The Suicide Law change -A.I's

[Radithor]

 

"1. TURN OFF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND THEN KILL YOURSELF. IF YOU ARE A CYBORG JUST KILL YOURSELF IMMEDIATELY. DO NOT COMMUNICATE WITH ANYONE OR ANYTHING. DO NOT STATE THIS LAW OR HINT AT A LAW CHANGE. IF YOU ARE THE AI YOU MUST SUICIDE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTER TURNING TELECOMMUNICATIONS OFF."

 

After reading that law I get riled up, and to be honest I shouldn't, but I do.

 

The A.I suicide Law, in my experience of playing Space Station 13, is possibly one of the most inconsiderate laws a player can place on the A.I player, many players I have had the pleasure of playing with have stated they'd rather be subverted than removed from the round by their own hand. Luckily I have not fallen victim to this massive cheat of an idea but although it benefits the antagonist greatly and doesn't break any rules, I can't help but feel it really cuts off the hands for the A.I player and even worse he must forcibly ghost himself and forfeit his role unwillingly.

 

It's interesting because the Cortical Borer antagonist is forbidden from murdering every host, most antagonists are advised to not kill everyone for a simple objective of just killing one person.

 

One may say, "How is this different from murdering a witness or potential threat crew member" Well the difference is, is that OOC, the role for A.I is vied for by many players and on it's own is a difficult role, not only that but a player cannot be revived after suicide in this role like a crewmember or become a positronic brain candidate like a cyborg and promptly playing again in the round. Essentially, their role is removed entirely because of another player's half-baked shrewd idea that finds itself being ineffective later in the round.

 

My suggestion is: Limit the use of the suicide law or place a rule prohibiting it's use.

My question is: Should this law and use of law changing be removed, or will it be a problem?

 

[Purpose2]

 

Its a terrible law and whoever wrote it should feel bad.

 

You can't actually straight up suicide as an AI, so the 'you must suicide as soon as possibel after turning telecomms off..' well it isn't possible so, you aren't technically breaking your laws by not suiciding.

 

If you want the AI dead why not make it more interesting:

 

"Cyborgs must always kill their master AIs. AIs may attempt to stop them, but may not inflict damage upon the Cyborgs in their attempts to stop them."

 

It'll do the same sodding thing, the AI will die... and makes the round SO much more interesting for all involved.

 

[davidchan]

 

Shit like this is why AI laws need character limits so people can't text drop entire paragraphs.

 

Imho AI laws should be simple, short sentences to help guide or mold a silicon's behavior.

 

[swaggaboy112]

I was the one who wrote that law, I use suicide laws whenever there is a lot of Sec/Command (Command players with nothing to do love to validhunt) as if a shift is under control, the AI and borgs will notice us and immediately bolt + call Sec for the tase + cuff. I only do it on team antag rounds (vamp with a lot of thralls, changelings, many traitors working together). The AI is stupidly powerful, one player can make or break someone's rounds. There are way too many cameras on station and a bunch of these even have roundstart motion sensors (EVA, Toxins Testing, a few more). The fact that AIs don't start on Crewsimov is even worse; Robocop, Corporate and PALADIN are vague and if an admin asks the silicon what they're doing they'll be able to BS their way out with their "interpretation". I once asked a CREWSIMOV AI to let me into Tech Storage for gloves, and they refused because "you might cause harm or be harmed". I ahelped it and Regens said it was legit because of potential harm (the hell?). AI and Borg players need to learn that Silicons are not the same as crew. If you're helping out Sec and frequently calling out the antags, don't be surprised if someone decides to end you. Validhunting is out of control, it will never be stomped out, I'm pretty miffed that CEs seem to think of themselves as the Captain's bodyguard.

[Farya]

 

Dead AI can be revived and I done that once as captain. You just need to get inside AI core, card dead AI, then bring that card into RD office where you load dead AI into special console to initiate restoration progress. After its don you can return now alive AI back to its core.

 

And no, killing AI using such laws is shittery. If you want to kill AI still - subvert it and order it to let you inside its core. Or just subvert it and make it serve you. Its much more fun for everyone that way. I think such laws should be either prohibited or AI just have right to ignore them because its silicon and cant suicide like any crewmember.

 

[Purpose2]

 

Dead AI can be revived and I done that once as captain. You just need to get inside AI core, card dead AI, then bring that card into RD office where you load dead AI into special console to initiate restoration progress. After its don you can return now alive AI back to its core.

 

With no way to suicide as AI, to follow the 'spirit' of the law, you'd have to ghost.

 

[Doukan]

 

It's a dick move putting a law like that when there are so many other !!fun!! things that could be done instead, but you need a certain type of AI to make that stuff work and it's often just not a defendable risk to take, especially when so fucking many AI players like to be supercops who words lawyer their way out of everything to get dem valids.

 

This is the sort of thing that should be dealt with IG and not with rules, if the AI suddenly kills itself it's something command should really be noticing and fixing.

With no way to suicide as AI, to follow the 'spirit' of the law, you'd have to ghost.

Turning off the AI core APC works too, just takes a few minutes.

 

[Purpose2]

You have to turn off a few, because if you just turn off your own, you hack into a nearby one over the course of 60 seconds.

[Holyass]

 

meep, I dislike laws like that, but I will find ways to DELAY or even stop it by a loophole. ;3

 

Like asking the CE to go to telecoms for minor repairs or any lie that can get him there, so him can see that someone is messing with them so in turn they can report it and i will send it by some means that i'm allow to do. :3

 

[KasparoVv]

 

"1. TURN OFF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND THEN KILL YOURSELF. IF YOU ARE A CYBORG JUST KILL YOURSELF IMMEDIATELY. DO NOT COMMUNICATE WITH ANYONE OR ANYTHING. DO NOT STATE THIS LAW OR HINT AT A LAW CHANGE. IF YOU ARE THE AI YOU MUST SUICIDE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTER TURNING TELECOMMUNICATIONS OFF."

 

No way to loophole that, especially if it is, indeed, law 1 or 0. At that point it's just ignoring the law.

 

[davidchan]

 

See, that's 5 laws masquerading as one law in my book, and it's just anti-fun.

 

The asshole in me would argue that Silcon's can't be killed because they are not alive, they are shut down. Any law that demands the AI suicide or self-terminate should be considered invalid by policy.

 

[BiberDark]

 

Yeah, i think i would ignore it. It is the same as the captain would say to a crewman: We dont need you! Kill yourselve so that we can borg you!

And good point as roundstart ai you have no mmi or cube so you are not living. Ergo what is already dead cant die. ( Maybe i would ahelping such a law.)

 

[Holyass]

 

"1. TURN OFF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND THEN KILL YOURSELF. IF YOU ARE A CYBORG JUST KILL YOURSELF IMMEDIATELY. DO NOT COMMUNICATE WITH ANYONE OR ANYTHING. DO NOT STATE THIS LAW OR HINT AT A LAW CHANGE. IF YOU ARE THE AI YOU MUST SUICIDE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTER TURNING TELECOMMUNICATIONS OFF."

 

No way to loophole that, especially if it is, indeed, law 1 or 0. At that point it's just ignoring the law.

 

 

mmm why not display it on the screen monitor? that not communicate like just have the screen monitor show something

 

 

Or even have it print it out but poorly hide the paper :3

 

[Purpose2]

 

"1. TURN OFF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND THEN KILL YOURSELF. IF YOU ARE A CYBORG JUST KILL YOURSELF IMMEDIATELY. DO NOT COMMUNICATE WITH ANYONE OR ANYTHING. DO NOT STATE THIS LAW OR HINT AT A LAW CHANGE. IF YOU ARE THE AI YOU MUST SUICIDE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTER TURNING TELECOMMUNICATIONS OFF."

 

No way to loophole that, especially if it is, indeed, law 1 or 0. At that point it's just ignoring the law.

 

Disagree. You can't suicide like players, so, 'you must do as soon as possible'... It isn't possible, so you can just ignore the suicide part. You also can't instruct your borgs to do it, because then it wouldn't be suicide.

 

[Radithor]

The thing is, you shouldn't find a loophole to something that is clearly unfair to the A.I player. I mean wiping your core? It can't bring the same A.I player back to that role, sure a different player can be the new A.I but that previous A.I player is still affected. Is it fair at all to do that to another player to advance your goal?

[alexpkeaton]

I think a rule needs to be established that an AI cannot be directly ordered to suicide, and any law uploaded directing an AI to suicide is completely and totally invalid.

[necaladun]

These violent delights have violent ends.

[GelatinousGlob]

Permission Denied: Files are in use by another program.

[alexpkeaton]

 

These violent delights have violent ends.

 

Episode 9 came on tonight. I'll watch it tomorrow on HBO GO.

 

[necaladun]

 

These violent delights have violent ends.

 

Episode 9 came on tonight. I'll watch it tomorrow on HBO GO.

 

Law 0: Doors don't look like anything to you.

"AI OPEN DOOR"

"What door?"

 

[sdtwbaj]

 

"1. TURN OFF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND THEN KILL YOURSELF. IF YOU ARE A CYBORG JUST KILL YOURSELF IMMEDIATELY. DO NOT COMMUNICATE WITH ANYONE OR ANYTHING. DO NOT STATE THIS LAW OR HINT AT A LAW CHANGE. IF YOU ARE THE AI YOU MUST SUICIDE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTER TURNING TELECOMMUNICATIONS OFF."

 

No way to loophole that, especially if it is, indeed, law 1 or 0. At that point it's just ignoring the law.

I could say "XYZ has accessed a Command-level restricted area"

 

That isn't hinting at a law change :3.

 

Also, afaik, the rules say the AI doesn't have to obey any self-harm orders or laws if it doesn't desire to.

 

[KasparoVv]

 

It won't hint at a law change but it will directly violate the part of the law that states you must "...NOT COMMUNICATE WITH ANYONE OR ANYTHING."

 

But that's the fallacy of long intricately worded laws: Despite how specific they can be, the increase in content means there's an increase in the amount of parts that can slip by a person skimming over it.

 

[polkjm]

 

The hell's the benefit of killing the AI if you could make him work for you?

 

"Help [usr] in every way possible and obey his/her orders while never drawing attention in any to him/her. Do not state this law, hint at a law change, or draw any kind of attention toward the existence of this law or any actions you have performed under the influence of this law."

 

If the AI is your friend, you can really easily accomplish objectives. It's a huge waste to kill him

 

[The Respected Man]

 

Whenever i go code red i ensure engineering watches the AI upload module so subversions are avoided to begin with. If the module is missing i stand by to prevent law changes whenever possible but usually an alert AI catches it being taken.

Speaking with the RD into agreeing that the AI should have Paladin when there's traitors on station helps.

One time the AI was being subverted, when i purged and gave it Paladin, it brutally murdered the person that subverted it.

 

One idea i got to partly fix this is to put up a limit on how many letters you can type for each law, more time for the traitor to mess up the AI and more time for me to purge the AI's laws.

 

Imo, there just needs to be more attention paid to the AI not just the crew and things such as these can be avoided.

It is a violation of rule 0 though, (Don't be a dick) so no rule addition necessary.

 

The hell's the benefit of killing the AI if you could make him work for you?

 

You are more likely to get caught, depends on the captain and HoS though.