Remodeled females

[Tykenn]

Long story short, I played an IPC character, got a little miffed that all IPC's are bulky. I wanted some to be not so bulky. Made a post, talked to a few people in the post. one thing lead to another now I made templates for the female body/jumpsuits. I have the right side and front complete, I just want some opinions on them before I go and make/change anymore.

Here you'll see the new model vs the old one.

[FlattestGuitar]

Are you planning on respriting all clothes in the game to fit that sprite?

That's...a lot of work.

[Tykenn]

35 minutes ago, FlattestGuitar said:

Are you planning on respriting all clothes in the game to fit that sprite?

That's...a lot of work.

I probably will, if I get good feedback on these sprites.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Tykenn

[Rurik]

Looks like a good improvement to me

[Tykenn]

2 hours ago, Rurik said:

Looks like a good improvement to me

Thank you very much!

[SkeletalElite]

Looks good, if you can respite all the clothes for this my hat goes off to you because that's a ton of work

[Fox McCloud]

That doesn't look so great, in my opinion.

 

It also comes across distinctively as "lulz, bewbs".

[Fruerlund]

1 hour ago, Fox McCloud said:

It also comes across distinctively as "lulz, bewbs".

Agreeing with Fox here. This is one of those things I feel we should  just leave out and not worry about in general. 

[Tykenn]

5 hours ago, Fruerlund said:

Agreeing with Fox here. This is one of those things I feel we should  just leave out and not worry about in general. 

to each their own I suppose, although you would be right in saying that one of the defining features of females would be breasts- which is normally accompanied by a slimmer figure compared to that of a male.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Tykenn

[Shadeykins]

I don't like the side overhang on the sprites. We have some feminine jumpsuits already and I think you should take inspiration from those instead which make use of shading on the jumpsuits rather than changes in the actual size.

[Tykenn]

1 hour ago, Shadeykins said:

I don't like the side overhang on the sprites. We have some feminine jumpsuits already and I think you should take inspiration from those instead which make use of shading on the jumpsuits rather than changes in the actual size.

The female sprites just look fat, which is the problem I'm trying to fix. for example the sprite I was working on had a bell of four pixels, I'm not even joking. it went past the jumpsuit. so I had to trim that down for the picture because even then it looked too weird to compare the two like that. But to answer your question- No one looks/cares about the shading for the most part. What actually stands out is the contrast between the character and floor. which is what people look at 80-90% of the time they encounter another player.(beside major details in the suit their wearing. yellow for engineering, white for medical etc) so with that in mind I opted to work on the silhouette instead.

[fludd12]

I sorta prefer the old sprite, really. The thinner sprite just makes it look awkward with arm position, and notably, given our pixel limitation, the breasts now look a little bit too massive. Consider that in most natural reference pictures of the female body, the breasts are practically flush with the upper body, with minor deviation given breast size.

[FoS]

I think a little bit of confusion stems from people not understanding that ss13 mob sprite have a really strange perspective in general. What you're seeing isn't part of the hip/side/abdomen/belly it's actually the opposite hand. It's the first three pixels of the hand that stick out and it absolutely does make sense if you consider the intent behind allowing players to see at a glance both of a players hands/legs/feet when facing East/West.

 

One thing that concerns me is it looks like the East/West sprites have been changed really drastically and that's going to cause plenty of problems everytime anyone wants to add or port new sprites from anywhere else that are meant to fit humans. It's an overwhelming amount of work to refit even existing outfits but it complicates anything added in the future and truthfully it seems unlikely that any one person is always going to be around to alter every sprite to fit a new bodyshape.

I did an overlay of your example images since it was hard to tell initially how much change was made. The thing i'm concerned with is that there is significant changes to the east/west sprites and even the head position there. That means every hair/mask accessory has to be repositioned for that as well. That is..quite honestly an absurd amount of work for something that really isn't even needed. At 32 x 32 pixels i don't really think we need this.

[Shadeykins]

I'm aware of the hand position. I'm talking about the north-south overhang at the sides of the sprite.

[Tykenn]

On 11/03/2017 at 10:14 PM, FoS said:

I think a little bit of confusion stems from people not understanding that ss13 mob sprite have a really strange perspective in general. What you're seeing isn't part of the hip/side/abdomen/belly it's actually the opposite hand. It's the first three pixels of the hand that stick out and it absolutely does make sense if you consider the intent behind allowing players to see at a glance both of a players hands/legs/feet when facing East/West.

 

One thing that concerns me is it looks like the East/West sprites have been changed really drastically and that's going to cause plenty of problems everytime anyone wants to add or port new sprites from anywhere else that are meant to fit humans. It's an overwhelming amount of work to refit even existing outfits but it complicates anything added in the future and truthfully it seems unlikely that any one person is always going to be around to alter every sprite to fit a new bodyshape.

I did an overlay of your example images since it was hard to tell initially how much change was made. The thing i'm concerned with is that there is significant changes to the east/west sprites and even the head position there. That means every hair/mask accessory has to be repositioned for that as well. That is..quite honestly an absurd amount of work for something that really isn't even needed. At 32 x 32 pixels i don't really think we need this.

for the green fade out of the "left" hand was actually four pixels(2x2), and honestly if it were the case no-one holds their hands out like that. it's like how FPS' handle weapons, realistically you don't always have your weapon in front of you. And the same goes with the left hand thing.

Do I think it changes gameplay? Not really, most items that would extend out from the character are related with ill intent.(except for a few small cases) but at the same time you wouldn't be able to see what someone held in their hand anyway if they were standing to the side of you.

Also the head is moved one pixel back to line up with the spine correctly(even in the default version the head is misplaced.) which I'm sure not many of you have noticed, but as soon as I did, I couldn't stop looking at it.

I understand what you're all saying but the sprites are fundamentally broken somewhat when it comes to proper anatomy, and yes in my opinion  the boobs look slightly too big but again those "giant breasts" are sticking out by one pixel. if the game allowed higher resolution sprites I could have made them better but we're limited.

Is it a lot of work? Yes, do we need it? No. But do we need anything new added to the server? That would also be no. All of the alien races aren't needed either, but it's extra content. Just because it isn't needed doesn't mean it isn't welcomed. League of legends for example has an excellent framework, it's always evolving and it never changes core gameplay elements, the developers don't need to change anything in league at all. Yet they do it anyway, to refresh the game so it doesn't become dull and repetitive. I know comparing those two games isn't the best analogy, but think why you came to the server in the first place. Was it because it wasn't like the others? You can only set up the solars; make pills, or physically abuse the clown so many times before it becomes too repetitive to continue.

[FoS]

7 hours ago, Tykenn said:

for the green fade out of the "left" hand was actually four pixels(2x2), and honestly if it were the case no-one holds their hands out like that. it's like how FPS' handle weapons, realistically you don't always have your weapon in front of you. And the same goes with the left hand thing.

Do I think it changes gameplay? Not really, most items that would extend out from the character are related with ill intent.(except for a few small cases) but at the same time you wouldn't be able to see what someone held in their hand anyway if they were standing to the side of you.
 

My mistake. You altered the 'before' picture and slimmed that down a little bit as well for some reason. At which point yes, the part i highlighted /is/ the abdomen because you removed the hand entirely in the before sprite. Which .dmi are you editing anyways? is it the one located in icons > mobs > human_races> r_human.dmi ?

8 hours ago, Tykenn said:

Also the head is moved one pixel back to line up with the spine correctly(even in the default version the head is misplaced.) which I'm sure not many of you have noticed, but as soon as I did, I couldn't stop looking at it.

I understand what you're all saying but the sprites are fundamentally broken somewhat when it comes to proper anatomy, and yes in my opinion  the boobs look slightly too big but again those "giant breasts" are sticking out by one pixel. if the game allowed higher resolution sprites I could have made them better but we're limited.

Is it a lot of work? Yes, do we need it? No. But do we need anything new added to the server? That would also be no. All of the alien races aren't needed either, but it's extra content. Just because it isn't needed doesn't mean it isn't welcomed. League of legends for example has an excellent framework, it's always evolving and it never changes core gameplay elements, the developers don't need to change anything in league at all. Yet they do it anyway, to refresh the game so it doesn't become dull and repetitive. I know comparing those two games isn't the best analogy, but think why you came to the server in the first place. Was it because it wasn't like the others? You can only set up the solars; make pills, or physically abuse the clown so many times before it becomes too repetitive to continue.

I understand the points you're trying to make. You're approaching it from an artistic point of view and you're right that ss13 sprites in general do not make sense when it comes to realism or perspective but that isn't the point I am trying to make.

While things may not be realistic and while ss13 might be a mishmash of weird perspective choices there are reasons those choices benefit the players as a whole. When nearly every player mob uses the same base-human shape it means that our player sprites are essentially compatible with any past and future content from any other server (since...most servers use the same human sprites.).

Not everyone is an artist and not everyone wants to devote the time to change literally thousands of sprites. Vox are currently the most dramatically different bodyshape and they've been here for as long as the server has and yet hardly any of the numerous worn sprites that other player mobs can wear even fit vox.

For a sprite to be altered so much from the standard base model you essentially have to edit and make new versions of everything located in  belt.dmi/ears.dmi/eyes.dmi/hands.dmi/human_face.dmi/mask/suit.dmi/underwear.dmi/uniform.dmi. There are 330 items in uniform.dmi alone and four directions for every sprite. Even if we assume that most outfits are symmetrical and that you merely flip the east/west sprite and use the north sprite as the base for the south sprite that's still 165 sprites to make to cover that one .dmi and we're not even touching on how long that would take. There's a lot of unique outfits that are not just recolors and some outfits are terribly complicated.

You have to stop and consider that currently when people add/port new clothing/hair/worn items it generally is for the standard human shape and those people are probably not going to make versions that fit an altered female model (this is what currently happens with vox). You're going to hit a point then where human females wont be able to wear new things. This isn't the same as a game adding new content to spice things up. This is a purely cosmetic change that essentially breaks existing content and increases the workload for anyone who wants to add in new worn sprites.

 

[Dumbdumn5]

It just looks a bit off, nearly skeletal or anorexic to me. For other reasons stated far more elaborately above (spriting work needed on your part and future spriters, awkward and unnatural positioning, etc.), I'm heavily against this change and would prefer that the sprites be left how they are at the moment. It simply makes new content harder to make in the future and looks strange compared to the standard, what would be male sprite.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Dumbdumn5

[Tykenn]

7 hours ago, FoS said:

My mistake. You altered the 'before' picture and slimmed that down a little bit as well for some reason. At which point yes, the part i highlighted /is/ the abdomen because you removed the hand entirely in the before sprite. Which .dmi are you editing anyways? is it the one located in icons > mobs > human_races> r_human.dmi ?

I understand the points you're trying to make. You're approaching it from an artistic point of view and you're right that ss13 sprites in general do not make sense when it comes to realism or perspective but that isn't the point I am trying to make.

While things may not be realistic and while ss13 might be a mishmash of weird perspective choices there are reasons those choices benefit the players as a whole. When nearly every player mob uses the same base-human shape it means that our player sprites are essentially compatible with any past and future content from any other server (since...most servers use the same human sprites.).

Not everyone is an artist and not everyone wants to devote the time to change literally thousands of sprites. Vox are currently the most dramatically different bodyshape and they've been here for as long as the server has and yet hardly any of the numerous worn sprites that other player mobs can wear even fit vox.

For a sprite to be altered so much from the standard base model you essentially have to edit and make new versions of everything located in  belt.dmi/ears.dmi/eyes.dmi/hands.dmi/human_face.dmi/mask/suit.dmi/underwear.dmi/uniform.dmi. There are 330 items in uniform.dmi alone and four directions for every sprite. Even if we assume that most outfits are symmetrical and that you merely flip the east/west sprite and use the north sprite as the base for the south sprite that's still 165 sprites to make to cover that one .dmi and we're not even touching on how long that would take. There's a lot of unique outfits that are not just recolors and some outfits are terribly complicated.

You have to stop and consider that currently when people add/port new clothing/hair/worn items it generally is for the standard human shape and those people are probably not going to make versions that fit an altered female model (this is what currently happens with vox). You're going to hit a point then where human females wont be able to wear new things. This isn't the same as a game adding new content to spice things up. This is a purely cosmetic change that essentially breaks existing content and increases the workload for anyone who wants to add in new worn sprites.

 

I agree with you, well said.