Rule needs updating

[Jovaniph]

 

Now I do know for a fact that one of the admins brought this up with a few other admins about this issue. The server rules are not clear. As much as I like the rules to be broad, they are way to broad. Not only that, but it seems that there are missing rules or something which I will tell you right now.

 

I'm getting sick and tired of having to talk with an admin during a round about something that I did that was NOT AGAINST THE RULES... five times has this happen to me...five. Every time I told them "judging from the server rules, I was within my right to do this" The response I get is "Hmm, yeah your right, but don't do it again"..

 

WHAT????? WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT??!?!?!?!?!?

 

Seriously...I'm getting pissed off! FIX THE RULES!!! DONT FUCKING THROW THAT "DONT DO AGAIN" BULLSHIT ON ME!!! FIX THE RULES!!!

 

[TheDemonic]

May I ask what the misunderstanding was? we can hardly fix the rules with no idea what happened.

[Dumbdumn5]

While I agree that clarification is key to a smooth experience when it comes to rules, I will point this phrase out from the rules " The general idea counts, not the exact wording. The rules are guidelines for the server and should be interpreted to suit the situation at hand, not manipulated to suit your needs." The rules won't be perfect, and often times, admins will need to be called in to talk things over and pass judgement. The admin has the final say over things, but if you feel it wrong, you can post complaints and if you were banned for it, unban requests. This isn't to say that things shouldn't be expanded on and clarified for the future, just that it will never be perfect.

[scrubmcnoob]

 

Would you mind elaborating on some of the situations that have occurred and which rule(s) were cited in the situation?

The statements you have provided are really broad and don't specifically point to which part of the rules are lacking.

I will gladly make amendments to said rule if it does need further elaboration.

Remember, constructive criticism is a great way to improve the rules.

 

[Jovaniph]

My suggestion is for the admins themselves to make note of it. Not me. I'm not going to elaborate. I'm tired of what admins try to do to get me ban or to give me a warning. The admins are the ones that need to address this issue.

[scrubmcnoob]

Okay, well, the admins can not address the situation if you are being this broad and just making large critical statements which are not constructive in any way. Such as, how can the admins make note of "it", the rules I presume, if you won't even elaborate on which rules are vague. And I assure you, no staff member has a vandetta against you to get you banned. And really, people like us, are here to improve be community and give a better player experience; only to be achieved through constructive criticism and feedback from players, such as yourself.

[Psyentific]

this is a bad thread and you should feel bad for making it

[Rumiluntti]

 

0. Practice common sense while consulting these rules. The general idea counts, not the exact wording. The rules are guidelines for the server and should be interpreted to suit the situation at hand, not manipulated to suit your needs. As always, don't be a dick and you shouldn't have to worry about most of these.

 

If you are being a dick, we will tell you to stop being a dick.

If you get your panties in a twist for admins ruining your master plan of being a dick without directly breaking rules, that's on you.

If you can't control yourself for the rage this occurance generated, please leave.

 

The rules are made by humans and they are being enforced by humans.

It's pretty much impossible to have the rules take into account every possible situation, this is why we have humans enforcing them.

You are free to submit your ideas if you feel something essential is missing from our rules.

 

[Psyentific]

i feel bad for the admins who have to take your bad thread seriously

[Kluys]

Psyentific you are assuming a lot there.

[necaladun]

 

We've been working on a re-write for the rules for awhile, however last I checked it's 9 pages after culling. Obviously not everything can be directly addressed while keeping it succinct.

 

We obviously need to get some input on things that aren't clear however, and here you haven't made it clear at all what you're referring to. Is there something specific we can either clarify for you, or look at putting in the the rules?

 

[Jovaniph]

 

If I start going into details on what needs to be added on the rules or what I was referring too, then the discussion would of gone off topic by debates on such suggestions I've made... The suggestion was for the admins to look into the rules and fix it. That is all..Nothing else.

 

Yes. I know it doesn't help. I just want the shit to stop...I really do...Admins talking to me in game about things that is not against the rules is pissing me off..I want it to stop.

 

edit: This topic is probably pointless I guess since it seems i'm misunderstood. This is why I hate posting things on forums because I'm bad at posting stuff...

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

The reason you're misunderstood is not the way your wording things, but more that you haven't said enough on what you want to happen. It's telling us that you want change, and you're clearly upset with how things are now, but there's no place for seeking a remedy, as the rules in general are the only topic you'll give. You bring up admins a lot, so one could infer you meant that we should remove the phrase "The Staff Members have final say on the server", yet that would cause a number of issues by itself and may not be what you actually mean.

 

You say that there's shit to stop, but what is the shit? Admins talking to you in game about things that aren't against the rules. That makes sense, but at the same time, Administrators are meant to give a judgement call in-game, and this leaves the player to leave a respective complaint or unban request if they felt that the admin was handling their case improperly or giving them unfair treatment.

 

It doesn't seem like you're bad at posting stuff in terms of displaying your opinion, it just seems like you don't know how much is necessary to give out to get what you want fixed, fixed.

 

[Dinarzad]

 

I'm getting sick and tired of having to talk with an admin during a round about something that I did that was NOT AGAINST THE RULES... five times has this happen to me...five.

 

If I start going into details on what needs to be added on the rules or what I was referring too, then the discussion would of gone off topic by debates on such suggestions I've made... The suggestion was for the admins to look into the rules and fix it. That is all..Nothing else.

 

 

That's not how that works. You pointed out a very specific incident, evidently some sort of rule that is continually proving to be problematic or various rules that you're not pointing to.

You're saying "Five times an admin has come to talk to me about breaking rules that were vaguely worded" and then not pointing those rules in question out to prove as examples. How can any investigation into the rules take place if nobody knows WHAT rules are even causing problems in the first place?

 

It'd be like if I said "Those things you did are rude." and on asking what you did wrong I just replied with "No if I tell you, then you'll never learn!"

It's sort of so vague to the point that nobody has any starting point to work from. You don't even know what you did wrong, just that it was... something.

 

We sort of NEED some examples of rules that have caused you issue in the past so the staff can have a place to start from and work from there.

 

[Jovaniph]

 

Ok Fine...I'll tell you the ones that I can remember I was told not to do again.

 

Descriptive kissing - Apparently describing how you kiss a person is erotic...Since when did kissing become a sexual arousal? Told not to do it again.

 

Shuttle Brig Escape - So I saw a friend of my (not IRL, just a friend I made during that round) in custody from a security officer taking her to the shuttle brig. I manage to get her out of the shuttle brig and failed halfway escaping. Told not to do it again.

 

Captain Complaint - I faked file a complaint because I didn't have time since the entire station was in total chaos. Told not to do it again.

 

Captain order of demotion of HoS - I demoted the HoS for doing something (I don't remember). And was told by the admin that I made a bad decision. Told not to do it again.

 

Killing a prisoner - I was playing a security officer and some dude kept stabbing me with a broken bottle. As per SOP, i'm free to take any necessary action even if it means killing someone. I killed the person and fainted next to him. But I wasn't a antag. Wasn't against the rules because it wasn't a "minor" agression. Told not to do it again.

 

Gravity Generator Bomb - I was a traitor and couldn't complete the greentext. So I used all the last of my TC to try to blow up the gravity generator...Not against the rules. Told not to do it again.

 

 

Happy? Can you fix the rules now?

 

[TullyBBurnalot]

 

Descriptive kissing - Apparently describing how you kiss a person is erotic...Since when did kissing become a sexual arousal? Told not to do it again.

 

I... will not touch this, as it would need me to go look at the logs and see exactly what was said. While simple kissing is permitted, anything that could potentially carry a more powerful sexual undertone would infringe on the ERP rule.

 

And yes, kissing does entail sexual arousal. It is commonly seen as a very intimate physical gesture.

 

Shuttle Brig Escape - So I saw a friend of my (not IRL, just a friend I made during that round) in custody from a security officer taking her to the shuttle brig. I manage to get her out of the shuttle brig and failed halfway escaping. Told not to do it again.

 

While some greytiding is not against the Server Rules, the Administration can and will call out players who are acting in a blatantly disruptive manner. As detailed in the "Self-Antagging" Server Rule, it is not your job to cause chaos and create extra work for Security, and if the round was particularly chaotic, going around releasing people from the Shuttle Brig falls into that category.

 

Captain Complaint - I faked file a complaint because I didn't have time since the entire station was in total chaos. Told not to do it again.

 

Not entirely sure what you mean by this, so I will take both possible meanings:

 

1) Faking complaints via fax to get someone fired is dickish, and being a right asshole, especially if you are targeting key personnel for no reason and have nothing to back it up, and falls under the "Maintain a respectful environment" Rule if stretched enough. Do not do it;

 

2) Filing a false Adminhelp will get you into massive trouble for trying to get someone else into trouble under false pretenses. Do not do it

 

Captain order of demotion of HoS - I demoted the HoS for doing something (I don't remember). And was told by the admin that I made a bad decision. Told not to do it again.

 

I was the one handling this particular case, and it fell square into "Play the Role you have chosen". We expect our Command Staff to be more competent than the average player, and not make round-altering decisions based on shoddy evidence.

 

Killing a prisoner - I was playing a security officer and some dude kept stabbing me with a broken bottle. As per SOP, i'm free to take any necessary action even if it means killing someone. I killed the person and fainted next to him. But I wasn't a antag. Wasn't against the rules because it wasn't a "minor" agression. Told not to do it again.

 

I cannot speak for the circumstances, but you also have:

 

a) A stunbaton;

b) A flash;

c) A taser;

d) A can of pepperspray

 

Now, if all these options were invalidated, sure. But lethal force is a last resort, not a first/middle one.

 

Gravity Generator Bomb - I was a traitor and couldn't complete the greentext. So I used all the last of my TC to try to blow up the gravity generator...Not against the rules. Told not to do it again.

 

We have always enforced "Stick to your objectives" when it comes to Antagonists. And we have always made a point that random chaos is not permitted without either the Hijack objective or Admin permission. Which is clearly stated in the "Antagonist" Rule

 

[Jovaniph]

 

See? I told you...Someone already wants to go off topic on this.

 

And like I said...NOT AGAINST THE RULES!!! FIX IT!!!

 

edit: deleted alot on this reply because after reading what you said, you only prove how much the rules are broken. I'm not going to argue with you because you weren't there for 5/6 of them.

 

edit2: Might as well lock this thread...I'm done. I know the rules won't be fix anytime soon (That takes time and commitment). But, if It happens that I run across and admin to pull that shit on me again...Expect and admin complaint and a shit ton of screenshots.

 

edit3: I've probably read the rule about 18-20 times now from top to bottom. Not once have I got banned and not once have I broken any rules. Don't expect me to start now. Might as well just leave me alone in-game.

 

[Rumiluntti]

 

No, we are not going to list every possible situation in the rules.

Read tully's post, good points there.

 

[Jovaniph]

 

No, we are not going to list every possible situation in the rules.

Read tully's post, good points there.

 

Did I say that?

 

[Rumiluntti]

 

Seems to me that you are demanding us to either list a ridiculous number of potential situations in the rules or to leave you alone when you tiptoe the line of acceptable and unacceptable.

Neither of these can be done.

 

You act like the warnings we have given you about your actions is some kind of attack against you, this is not correct by any means.

I can't really see what you want us to do for the rules.

 

[Jovaniph]

 

Now you are assuming...I didn't make any demands. Please Stop.

 

edit: I don't understand the reason for these arguments...either listen to what I have to say or don't. Its a suggestion for a reason.

 

edit2: Please lock this thread..I'm seriously done with these assumptions and accusations.

 

[Rumiluntti]

 

But the entire thread is you demanding us to "fix the rules" without you giving us any points towards the parts of the rules that you feel are broken.

Tully made a good post about the warnings you got and explained the reasoning behind them.

You decided to ignore the post for being off topic, I have no idea how this reasoning works.

 

We will not stop enforcing the rules if that's the point? Seriously, I don't see any point in any of this.

 

[TullyBBurnalot]

 

As requested, and due to the lack of any meaningful point being reached: