Medical cyborgs

[adamkad1]

Medical cyborgs should get grabbers like drones have, but ones that could pick up organs, pills and patches, so that you dont have to rely so much on humans in that accord

Its really annoying when you ask for help doing surgery and no doctor wants to come. also its not easy to get advanced chems in bottle form too, chemists usually dont make bottles of stuff and medborgs got limited amount of healchems

[Shadeykins]

This is deliberate by design. Borgs are not meant to have hands and they are not meant to be human equivalents or replacements.

 

IIRC it's a deliberate design decision for there to be such limits on the magnetic grippers, but I could be wrong.

[adamkad1]

well, good luck doing surgery while all doctors are braindead, literally or not

[necaladun]

Working as designed - medborgs are meant to rely on people with hands.

[Spacemanspark]

Borgs are meant to be stronger in some ways, but not having arms is one of those tradeoffs.

[Dinarzad]

What Mediborgs ACTUALLY need is for their hypo to be less of a shit when it comes to refilling it's chems.
It only refills the chem currently selected which is weird. You'd think it'd refill everything or everything BUT the one selected.

[adamkad1]

now, if you ever wanted to add this, you could port it from tg, cause they added this-

"Added organ storage bags for medical cyborgs. They can hold an organic body part. Use the bag on a carbon during organ manipulation or prosthetic replacement to add the held body part."

[EvadableMoxie]

On 3/12/2017 at 4:31 PM, adamkad1 said:

well, good luck doing surgery while all doctors are braindead, literally or not

Every job has the problem of not getting done when there is no one to do it. If there are no doctors, you have to deal with that, same as you'd have to deal with having no engineers or no security.  Yea, it's going to suck, but that's by design.  It's what makes jobs important and worth doing in the first place. 

[BiberDark]

On 12.3.2017 at 11:19 PM, Spacemanspark said:

Borgs are meant to be stronger in some ways, but not having arms is one of those tradeoffs. ........

 

 

 

 

 

My oppinion : I realy  think this server is a bunch of silicon hating people.  The tradeoff for beeing a borg is to have no free will. Why should a specifically build borg for a certain task not do a better job then a human. The key is the human is a allrounder. You can do everything, you have free will, you can change your job to more than a dozen types. You are easily healed and revived. And you are even more robost than any borg. (flash stun / ,, disabled and offline )The list goes on forever. As borg you rely on robotics and if nobody is there you are basically fu**. 

It is time to change the server policy to improve the silicon live not to harass it even more. Make them superiour in the restricted tasks they have.

If now someone says :

All access  --> to what to do ?  There is no point to this argument. The AI would open it for a human with a reason to.

Spaceproof --> Minor, and if you are not an engineering borg you will drift forever lost in space, because you cant throw things.

Heat / Cold resistance --> No reason to it with current atmos, there anever super cooled or hot aired sectors. Outside a reactor. High damage on EMP too.

No illness --> Yes but you cant be improved with genetics, too

Improvement with boards --> Human can use every machine /item the got hands on.

No food  --> you need energy , dependant on science and a willing roboticist.

No arms --> a disgracefull misconstruction by silicon hating people, who think you stole their Butter bread

immortal --> if you think tis is a pro you were never blown apart or disabled in maintainance , where you can watch the ongoing round for an enternity, because nobody looks for you , even sader if there is no other cyborg on board. Who could look after you. Nobody cares.

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by BiberDark

[adamkad1]

11 hours ago, BiberDark said:

My oppinion : I realy  think this server is a bunch of silicon hating people.  The tradeoff for beeing a borg is to have no free will. Why should a specifically build borg for a certain task not do a better job then a human. The key is the human is a allrounder. You can do everything, you have free will, you can change your job to more than a dozen types. You are easily healed and revived. And you are even more robost than any borg. (flash stun / ,, disabled and offline )The list goes on forever. As borg you rely on robotics and if nobody is there you are basically fu**. 

It is time to change the server policy to improve the silicon live not to harass it even more. Make them superiour in the restricted tasks they have.

If now someone says :

All access  --> to what to do ?  There is no point to this argument. The AI would open it for a human with a reason to.

Spaceproof --> Minor, and if you are not an engineering borg you will drift forever lost in space, because you cant throw things.

Heat / Cold resistance --> No reason to it with current atmos, there anever super cooled or hot aired sectors. Outside a reactor. High damage on EMP too.

No illness --> Yes but you cant be improved with genetics, too

Improvement with boards --> Human can use every machine /item the got hands on.

No food  --> you need energy , dependant on science and a willing roboticist.

No arms --> a disgracefull misconstruction by silicon hating people, who think you stole their Butter bread

immortal --> if you think tis is a pro you were never blown apart or disabled in maintainance , where you can watch the ongoing round for an enternity, because nobody looks for you , even sader if there is no other cyborg on board. Who could look after you. Nobody cares.

 

This guy is damn right. Humans are universal, why would you handicap cyborgs if they can do only ONE role?

[Landerlow]

I agree with the two posters above me. Also: For medical borgs, add some chem dispenser functionality with the beaker, it can save lives. I do not understand WHY borgs have these senseless limitations. There is the one tradeoff and that is free will. Cyborgs/droids SHOULD be able to replace doctors if necessary. Yes, they are supposed to assist in the first place, and adhere to their laws, but it just makes no sense that borgs do not have hands. They are not OP, they can be taken out easily if you have the tools, they can only harm people when rogue, they have laws in place to prevent free will and they can be blown up in a moment's notice.

 

This also is not just the case for medical borgs, engineering borgs face the same problem sometimes. I can understand, for example, maintenance drones not having hands, but cyborgs should have them, or at least some more functionality than what currently exists. A big can of space cleaner for medical borgs to clean up the medical bay which no doctor but the surgeons bother with? Functionality with beakers? 

 

Engineering borgs should have a light replacer.

Janitor borgs could have increased functionality with their trash bag. -> Lots of small items, be it cup ramen or other things cannot be put in there, they just can't be interacted with with the trash bag. It's frustrating.

 

Borg are good, don't get me wrong, but there are some senseless limitations on the current borgs.

[EvadableMoxie]

23 hours ago, adamkad1 said:

This guy is damn right. Humans are universal, why would you handicap cyborgs if they can do only ONE role?

 

Most humans only do one role.  Sure, the bartender is physically capable of setting up engine containment but if the bartender breaks into engineering to do that, you can bet the actual engineers are going to beat him to death with various tools before they let him anywhere near containment.  Likewise, if the Barber is in the OR trying to do heart surgery, the CMO is going to tell him to get the hell out before they call security.

I know how to set up the engine and I've done it several times, but I've never ever had to do it as a doctor in a live game. Maybe one day we'll get a round with literally zero engineers and my time to shine will come, but it hasn't happened yet.

There are very few situations where humans need to do multiple things. Maybe on smaller populations that happens more often but when you have 100+ people and every role filled, there isn't often any reason to do another department's job for them, and it's at best kind of rude to do so. 

[HarakoniWarhawk]

It seems to be a disturbing trend on this server that anything that seems to buff Borgs, no matter how minor gets instantly shot down.

I've had Doctors threaten to have me blown simply because I was doing their job when they were too incompetent to do it themselves.

You don't decide to design a Borg to have advanced tools and arms then decide to remove any sort of manipulator device.

Quite a few of the Borg sprites including Black Knight, Advanced Droid and all of Travelling Merchant's Borg sprites have hands or at least manipulation devices but do not possess any capability to pick up objects.

You can magically buckle people to furniture, pull objects and similar actions despite having no hands.

It's pretty clear Borgs as a role are designed to be crippled and sub par compared to organics.

Each side has distinct advantages and disadvantages but Borgs having no or limited ability to pick up objects is a decision that seems to be rooted in the 'Borgs ah stealin ma job' opinion.

[Varlun]

I agree with pretty much what everyone has said- EXCEPT those with fancy colorful names AKA The People in Charge. Why is the leadership seemingly so disconnected from their playerbase? Despite popular opinion clearly being swayed one way, they still don't budge... Stop the hate on Borgs. They should be superior at their specific roles, not inferior. Life as a Borg is one of service- you're a good guy, except in the case you get emagged or whatever.

[HarakoniWarhawk]

1 hour ago, Varlun said:

I agree with pretty much what everyone has said- EXCEPT those with fancy colorful names AKA The People in Charge. Why is the leadership seemingly so disconnected from their playerbase? Despite popular opinion clearly being swayed one way, they still don't budge... Stop the hate on Borgs. They should be superior at their specific roles, not inferior. Life as a Borg is one of service- you're a good guy, except in the case you get emagged or whatever.

It's less them being disconnected and more having a bias against Silicons.

Hell just look at the Remove Sec Borgs suggeston thread and you'll get all the info you need about people's opinions on Borgs.

[Varlun]

12 minutes ago, HarakoniWarhawk said:

It's less them being disconnected and more having a bias against Silicons.

Hell just look at the Remove Sec Borgs suggeston thread and you'll get all the info you need about people's opinions on Borgs.

Pathetic.

[owenowen101]

On 30/04/2017 at 9:36 AM, BiberDark said:

If now someone says :

All access  --> to what to do ?  There is no point to this argument. The AI would open it for a human with a reason to.

Spaceproof --> Minor, and if you are not an engineering borg you will drift forever lost in space, because you cant throw things.

Heat / Cold resistance --> No reason to it with current atmos, there anever super cooled or hot aired sectors. Outside a reactor. High damage on EMP too.

No illness --> Yes but you cant be improved with genetics, too

Improvement with boards --> Human can use every machine /item the got hands on.

No food  --> you need energy , dependant on science and a willing roboticist.

No arms --> a disgracefull misconstruction by silicon hating people, who think you stole their Butter bread

immortal --> if you think tis is a pro you were never blown apart or disabled in maintainance , where you can watch the ongoing round for an enternity, because nobody looks for you , even sader if there is no other cyborg on board. Who could look after you. Nobody cares.

The thing is, cyborgs are powerful and the majority of people who think of borgs in this way are thinking about it in the context of security cyborgs:

Quote

All access  --> to what to do ?  There is no point to this argument. The AI would open it for a human with a reason to.

All access - this is immensely powerful as a security cyborg as not only does it allow you to open, bolt and shock any door but allows you to be incredibly pro-active in patroling. Heard a scream from the chef's freezer? Just pop in and have a look, no need to hang around shouting in chat for a minute asking the AI to open the door. Get to where you are needed very quickly and catch people in the act very easily.

Quote

Spaceproof --> Minor, and if you are not an engineering borg you will drift forever lost in space, because you cant throw things.

Spaceproof - again, can be very useful as a security cyborg and they too have no issues with navigating space as they can use their disablers as a means of thrust. Many antags take to space in order to access the AI satellite, perma brig or the armoury. This is relatively safe as the number of security hardsuits or space-worthy security members is often limited, but security cyborgs can easily navigate space at full speed, in effect always being in a hardsuit without the penalty to movement speed.

Lack of stuns and general robustness - being unable to push, disarm, slip or throw cyborgs is a very powerful advantage for a cyborg in combat and makes a fight against them quite unconventional and tricky if you're not adequately prepared for an encounter specifically with a borg. I know many newer players who are not familiar with the meta for dealing with cyborgs (EMPs and/or flashes) get quite thrown off by a fight with a cyborg. On top of this, the ability of a cyborg to 'nudge' people a couple of tiles is quite annoying. 

Quote

Heat / Cold resistance --> No reason to it with current atmos, there anever super cooled or hot aired sectors.

You're right, super-cooled areas are uncommon but plasma fires are not that uncommon and rightly so cyborgs take fire/heat damage.

Quote

High damage on EMP

And vulnerable to flashes, yes. But I would argue that both EMPs and flashes are hard but niche counters to cyborgs. Sure the EMP kit costs only 4TC as a traitor and is a bargain but if you don't have either of these items, you're badly prepared for a cyborg and the sudden appearance of one can be an antag's swift undoing. Though any traitor can acquire the EMP kit, it isn't always assured that every traitor can aquire a flash. You can't always just ask robotics or someone else for one and get it. Most people aren't short-sighted enough to not realise what you might use it for.

Quote

No illness --> Yes but you cant be improved with genetics, too

This also means no blood, no bleeding and no reagents. You cannot poison a cyborg to death or suffocate it/choke it, shoot it with knock-out chemicals or irradiate it.

Quote

Improvement with boards --> Human can use every machine /item the got hands on.

Some upgrades for cyborgs are very poweful. Vtec makes borgs very fast and improved batteries or yellow slime-core batteries give a cyborg very large or rechargable batteries, respectively. These upgrades are not difficult to acquire either and can easily be obtained within the first half hour of a shift.

Quote

No food  --> you need energy , dependant on science and a willing roboticist.

Not having to eat food isn't a big advantage but needing energy as a borg is hardly a disadvantage considering its insignificance in light of some of the upgrades mentioned above. Finding a willing roboticist isn't hard and recharging stations for cyborgs are easily accessible, since you have all access anyway.

Quote

No arms

If they did have arms and were able to manipulate all items and objects to the same extent as humans, humans would be almost totally redundant.

Quote

a disgracefull misconstruction by silicon hating people, who think you stole their Butter bread

Wot

Quote

immortal --> if you think tis is a pro you were never blown apart or disabled in maintainance , where you can watch the ongoing round for an enternity, because nobody looks for you , even sader if there is no other cyborg on board. Who could look after you. Nobody cares.

AIs and roboticists generally care about their borgs. If you do die you can often times easily respawn as another positronic brain, ready to be put into another cyborg.

Edited May 4, 2017 by owenowen101

[BiberDark]

Quote

The thing is, cyborgs are powerful and the majority of people who think of borgs in this way are thinking about it in the context of security cyborgs:

But borgs do not just consist of security borgs. It is one of 6 choices ( janitor,service,standard,engineering,security,medical ).

Quote

 I know many newer players who are not familiar with the meta for dealing with cyborgs (EMPs and/or flashes) get quite thrown off by a fight with a cyborg. On top of this, the ability of a cyborg to 'nudge' people a couple of tiles is quite annoying. 

But 90 % of server pop know how to do that. You have to base such decisions on regular players not newbies to the game. 

Quote

Not having to eat food isn't a big advantage but needing energy as a borg is hardly a disadvantage considering its insignificance in light of some of the upgrades mentioned above. Finding a willing roboticist isn't hard and recharging stations for cyborgs are easily accessible, since you have all access anyway.

Maybe you have all access but there are only 3 positions where you can charge Ai-Core / Robotics / Showerroom. All of them can be easily deconstructed disabled in case of a rouge AI and a Command Crew who knows there stuff.  A human took some food ( 3 seconds ) a cyborg has to be a long time in it to recharge the bigger cells, and the energy drain from rcds, or stunbats is immense. Not to forget you can be easily blown.

PS : The rouge Ai should have a possibility to disable the self destruct function in every borg. / And Permastun borgs is a issue, it is just unfair.

Quote

If they did have arms and were able to manipulate all items and objects to the same extent as humans, humans would be almost totally redundant.

Free will ? Humans would be never redudant. Did you see ever a borg building a other borg. We are dependent on meatbags. We cant even upgrade ourself. And we are limited to one and only one job if not a human resets us. 

Quote

All access - this is immensely powerful as a security cyborg as not only does it allow you to open, bolt and shock any door but allows you to be incredibly pro-active in patroling. Heard a scream from the chef's freezer? Just pop in and have a look, no need to hang around shouting in chat for a minute asking the AI to open the door. Get to where you are needed very quickly and catch people in the act very easily.

Electrified Doors --> Insulated gloves easily obtainable by cargo and engineering.

Door Crushing --> The door stun is to short to really kill on . It should kill with the first hit. 800 punds of metal crushing in your head and tearing you into to parts should not be only damage you 10 % of your health bar.

Screaming --> to be honest everybody and everywhere people are screaming. It is no surround sound so you have to check many rooms. Mostly it is to late and in 90 % the killer is a silent one.

Quote

Spaceproof - again, can be very useful as a security cyborg and they too have no issues with navigating space as they can use their disablers as a means of thrust. Many antags take to space in order to access the AI satellite, perma brig or the armoury. This is relatively safe as the number of security hardsuits or space-worthy security members is often limited, but security cyborgs can easily navigate space at full speed, in effect always being in a hardsuit without the penalty to movement speed.

The Ai sat is terrible in my oppinion, you are to far away from the station. Syndics with piercing bullets can oneshoot you. Even before you notice they are even there. Happend to me. Nobody will notice it until it is to late. The Layout is idiotic turrets will kill themselves because the even fire if you stand in direct line. It is fat to easy to entry from one of the sites east south west.  Next problem a straight line of fire from north directly into the ai core. The constructor at nanotrasen should be hanged for that.

Help is difficult because no hardsuit for security.

Quote

AIs and roboticists generally care about their borgs. If you do die you can often times easily respawn as another positronic brain, ready to be put into another cyborg.

They do not!  Last round i waited s secborg for over 35min  in the robotics lab. There were to roboticist, but they were more occupied with building mechs. Even more disturbing one fixed me but don´t insert a battery for 20 minutes. This cell was laying directly next to me.

We need an automatic borg repair utility , maybe for balance reason a constructed one, were you can slowly repair yourselve even without a roboticist.

Edited May 6, 2017 by BiberDark

[GunDOS]

Alrighty, to clear this up a little.

The AI is there to assist the crew with station running, it is not there to do the crews jobs. Borgs, are there to assist individual departments in certain tasks, not make the entire department obsolete. Borgs are given limitations for balance reasons, there is no "silicon hate" as you said. 

On a side note, it's outright disrespectful to assume that the "fancy colorful names" don't play on the server. You may not see them playing, but I assure you they do. You may have a different opinion to them, but that does not make yours or their opinion Invalid. I would also ask that you dont attack people personally, it's the arguments that you should be fighting. Not the people making them.

[BiberDark]

I don't see where i have attacked people. And I think your Idea if balance is wrong. If they were balanced they would be equal, not like a slave and a wealthy master. And a argument on a poor layout of the station is not an attack, instead it is a way to improve the station overall. Progress comes with change. I never attacked anyone with "fancy color names". But i do see that many people would like to remove silicons at all, I even read long postings about this issue in the past here and on github. We the silicon players have to communicate our doubts and problems. And the bluntly argument thats for balance is not helpfull at all, instead it is insulting for us silicon players who were treated as less important than a standard human.

 

PS : We spoke about cyborgs not the AI, they Ai is a completely different aspect with its own issues.

Edited May 7, 2017 by BiberDark

[HarakoniWarhawk]

9 hours ago, Saul Argon said:

The AI is there to assist the crew with station running, it is not there to do the crews jobs. Borgs, are there to assist individual departments in certain tasks, not make the entire department obsolete. Borgs are given limitations for balance reasons, there is no "silicon hate" as you said. 

Saul, Silicon hate is a real thing, anyone who plays Silicons can tell you that.

Silicons are as sapient as organics but people treat them and the AI the same as they would treat station equipment.

Crew telling Borgs to go kill themselves because they are causing 'harm' happens on occasion but they are allowed to and the Staff don't care.

If I repeatedly told another player to go kill themselves then I would get Boinked pretty soon but if someone does it to me when I'm a Borg, the staff don't care.

Silicon hate is real but denying it exists is not just a dick move, it's sticking your hands over your ears and going Là Là Là while ignoring the problem.

[WingedYordle]

While we are on subject.

I feel as Wolf O'Shaw is not badass enough and I would like to have him to have the ability to interact any air lock, air control and APCs with his mind, instead of eating, have a personal charging station and talk quietly with cyborgs without having anyone listen in...unless they have binery chip in their headset. 

That is all.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Trubus

[Spacemanspark]

Trubus.

No.

[pazneria12]

5 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

Trubus.

No.

Trubus.

Yes

[GunDOS]

16 hours ago, BiberDark said:

I don't see where i have attacked people. And I think your Idea if balance is wrong. If they were balanced they would be equal, not like a slave and a wealthy master. And a argument on a poor layout of the station is not an attack, instead it is a way to improve the station overall. Progress comes with change. I never attacked anyone with "fancy color names". But i do see that many people would like to remove silicons at all, I even read long postings about this issue in the past here and on github. We the silicon players have to communicate our doubts and problems. And the bluntly argument thats for balance is not helpfull at all, instead it is insulting for us silicon players who were treated as less important than a standard human.

 

PS : We spoke about cyborgs not the AI, they Ai is a completely different aspect with its own issues.

When I was talking about the personal attack I was referring to your comment on "fancy colour names" and your generalisations about them not playing the server. That is by definition you trying to shut down their argument by invalidating the person making it. You also forget that I am also a silicon player, who appointed you as our spokes person? I have just as much a right to speak. And so does everyone else.

Those threads, for example Love to hug's removal of sec borgs thread, Would never ever happen, we're not gonna remove borgs there may be a few people who believe that. But I don't think the majority of the player base, and to be honest the maintainers who matter more, agree with that standpoint. Add to that the very small minority of the player base who actually talk on the forums.

On balance, this is a video game. It must appeal to every player playing not just us.

On the fact I mentioned AI, apologies. I agree that is a whole new kettle of fish.

15 hours ago, HarakoniWarhawk said:

Saul, Silicon hate is a real thing, anyone who plays Silicons can tell you that.

Silicons are as sapient as organics but people treat them and the AI the same as they would treat station equipment.

Crew telling Borgs to go kill themselves because they are causing 'harm' happens on occasion but they are allowed to and the Staff don't care.

If I repeatedly told another player to go kill themselves then I would get Boinked pretty soon but if someone does it to me when I'm a Borg, the staff don't care.

Silicon hate is real but denying it exists is not just a dick move, it's sticking your hands over your ears and going Là Là Là while ignoring the problem.

I was referring to you implying that the cause of this was "silicon hate" I was not denying that people dislike machines. I was denying that the reason we are saddled with balance decisions like this was due to the hate of silicons.

I can say most assuredly that the staff do care if someone is being a dick. It's a matter of Ahelping. The admins aren't omnipotent and if you seem like you don't care, they don't need to try and fix it for you. They can't see what's inside your head, you have to tell them that.

lastly "silicon hate", "IPC hate", "shitcurity" and so on are not going away any time soon. It's a community problem, that honestly I have no idea how to fix.