only ever seen come up since Vulp have come into existence.

 

There are quite a few species that have essentially the exact same set of benefit/disadvantage. In the case of Skrell, it's only disadvantage. Meanwhile we're ignoring the bigger picture of species like IPC which are objectively unbalanced by a much larger degree with no attempt to balance them due to the sheer uproar every time it's attempted.

 

I'm by no means against adding interesting features or mechanics to species but pretty much everything here is the wrong way to go about it. Darkvision is a super minor feature that is entirely reliant on having an item that anyone can take from you in a moment. Anyone with a flashlight will have the exact same "advantage" as a species with darkvision.

 

Nobody is arguing that the species is "unbalanced." It is. It just happens to be by the tiniest margin possible. The tiniest of unbalanced features is what makes each species interesting to play. They have a *thing* that makes them stand out and gives people a reason to want to play them.

 

Tajarans also have a mechanical downside, and prior to Fox changing it had to go through the hassle of cutting gloves and wearing sandals.

 

Vulpkanin are presently, absolutely better than humans in their current state.

 

That is why this thread is only focusing on Vulp.

 

IPC's take a massive amount of burn/brute damage in comparison, and EMP's instakill them. Their inability to process reagents is also a HUGE debuff and makes traitoring with them almost impossible because it denies you of any and all anti-stun. I heartily recommend you spend a few months playing an IPC, and go back to an organic - the ability to process reagents is an absolutely massive boon, even at the cost of the occasional parapen/syringe gun.

 

Human is the standard race, there should be no human+. Vulpkanin, presently, are human+.

 

Having a superior race with no downsides is not interesting, it is poor design.

 

Very much this - Taj, Vulp, and Unathi, all have a very slight advantage over the norm, but nothing game breaking at all.

 

Tajaran and Unathi have downsides in the form of cold/heat sensitivity (Which does murder your fairly hard in atmos related incidents, compared to humans).

 

Vulp don't. Gamebreaking? No, but they're still Human+ and should either receive a disadvantage to balance that out or have their advantages weaned.

 

Even something as benign as them being allergic to chocolate would be adequate. It would at least be something.

 

[IcyV]

 

Tajarans also have a mechanical downside, and prior to Fox changing it had to go through the hassle of cutting gloves and wearing sandals.

 

Vulpkanin are presently, absolutely better than humans in their current state.

 

Entirely and fully opinion. Heat differences will virtually never come into play. For all intents and purposes, Tajaran are functionally the same as Vulp.

 

massive amount of burn/brute damage in comparison

 

50% more. I wouldn't really call it massive.

 

EMP's instakill them

 

Kind of like how a there is a massive amount of ways to nearly instantly kill an organic with things that IPCs are immune to.

 

it denies you of any and all anti-stun.

 

Degreaser.

 

Basically we have this list NO_BREATHE | NO_SCAN | NO_BLOOD | NO_PAIN | NO_DNA | NO_POISON | RADIMMUNE

countered by taking ~50% more brute and burn that will largely lead to lost limbs which won't stop them.

 

And back to the others. The difference between Human, Skrell, Vulp, Taj, and Unathi is in alcohol tolerance, how they handle heat, sharpness, and darkvision. Heat never comes into play. On Paradise we can pretty much throw that out the window with how our heating works. Sharpness is borderline irrelevant as well. Bleeding simply won't do anything over any relevant period of time. You would need to go a significant portion of the round without any form of healing for specifically the bleeding to be noticed. The darkvision is a valid balancing concern but still stands out to make them interesting species. The alcohol tolerance barely makes sense and is actually the most significant of them all. You can kill some of these species with about two bottles of drinks.

 

cold/heat sensitivity (Which does murder your fairly hard in atmos related incidents, compared to humans).

 

They don't take damage any faster as far as I'm aware. It's purely a line for *when* they start to take it. Unless it's super controlled the difference in how fast they die is going to be entirely on when the temperature changed for them, just like any species.

 

Vulp don't. Gamebreaking? No, but they're still Human+ and should either receive a disadvantage to balance that out or have their advantages weaned.

 

Even something as benign as them being allergic to chocolate would be adequate. It would at least be something.

 

Let's just look at Tajarans. The heat/cold cancels itself out as both an advantage and disadvantage paired together. They now have sharp claws and darkvision as advantages without corresponding disadvantages. What is this balanced by? It's in the exact same boat as Vulp. I fail to see how they are an entirely separate issue when it's the exact same scenario.

 

You know what this adds up to? That these species are Human+. If you stripped them of these specific traits, they would be human.

 

[davidchan]

 

I question who the heck thought dogs should get darkvision, dogs have terrible eyesight and function even worse in darkness.

 

That said, what if we make it so darkvision as a racial trait confers a vulnerbility to hand flashes actually stun instead of confuse and flashlighting someone would confuse if they had darkvision. Flash protection would prevent this but also disable darkvision

 

Also @icyv thinking IPCs are human+ or OP... HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!

 

Like have you even played ipcs recently? When's the last time you died through a wall because a tator? Or a ventcralwing changling emp'd you? The number of debuffs and restrictions on IPCs only make them op to people who don't fucking understand how they work and what they give up.

 

[IcyV]

 

Also @icyv thinking IPCs are human+ or OP... HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!

 

I don't recall saying either.

 

[HugoLuman]

 

I hate to be that guy, but you kinda did

Basically we have this list NO_BREATHE | NO_SCAN | NO_BLOOD | NO_PAIN | NO_DNA | NO_POISON | RADIMMUNE

countered by taking ~50% more brute and burn that will largely lead to lost limbs which won't stop them.

 

 

[IcyV]

 

snip

 

I stated the primary features of the species from a single file. I didn't call it OP or call it some variant Human+. I find it fascinating that you got the impression I called it OP just by listing the primary traits it has. Kinda says a lot.

 

[improvedname]

 

I have a idea here liiiiisten

-remove 8 tiles darksight

-add chocolate poisoning at 10 units of chocolate

-moar cold resistance

-Fire stacks more on you thus harder to make out since fur yo its flammable

 

HERE PERFECT BALANCED AND ORGINAL

 

Annnd that would be adding a disadvantage without an advantage.

 

The adventage is the more cold resistance

 

[Dinarzad]

 

snip

 

I stated the primary features of the species from a single file. I didn't call it OP or call it some variant Human+. I find it fascinating that you got the impression I called it OP just by listing the primary traits it has. Kinda says a lot.

 

You're also cherry picking selective context as it suits you, from only a single post

 

Meanwhile we're ignoring the bigger picture of species like IPC which are objectively unbalanced by a much larger degree with no attempt to balance them due to the sheer uproar every time it's attempted.

 

The "Impression" Seems pretty clearly broadcast to me, not sure how you think it's "Fascinating" as though it were some sign of people being 'defensive' over it.

 

[thebeoni]

 

I find it very interesting that the focus is specifically on Vulp here. Tajarans have had darkvision for years and years and years and I've never once seen an argument against it for them, even when their unarmed damage was actually relevant. This is a very unique situation that I've only ever seen come up since Vulp have come into existence.

 

 

This is NOT the first time and certainly not last don't get me wrong but this whining you guys are doing led to "humanizing" of most of the races before. Races having distinct features was !!FUN!! because example: when playing security for each race you had to do something else to hold them up or catch them. There were multiple tries to push race changes on github shot down by community. I was around for every change and protested ... and i was never heard.. vulpas are not that OP you nannys dont even know what OP is.

 

[FlattestGuitar]

 

In my opinion, we should strive to make species as different as possible, many times at the cost of gameplay balance.

 

This is already the way it is, look at Vox, for example; skrekbirbs are completely resistant to space, meaning they can easily break out of perma without anyone caring in the slightest, while their drawback - being impossible to clone - is completely irrelevant 99% of the time. They're most definitely not a balanced race and THAT'S NOT BAD. You still have a chance in a fight against a Vox, you still can throw them into solitary confinement, you still can do things. That makes the game more interesting for everyone involved. Security officers fighting against a Vox need to think about ways to counter his strengths, making the pursuit that much more fun for them.

 

This isn't a game in which you'll win every single time, but it's one where you can have fun if you want to.

 

[Sothangel]

I would very much like it if each race was different on a greater scale - Grey wingdings when? Add different racial allergies, intolerances, it'll open up new methods of antaging. Somerace is allergic to somechem? Wouldn't it be a shame if some traitorous doctor forgot that... It would open up more avenues. Embrace differences, and what does it matter if they aren't all perfectly balanced? A small amount doesn't really alter much.

[Doukan]

 

In my opinion, we should strive to make species as different as possible, many times at the cost of gameplay balance.

Well you see you say that but in the past I've seen the decision makers say the complete opposite.

Such is life under the maintainership, probably better if there was an idea pool instead of endless semantics arguing but oh well.

 

[Vivalas]

 

>NV is useless and not game affecting at all.

 

What.

 

First of all this statement is wholly subjective, so we can argue about it all day, but I would much rather have NV over cold / heat resistance and maybe even pressure resistance. I mean, you have almost complete stealth in darkness, especially in maint where you can see people coming from a screen away because of their light source.

 

In all games that have multiple species, including humans, the norm is usually that humans are baseline and average. With no drawbacks or advantages. Now, the problem here is Vulp have an advantage with absolutely no drawback. And sure, people cite realism, but that's useless here since if you're basing them off dogs, dogs don't have night vision, and if they're "unique" and not based on anything, then, well, you can't cite realism.

 

And even if you did cite realism, realism is a touchy subject in SS13 because we tend to throw it in when necessary. Too much and the game is boring or too difficult, too little and you lose that complexity that makes the game interesting.

 

The main argument here is that Vulp are the only race here with an advantage and no drawbacks. This should definitely be changed.

 

[improvedname]

 

Just make fire stack on them more and tajaran as drawback

 

Meaning it be harder to roll off the fire

 

[HugoLuman]

 

Personally I don't think we should be thinking about whether a trait for vulps is dog-like or not, but rather we should be thinking how they can be differentiated from existing species (namely, Humans and Tajara). A faster metabolism requiring more food would be a noticeable but not significantly balance-altering gameplay effect. And adverse reactions to chocolate or caffeine could be justified based on that.

 

I think the complaint that started this thread comes from an apparent contradiction in the semantics. Basically, the objection probably comes from this: with differences getting de-emphasized in a design philosophy of putting game balance first, an objective inbalance being permitted seems like hypocrisy

 

[Mister Mann]

How about this why not give vox back their leap, and give slime people back their vent crawl while we're at it. Sarcasm, aside this seems kinda pointless to argue. I mean just lower it to 4 or 3 tiles and let the tarj have this.

[Dumbdumn5]

 

Well, this has grown by two pages, so time for more ranting.

 

In direct response to the intriguing argument, as it's been said by somebody before me, you're kinda baiting really hard for somebody to act "defensive". I'm dumb, not oblivious.

 

Quick note on ""OP"" races, I won't go in depth on my thoughts, as I've listed in numerous threads my thoughts and opinions, as well as on the public discord. IPCs, as they were mentioned specifically, are possibly in the most balanced position they have been for quite some time, which, of course, is heavily opinionated, but still better than having cardboard IPCs like prior. Nerfing any race into the ground isn't balance, it's a plain shitty attitude if it's an unwarranted nerf. As I said before, those who don't "main" a race, will claim that it's got more working for it in a number of cases due to having to play around the racial differences instead of sticking to the usual tactics, just as somebody who does "main" a race will undersell the advantages. Most races, in my personal opinion, are relatively well balanced. (This DOES NOT mean I don't think anything should be added. This is explicitly to state that the current meta is well accommodated to and molded tightly around differences as they stand.)

 

That said, perfect balance is usually boring, fair, but boring as there's nothing interesting to work around. Due to how relatively balanced things are now, and how they seem to become increasingly more balanced, some rounds can be relatively boring. Traitor, Vampire, Cult, Changeling, and other common antags are often fairly boring and samey when compared to other rounds of the same types. This can be true of any meta, as, given enough time, things cement and get stale, which, while it isn't always a bad thing, it gets tiresome and repetitive. To practice this, look to this webpage, from a game close to SS13's heart http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Losing (Remember, losing can be FUN if you don't play to win.)

 

Having to do something different to catch races is not a bad thing, in fact, it's actually much more interesting than having the exact same, surefire way to catch, kill, and otherwise to races (which often happens with the more human races, and what seems to make people flip their lid about Diona occasionally and IPCs due to their large differences compared to humans). Throwing a wrench into the game of dodgeball isn't a bad thing, it's interesting, and continual humanization is sort of making things the exact same. While it would be fair, as said before, fair is often boring if you let it sit.

 

It's actually kind of a good thing that each change to any race or sometimes any aspect of the game is fought over, but less of a good thing that viewpoints on those subjects are either stuck in a perpetual standstill, ignored completely, or left alone regardless of majority support.

 

Vivalas also makes a good point that there's not really a reason to keep them without much of a debuff for night vision, but again, I think the fire damage would be too much, as brute and burn are the two most common damage types, and they don't have many abilities or any at all that would warrant anything big like that, unlike how well it works with IPCs.

 

How about this why not give vox back their leap, and give slime people back their vent crawl while we're at it. Sarcasm, aside this seems kinda pointless to argue. I mean just lower it to 4 or 3 tiles and let the tarj have this.

Regardless of sarcasm, I wish.

[Da Dman234]

I haven't read all the posts so sorry if someone said it, but I'd like to point out Skrell can also breathe underwater

[Sothangel]

 

To practice this, look to this webpage, from a game close to SS13's heart http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Losing (Remember, losing can be FUN if you don't play to win.)

 

Losing is !!FUN!!, we need to all remember this.