Cloning memory disorder should be a requirement

[Anticept]

 

Hello all!

 

I had been making this discussion on discord, and finally got around to throwing it up on here.

 

Per the title, cloning memory disorder should be a requirement. It removes the incentive to permanently dispose of bodies (except where it is an objective to do so), and Baystation puts it very succinctly why:

 

This is to keep things a little more sane in-round should antagonists aim for murdering crew members and to help keep things interesting and more fun for all involved. Otherwise this means antagonists would have to permanently remove people from rounds by disposing their corpses to avoid being found out.

 

I also believe using Strange Reagent, or a brain transplant where death has been longer than the defib limit, would induce the disorder. Only successful defibrillation would allow a person to retain their memories. It would also make CPR much more important!

 

From a coding standpoint, nothing really NEEDS to be done, but I would highly suggest a text blob that informs a newly cloning person the rules of CMD. Same with being SR'd, it would display the text blob.

 

[Rumiluntti]

 

 

It has been dicussed before. The threads died for a reason.

 

[davidchan]

Some people still play it as if its a rule, most do not. It died for a reason but it's just one more reason tators and antags destroy bodies and the cloner to prevent retaliation for their actions.

[SomeGuy9283]

 

If it's how you like to play the game, do it. You'll be recognized as someone more into RP.

 

If it's not, don't. No one will hold it against you.

 

[Spacemanspark]

Honestly I wouldn't mind this but nobody else seems to want it.

[SomeGuy9283]

 

Honestly I wouldn't mind this but nobody else seems to want it.

Let's move towards something like this one step at a time. I think it should be SOP for medical staff not to let cloned persons see their bodies, not to tell people they've been cloned, and not to just abandon them in cloning room if at all possible.

 

Additionally, I think CMD is situational. If someone chucks you out an airlock and it takes you three minutes to die, I figure you'd recollect that upon cloning, though maybe in poor detail. If, however, you are shot with a SMG and are dead before you hit the ground, you probably wouldn't have much time to store that in your memory. In either case, a chat with the Psychiatrist may be beneficial(speaking of which, can we enforce higher standards for therapists?).

 

[BiberDark]

 

Threads die because people have said all the things to say to a specific topic. It dosn´t mean that they are not interrested in it !.

 

Do you really want that everybody bumps a thread so that it stays active ?

 

Is it getting obvoius in the past that topics get ignored, after more then 100 posts in it, because someone in the leadship dislikes it. In the hope nobody remembers it, in the next week.

 

[Doukan]

 

Impossible to enforce, so long as the server is listed and has the "everyone knows everything clause" it just doesn't fit right.

Threads die because people have said all the things to say to a specific topic. It dosn´t mean that they are not interrested in it !.

Too true, just because I'm self aware enough not to constantly shit up the forum with my crying about it doesn't mean I'm not still pissed about instastun.

 

[Holyass]

 

Ok, I'm just going to cut this thread short.

 

There were many threads like this one in fact I even posted in a few of them, but the server base near all of them, do not follow this rule at all.

 

Yes there are some that still do but as a whole most dont, I think it just a way for players to vent their anger out.

 

 

So can I request for a admin to lock down the thread because we had many threads like this one and they all lead to the same point.

 

[Spacemanspark]

What.

[Dumbdumn5]

But there's no reason to lock down the discussion, nothing's even gone ad hominem yet...

[SomeGuy9283]

Here's a thought: Because of the emotional and neurological trauma associated with death, a victim's testimony is not sufficient for a murder conviction. A search, autopsy, or other forensic examination must reveal further evidence for legitimate conviction. There, no extra bans, no insta-convictions for security, no motive to permanently remove people from the round in many circumstances, and the requirement of actual detective work on the part of the prosecution.

[necaladun]

 

Here's a thought: Because of the emotional and neurological trauma associated with death, a victim's testimony is not sufficient for a murder conviction. A search, autopsy, or other forensic examination must reveal further evidence for legitimate conviction. There, no extra bans, no insta-convictions for security, no motive to permanently remove people from the round in many circumstances, and the requirement of actual detective work on the part of the prosecution.

 

That's kinda genius. No admin intervention needed (unless it's against sec). Makes sense in the context. Gives the detective more work.

 

My main problem is the meta aspect. People will know that 99/100 times the victim is telling the truth.

 

[Spacemanspark]

 

is the meta aspect. People will know that 99/100 times the victim is telling the truth.

[spoilertext]Ban everyone[/spoilertext]

They can believe the victim all they want, perhaps even watch them, but without evidence they can't do jack.

/shouldn't/ be an issue, but who knows.

 

[Urlance Woolsbane]

 

I was honestly surprised when I learned it wasn't enforced. It seems natural enough, saving random casualties from being permanently removed from the round and saving antags from going to ridiculous lengths to hide each and every cadaver. But I can see the other side: Having to act completely oblivious as the person that killed you lures you to your second death could be immensely frustrating. So I don't know. I do agree with whoever suggested that there be a grace period, so if you're bound and gagged for ten minutes before your attacker disposes of you, you remember enough to incriminate him. Of course, that could penalize vampires, but they can shapeshift anyhow...

 

 

Here's a thought: Because of the emotional and neurological trauma associated with death, a victim's testimony is not sufficient for a murder conviction. A search, autopsy, or other forensic examination must reveal further evidence for legitimate conviction. There, no extra bans, no insta-convictions for security, no motive to permanently remove people from the round in many circumstances, and the requirement of actual detective work on the part of the prosecution.

That's fine and dandy under Green Alert, but seeing as most antag rounds wind up with Blue Alert by half-an-hour in, it still gives Security a massive leg up. Granted, storage implants exist, but they cost 8 telecrystals for a mere two slots.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

Here's a thought: Because of the emotional and neurological trauma associated with death, a victim's testimony is not sufficient for a murder conviction. A search, autopsy, or other forensic examination must reveal further evidence for legitimate conviction. There, no extra bans, no insta-convictions for security, no motive to permanently remove people from the round in many circumstances, and the requirement of actual detective work on the part of the prosecution.

 

I find CMD to be a terrible thing in terms of forcing yourself to act oblivious, as it goes along the same lines as "lol changling? Wut dat?" or "Vamp no real, silly human, u just imaginateded he fangses." This is a damn good alternative, mostly because it supports the mindset that verbal evidence shouldn't be enough to convict somebody.

 

[scrubmcnoob]

 

It's perfectly fine as it is now.

Antags just need to do a better job at making sure bodies aren't revived if they don't want to be ratted out.

 

And it's already a thing that you may not convict some one solely off hear say from a random crew member. However, when ever security does go to investigate the reported name, the antag will likely shoot sec on sight before they can search/question.

 

[Purpose2]

 

Here's a thought: Because of the emotional and neurological trauma associated with death, a victim's testimony is not sufficient for a murder conviction. A search, autopsy, or other forensic examination must reveal further evidence for legitimate conviction. There, no extra bans, no insta-convictions for security, no motive to permanently remove people from the round in many circumstances, and the requirement of actual detective work on the part of the prosecution.

 

I find CMD to be a terrible thing in terms of forcing yourself to act oblivious, as it goes along the same lines as "lol changling? Wut dat?" or "Vamp no real, silly human, u just imaginateded he fangses." This is a damn good alternative, mostly because it supports the mindset that verbal evidence shouldn't be enough to convict somebody.

I disagree, ERT or ghosts that get revived see all sorts of shit while ghosted, and manage just fine.

 

[SomeGuy9283]

 

I disagree, ERT or ghosts that get revived see all sorts of shit while ghosted, and manage just fine.

That's meta-gaming more so than an RP issue. It's less about making things difficult for sec/antags or roleplaying than about avoiding a ban-hammer.

In other words, acting on metaknowledge=/=acting on knowledge just prior to death

 

[Dumbdumn5]

 

I disagree, ERT or ghosts that get revived see all sorts of shit while ghosted, and manage just fine.

On top of what SomeGuy's already said.

 

ERT has a choice and are often players who willingly do said amount of roleplay at their choice, and by ghosts who get revived, you could argue that they don't spill the beans on everything, yes, though their killer is going to be the main temptation if they do happen to want to spill any beans after cloning, which is why the above suggestion of the law above makes a good argument, in my opinion.

 

[Anticept]

 

It's perfectly fine as it is now.

Antags just need to do a better job at making sure bodies aren't revived if they don't want to be ratted out.

 

I think you completely missed the point of this thread. Enforcing CMD removes a huge chunk of the incentive for antags to permanently remove a player from the round; but it is not for the purpose of making an antag's job easier, but rather allowing a player a far greater chance of returning to the game in the role they wanted to play. That's pretty much the reason why I hide or space bodies; because I don't know if they are going to launch out of the cloner ready to scream my name. That's my reason for wanting CMD.

 

On other notes:

 

I do like the idea of simply requiring sec to have evidence instead of just word of mouth, but that still leaves the incentive to destroy or space the body as it's just plain easier. I'd still prefer CMD in full strength though, and if someone comes out of the cloner screaming their killer's name, then they are ignored, chalking it up to a cloning malfunction.

 

In addition, someone mentioned walking into the antag only to get killed again: that's an interesting point, and perhaps CMD would allow a character to still feel extraordinary dread, though they don't know why, when they are near that character. Depending on your interpretation of CMD, you could say the final moments are such a traumatic event that a character's mind hasn't resolved the events, so it's just a blur, but they still feel dread.

 

The only reason I care about CMD, is removing that incentive of destroying any chance of a player returning to the role they wanted to play. I don't really care for the whole existential crisis thing that some servers push, I only care about giving people a chance to resume their role.

 

[Rumiluntti]

 

Your target needs to be dead when the shuttle docks for you to greentext.

I like the idea of clone testimony not being valid, but we all know that won't really work.

Forcing people to play stupid is something I do not want to see on this server.

 

I'm not too keen on the idea of enforcing any cloner specific RP behavior, sounds stupid and like a massive pain in the ass.

 

Also, dying is a part of the game.

 

[Anticept]

 

Your target needs to be dead when the shuttle docks for you to greentext.

 

Agreed completely on objective assassinations (to which there is no change of incentive with CMD), but if you just happen to "be in the way"? Or they need to steal your access (to which murder is pretty convenient in a lot of cases)?

 

I like the idea of clone testimony not being valid, but we all know that won't really work.

Forcing people to play stupid is something I do not want to see on this server.

 

We already do for thralls, deculted, un-reved, etc, rendering your argument arbitrary. It already works except for the occasional turd. People can also come back as borgs, ERT, maintenance drones, pAIs, NPCs, etc, and it's not a huge issue there either.

 

A cloner message in BIG FUCKING LETTERS telling the cloning person how CMD works would go a long way towards reducing the amount of problems and getting people accustomed to such a rule change, and a cloner message is already there; it merely need be modified with this new information. It is next to 0 effort to implement.

 

I'm not too keen on the idea of enforcing any cloner specific RP behavior, sounds stupid and like a massive pain in the ass.

 

As above, we already do similarly for thralls, deculted, un-reved, etc. It's not even a stone's throw away to adopt.

 

Also, dying is a part of the game.

 

It's also part of most games, and there's no contention there. But, we also have the ability to come back, which is also part of the game. CMD is in the interest of players to continue enjoying the game in the role they wish to play without removing death altogether, which I argue is an enhancement to gameplay.

 

[scrubmcnoob]

 

I think you completely missed the point of this thread. Enforcing CMD removes a huge chunk of the incentive for antags to permanently remove a player from the round; but it is not for the purpose of making an antag's job easier, but rather allowing a player a far greater chance of returning to the game in the role they wanted to play. That's pretty much the reason why I hide or space bodies; because I don't know if they are going to launch out of the cloner ready to scream my name. That's my reason for wanting CMD.

 

 

Enforcing CMD REMOVES incentive to murder? As soon as people realize they can kill and not have to worry about that person remembering their killer, people will indiscriminately murder, as long as it's within the rules, and won't have to worry about being ratted out. And just because the person's body isn't spaced/cremated, doesn't mean they will come back. They are still dead. You are assuming medbay will be competent and on point for cloning which is not always the case during a round.

 

In addition, someone mentioned walking into the antag only to get killed again: that's an interesting point, and perhaps CMD would allow a character to still feel extraordinary dread, though they don't know why, when they are near that character. Depending on your interpretation of CMD, you could say the final moments are such a traumatic event that a character's mind hasn't resolved the events, so it's just a blur, but they still feel dread.

 

 

How would we enforce this? What would this 'extraordinary dread' entail for the person? Would this person be so scared of that person that they would tase them on sight or attack them on sight, and if we say that isn't allowed, what is the person allowed to do? Avoid them like the plaque and start pointing at them and screaming obscenities at them? That will just make it obvious they are the killer and then security, if it's code red, can search on the basis of 'random search.'

And how much before the point of death do you actually remember, ten minutes, fifteen minutes? What happens if you were conversing with the person for 20 before they killed you and you said 'I saw them before everything went black.' Doesn't that negate the whole flawed concept of enforcing CMD?

 

The only reason I care about CMD, is removing that incentive of destroying any chance of a player returning to the role they wanted to play. I don't really care for the whole existential crisis thing that some servers push, I only care about giving people a chance to resume their role.

 

As mentioned earlier, this game has death in it and that's that really. You are going to die some rounds and that is how the game works, at least one person is going to die every round. There is no avoiding this concept because this game is based around chaos and death. And to reiterate the point again, just because you aren't space or cremated, you are still dead meaning you are out of the round until some one drags you to medbay. And this doesn't always happen.

 

We already do for thralls, deculted, un-reved, etc, rendering your argument arbitrary. It already works except for the occasional turd. People can also come back as borgs, ERT, maintenance drones, pAIs, NPCs, etc, and it's not a huge issue there either.

 

A cloner message in BIG FUCKING LETTERS telling the cloning person how CMD works would go a long way towards reducing the amount of problems and getting people accustomed to such a rule change, and a cloner message is already there; it merely need be modified with this new information. It is next to 0 effort to implement.

 

It's not the same situation because instead of being removed from a cult and simply forgetting all the cult things you saw and learned, you need to remember exactly ten minutes before your death and forget it. But then people may incorrectly remember nine minutes as twelve minutes and believe their statements of who killed them is legit and doesn't break any rules. Now we are bwoinking people over minutes worth of information that can be genuinely incorrectly remembered.

 

And again, what will this dread thing entail? The Antag may complain the victim is remembering to much by acting odd towards them and then the victim will try to justify they should feel jittery next to this person all the while tipping sec off who will perform some random searches. Now you got an antag complaining about being metagamed and then you need to decide which is legit, the victim acting as he did or the antag stating the victim shouldn't have had acted that way. It opens up a new plethora of problems we will have to deal with and quite honestly, not a ton of people want to see implemented anyway.

 

It's also part of most games, and there's no contention there. But, we also have the ability to come back, which is also part of the game. CMD is in the interest of players to continue enjoying the game in the role they wish to play without removing death altogether, which I argue is an enhancement to gameplay.

 

 

The person is still dead. The antag will most likely still hide the body to keep alert levels down. This literally just gives antags a getaway card for when sec finds the body, they have nothing to go off when the person is cloned besides any DNA the killer /might/ have left behind.

 

[Anticept]

 

I think you completely missed the point of this thread. Enforcing CMD removes a huge chunk of the incentive for antags to permanently remove a player from the round; but it is not for the purpose of making an antag's job easier, but rather allowing a player a far greater chance of returning to the game in the role they wanted to play. That's pretty much the reason why I hide or space bodies; because I don't know if they are going to launch out of the cloner ready to scream my name. That's my reason for wanting CMD.

 

 

Enforcing CMD REMOVES incentive to murder? As soon as people realize they can kill and not have to worry about that person remembering their killer, people will indiscriminately murder, as long as it's within the rules, and won't have to worry about being ratted out. And just because the person's body isn't spaced/cremated, doesn't mean they will come back. They are still dead. You are assuming medbay will be competent and on point for cloning which is not always the case during a round.

 

I did not say it removes the incentive to murder. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said permanent removal from the round. That means cremation, spacing, etc. In addition, the server rule already states that unnecessary murder will get you banned, so this part of your argument is nonsense.

 

On the note of medbay being competent: This is a strawman argument, and whether or not medbay is competent does nothing to affect CMD or its incentives. Yes it affects whether or not someone is cloned, but I'm not arguing medbays competency or cloning capability.

 

In addition, someone mentioned walking into the antag only to get killed again: that's an interesting point, and perhaps CMD would allow a character to still feel extraordinary dread, though they don't know why, when they are near that character. Depending on your interpretation of CMD, you could say the final moments are such a traumatic event that a character's mind hasn't resolved the events, so it's just a blur, but they still feel dread.

 

 

How would we enforce this? What would this 'extraordinary dread' entail for the person? Would this person be so scared of that person that they would tase them on sight or attack them on sight, and if we say that isn't allowed, what is the person allowed to do? Avoid them like the plaque and start pointing at them and screaming obscenities at them? That will just make it obvious they are the killer and then security, if it's code red, can search on the basis of 'random search.'

And how much before the point of death do you actually remember, ten minutes, fifteen minutes? What happens if you were conversing with the person for 20 before they killed you and you said 'I saw them before everything went black.' Doesn't that negate the whole flawed concept of enforcing CMD?

 

In my mind, it would mean being cautious of them. An uneasyness. If they walk into the room, you can roleplay your character feeling the need to leave or be on guard around them. It doesn't have to make sense to the character, the character just knows they are not comfortable.

 

The only reason I care about CMD, is removing that incentive of destroying any chance of a player returning to the role they wanted to play. I don't really care for the whole existential crisis thing that some servers push, I only care about giving people a chance to resume their role.

 

As mentioned earlier, this game has death in it and that's that really. You are going to die some rounds and that is how the game works, at least one person is going to die every round. There is no avoiding this concept because this game is based around chaos and death. And to reiterate the point again, just because you aren't space or cremated, you are still dead meaning you are out of the round until some one drags you to medbay. And this doesn't always happen.

 

What does death, chaos, and competence have to do with this debate for CMD? You've drifted from the topic at hand and are attacking positions I have not made, but I'll bite to make a point: While I would love to have competent people recover the body quickly, it certainly is a lot easier if the body isn't lost in space.

 

We already do for thralls, deculted, un-reved, etc, rendering your argument arbitrary. It already works except for the occasional turd. People can also come back as borgs, ERT, maintenance drones, pAIs, NPCs, etc, and it's not a huge issue there either.

 

A cloner message in BIG FUCKING LETTERS telling the cloning person how CMD works would go a long way towards reducing the amount of problems and getting people accustomed to such a rule change, and a cloner message is already there; it merely need be modified with this new information. It is next to 0 effort to implement.

 

It's not the same situation because instead of being removed from a cult and simply forgetting all the cult things you saw and learned, you need to remember exactly ten minutes before your death and forget it. But then people may incorrectly remember nine minutes as twelve minutes and believe their statements of who killed them is legit and doesn't break any rules. Now we are bwoinking people over minutes worth of information that can be genuinely incorrectly remembered.

 

Why are you packaging all of this as though it must be a specific number of minutes? What I said was flat out simple: you can't remember your killer or the method of death. I didn't say anything about time, you're inventing positions to attack that I have not taken.

 

And again, what will this dread thing entail? The Antag may complain the victim is remembering to much by acting odd towards them and then the victim will try to justify they should feel jittery next to this person all the while tipping sec off who will perform some random searches. Now you got an antag complaining about being metagamed and then you need to decide which is legit, the victim acting as he did or the antag stating the victim shouldn't have had acted that way. It opens up a new plethora of problems we will have to deal with and quite honestly, not a ton of people want to see implemented anyway.

 

Now you've said something that is a good point; and I argue it's something that the antags will factor in anyways. For example: if I'm a changeling, I'm going to space people anyways because it's certainly going to raise eyebrows when there are two of you walking around! Or if it's a coworker, I'm probably not going to keep them around anyways as there's probably a damn good reason they got knocked off in the first place (maybe they were too nosy!). These are merely provided as examples however, and neither of these things have anything to do with CMD.

 

Anyways, you're right, there's a line that would have to be drawn on what is reasonable and what isn't when avoiding your murderer. But it shouldn't be too terribly hard: a scientist clearly crying out on comms that they are scared of the RD (their murderer) is beating around the bush and is obvious meta. Someone from medbay who is having problems going near their patient and always has their guard up around them however, is subtle and adds a lot of RP value. Yes security could metagame and realize that guy is probably the killer, but it's on the antag to account for this.

 

Just as well, what stops someone from becoming a borg and metagaming them? It's the same problem that doesn't seem to be as severe as you are playing it up to be.

 

This isn't about changing the rules and stating that antags aren't allowed to space people, this is a subtle but far reaching proposal that can and does change a lot of the antag dynamics. People get spaced either because of an objective, or because the victim could point out their killer the moment the pop out of the cloner. Leaving evidence behind is definitely a factor but I've never heard anyone state that as their primary motivation for sending someone into the cold black void.

 

It's also part of most games, and there's no contention there. But, we also have the ability to come back, which is also part of the game. CMD is in the interest of players to continue enjoying the game in the role they wish to play without removing death altogether, which I argue is an enhancement to gameplay.

 

 

The person is still dead. The antag will most likely still hide the body to keep alert levels down. This literally just gives antags a getaway card for when sec finds the body, they have nothing to go off when the person is cloned besides any DNA the killer /might/ have left behind.

 

As opposed to spacing them and making them irrecoverable anyways (thus leaving nothing for sec regardless)? This isn't about making rules against spacing, and getting rid of any evidence is a perfectly acceptable reason. This is strictly to focus on removing the motivation of making bodies irrecoverable due to CMD.

 

Hell, when I play antag, I would LOVE to leave bodies find-able so a person can play again as their character. However, I don't because I can't be sure they won't come out of the cloner screaming curses at me.

 

Finally, security shouldn't be brigging people based on word alone anyways! I know it happens, but it's also something clever antags take advantage of too (and DO!).