Habalabam Posted January 5, 2017 Posted January 5, 2017 Suggestion: I would like the roboticist to be able to pop up the hood on cyborg subversion. One way to accomplish this would be: When lawsynch is pulsed, the borg should not have the option to not state individual laws. I've played a bit as borg. I've never seen the "state laws" actually do anything useful. People do ask for the laws all the time, but it's not really useful. All "bad" laws seem to have the note "Do not state or hint at this law" attached by default. Cyborgs are powerful allies, there should be some risk involved by leaving your digital trace. Oftentimes, antags are stated by name in the laws. To capture a cyborg, bring it to the roboticist for the big "reveal" would add to the dramatic effect. And it would also force the hand of antags and rogue AI. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/9106-robotics-pulsing-lawsynch-should-state-all-laws/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidchan Posted January 5, 2017 Posted January 5, 2017 This seems like a very powergamey way to to see if a borg is rogue, malf or hacked. It'd probably just lead to roboticists checking borgs every round for no reason. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/9106-robotics-pulsing-lawsynch-should-state-all-laws/#findComment-77305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiberDark Posted January 5, 2017 Posted January 5, 2017 I even think the rouge ai should choose, when it is time to updatesthe cyborgs and let them knowing. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/9106-robotics-pulsing-lawsynch-should-state-all-laws/#findComment-77306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habalabam Posted January 5, 2017 Author Posted January 5, 2017 We can always argue accessibility. It could be time consuming or resource consuming (debug card). I just noticed that pulsing the lawsynch currently does nothing. But you agree that it is weird that a roboticist cannot determine how a borg is configured? I agree that it should not devolve into a "always check laws as part of battery upgrade" type of thing. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/9106-robotics-pulsing-lawsynch-should-state-all-laws/#findComment-77310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasneko Posted January 5, 2017 Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) I like it on principle but you cant have it readily accessible or it will lead to major powergaming. Needing something obscure from RnD like a debug card or a high level access card from a head to initiate debug mode on the cyborg should be a requirement so the robotics cant just do a spot check every round. You also need to give the AI or antag a way to defend against this and I think the perfect way is to let the AI choose when or when not to update the Cyborg laws silently. The lore behind an malf AI could be that it has secretly incorporated a "Order 66" in the Cyborg that when switched on overrides the normal laws. Therefore it would make sense that you wont be able to find out about this modification or know about it through normal debug or examination. Also it forces the AI to choose if it needs the help of the Cyborgs and risk being discovered or continue further alone. Edited January 5, 2017 by Guest Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/9106-robotics-pulsing-lawsynch-should-state-all-laws/#findComment-77322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiberDark Posted January 5, 2017 Posted January 5, 2017 I like it on principle but you cant have it readily accessible or it will lead to major powergaming. Needing something obscure from RnD like a debug card or a high level access card from a head to initiate debug mode on the cyborg should be a requirement so the robotics cant just do a spot check every round. You also need to give the AI or antag a way to defend against this and I think the perfect way is to let the AI choose when or when not to update the Cyborg laws silently. The lore behind an malf AI could be that it has secretly incorporated a "Rule 66" in the Cyborg that when switched on overrides the normal laws. Therefore it would make sense that you wont be able to find out about this modification or know about it through normal debug or examination. Also it forces the AI to choose if it needs the help of the Cyborgs and risk being discovered or continue further alone. Also this would help with inexperienced or new players, which unintentionally could blow up your cover. Because the think, they are rouge and could go on a manhunt. An AI Robot-Interface would be nice, where you can select the borgs you like to hack, and enable or disable their weapon systems. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/9106-robotics-pulsing-lawsynch-should-state-all-laws/#findComment-77323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasneko Posted January 5, 2017 Posted January 5, 2017 Whatever! Just make sure to transmit the message "Order 66" when you trigger it to the selected Cyborg! We cant let this reference die! Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/9106-robotics-pulsing-lawsynch-should-state-all-laws/#findComment-77329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doukan Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 Would be fine so long as borgs can counter it by turning off their radio speaker. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/9106-robotics-pulsing-lawsynch-should-state-all-laws/#findComment-77410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citinited Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 Powergaming roboticists could create a new borg, then immediately pulse the LawSync wire, giving the cyborg no time to react. It's a nice idea but I'm fairly sure it would be abused too easily... Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/9106-robotics-pulsing-lawsynch-should-state-all-laws/#findComment-77414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habalabam Posted January 8, 2017 Author Posted January 8, 2017 Yes, if easily accessible, it should be combined with the ability for antags (including malf AI) to withhold their play. As described above. Maybe the laws give too much away, maybe just "checksum fault" or something that doesn't distinguish malf AI from emagging from hacked laws. Merely ascertaining at robotics that a law is withheld might be sufficient. I haven't played that much, but it seems that the "state laws" is pretty much useless. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/9106-robotics-pulsing-lawsynch-should-state-all-laws/#findComment-77416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacemanspark Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 That's the point. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/9106-robotics-pulsing-lawsynch-should-state-all-laws/#findComment-77417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habalabam Posted January 8, 2017 Author Posted January 8, 2017 That's the point. Not that "stating laws" should be useless, surely? Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/9106-robotics-pulsing-lawsynch-should-state-all-laws/#findComment-77419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidchan Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 That's the point. Not that "stating laws" should be useless, surely? Against a loyal/default AI borg, no. How ever with years of meta behind it and people coming up with ways to hide laws or word them in ways that the borg/AI can't out themselves or the tator. For malf/tator AI the Law 0/Malf law just outright says they can do what ever they want. Giving a means to detect these laws WITHOUT carding the AI itself (which can be countered and defended against by rogue silicons) is just idiotic and plain stupid, it'd be like giving security a pill or lie detector that could be used to scan people in the brig for antag status. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/9106-robotics-pulsing-lawsynch-should-state-all-laws/#findComment-77422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habalabam Posted January 8, 2017 Author Posted January 8, 2017 The borg itself is not the antag. It is a tool that risks becoming evidence and using it is part of the risk/benefit consideration of the antag. And if the reveal is limited to just ascertain that it is in some way subverted, but without the specifics, then they still need to puzzle it together to find the real perpetrator. When are you suggesting that "state laws" is yielding something useful? I have often played as borg. Subversion laws "always" come with a provision to not state it or hint at its existence. Link to comment https://www.paradisestation.org/forum/topic/9106-robotics-pulsing-lawsynch-should-state-all-laws/#findComment-77442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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