Medical cyborgs

[necaladun]

A: This "fancy colourful name" would like people to speak a lot more kindly to each other.

B: Borgs are not meant to be balanced compared to normal station crew. They are not meant to be equals, in law, or ability. Something so mechanically different will never be truly balanced. If you want balance, I recommend starcraft or paper-scissors-rock.

C: Silicon players are not a different class or race of people. They are players like anyone else. If someone hates the players because they play silicons, they're a moron. One can dislike the code and roles borg play on the station without hating the players. If you take someones preferences for how they want roles and code in SS13 to be as a personal attack, you're a moron. 

D: If people are telling you (the player) to go kill themselves, then you ahelp it. If you're being told, ICly, to kill yourself, then that's generally an IC issue, and often a valid way of disposing of law-bound characters.

E: See point A.

[BiberDark]

Quote

 Borgs are not meant to be balanced compared to normal station crew. They are not meant to be equals, in law, or ability. Something so mechanically different will never be truly balanced. If you want balance, I recommend starcraft or paper-scissors-rock.

And exactly this is the problem here. They should be equal.

Like you said here 

Quote

Silicon players are not a different class or race of people. They are players like anyone else.

 

[Spacemanspark]

As a person that pretty much dominates the synthetic realm after literally playing it for the past two or so years (borgs, AI, IPC you name it)...

Borgs are in a decent place. They have upsides and downsides.

On 5/9/2017 at 10:21 AM, BiberDark said:

And exactly this is the problem here. They should be equal.

Why should they be equal? Sure, they'll fall short in some areas, but they dominate other aspects of their jobs. That's the point. They're meant to do their job, but not completely take over their human counterparts.

[Varlun]

1 minute ago, Spacemanspark said:

Why should they be equal? Sure, they'll fall short in some areas, but they dominate other aspects of their jobs. That's the point. They're meant to do their job, but not completely take over their human counterparts.

This guy gets it.

[Dinarzad]

5 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

Why should they be equal? Sure, they'll fall short in some areas, but they dominate other aspects of their jobs. That's the point. They're meant to do their job, but not completely take over their human counterparts.

That's one mindset, but the alternative mindset is that, a Cyborg gives up their free will, they are totally subservient to the AI and in some cases the Crew, and also give up all their flexibility and use of hands. They have the tools they have and that is it.  In exchange for giving up your free will and flexibility you become a specialized machine that excels in it's chosen field.
A human/crew is flexible, can do all the things, even as a specific job, if you have to, you can always go do what needs doing yourself (Where sensible, of course.)
A Cyborg is inflexible. If it is not in their modules they can't perform that function. They can't elect to ignore their boss or exist as an individual if the AI says jump you don't get to ask it "Why" you get to fucking jump.

So the response is why should someone who sacrifices all their free will, choice and flexibility to be a specialized machine in a specific field NOT dominate the aspects of those jobs?
(My own opinion is I have no opinion, simply trying to clarify and articulate the opposing viewpoint so a more cohesive and holistic discussion/debate can be had)

Edited May 20, 2017 by Dinarzad

[shazbot194]

4 hours ago, Spacemanspark said:

Why should they be equal? Sure, they'll fall short in some areas, but they dominate other aspects of their jobs. That's the point. They're meant to do their job, but not completely take over their human counterparts.

I have a major problem with this, and that is borg vs crew in terms of power vs time. Right now, I would say most borgs are ok when it comes to balance at the start of the shift. Some are more competent at their jobs then others. However, as the round progresses, they are very quickly outmatched by the crew in everything. A medical borg cannot do some needed surgeries all on their own and cannot make use of most chems available outside of offering the person a pill to take themselves nor can they make super useful chems outside of charcoal and spaceicilin, which if you need that much of the latter, something went major went wrong and other means might will almost always be a better fix. Security borgs cannot use any lethals, at all minus the harmbaton, but this puts them into range of their direct counter, a flash whereas officers get AEGs, xray guns with xray implants, Adrenalin, shotguns, auto rifles, massed laser guns ect. Service borgs get the shortest end of the stick as they almost directly need a person to help them to make some of the basic drinks. I honestly do not see one aspect of any borg that dominates it's field for long, with one exception, and its the mining borg which matches miners mining ability when upgraded, but is still heavily limited whereas miners are not.

These could be fixed with upgrades, as when R&D does their jobs, it can make borgs useless, so why not have R&D upgrade borgs too. We already have some upgrades for borgs, but a lot of these can be very lackluster, with the exception of the mining borg upgrades. A good example of what I am talking about are ion booster upgrade. They let borgs fly in 0-G, which is something very useful and lets them take advantage of being able to be space born even better, whereas the disabler cool-down does help a lot, but it only helps via numbers, and doesn't address many of the problems with disables, such as fighting bigger foes, like nuke ops. I am not saying they should be as good as crew in all areas, but they should be able to at least match the crew in some and not be outpaced fully 20 minutes into a round, which I think would mean more upgrades meaty upgrades, for instance, a gripper could be a possible upgrade for medical borgs, a drink maker for service, maybe even have these upgrades be specializations for borgs, for example, a medical borg could get an upgrade to their hypo spray which would make more useful chems, but loose out on getting a gripper for surgery, and vise versa to add some depth to upgrades rather then just print them all out for a new borg once it picks it's module.

1 minute ago, Dinarzad said:

(My own opinion is I have no opinion, simply trying to clarify and articulate the opposing viewpoint so a more cohesive and holistic discussion/debate can be had)

I wish I could be more neutral, and I thank you for trying to keep this from becoming hostile

 

If for some reason you want some more of my thoughts on why I think aren't as powerful as people think they are and it to be in the context of security borgs vs shadowlings, please read this.

[TullyBBurnalot]

3 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

That's one mindset, but the alternative mindset is that, a Cyborg gives up their free will, they are totally subservient to the AI and in some cases the Crew, and also give up all their flexibility and use of hands. They have the tools they have and that is it.  In exchange for giving up your free will and flexibility you become a specialized machine that excels in it's chosen field.

Working As Intended/Designed (TM).

3 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

A Cyborg is inflexible. If it is not in their modules they can't perform that function. They can't elect to ignore their boss or exist as an individual if the AI says jump you don't get to ask it "Why" you get to fucking jump.

See above.

3 hours ago, Dinarzad said:

So the response is why should someone who sacrifices all their free will, choice and flexibility to be a specialized machine in a specific field NOT dominate the aspects of those jobs?

There's a bit of a misunderstanding here.

Cyborgs are specialized in a particular field. This does not mean they are excelling at this field, it simply means they are designed to only work in that field. They have been optimized to do that work.

I've seen a lot of misunderstanding in this thread about the role of Cyborgs, especially coming from "More Power" advocates. This is not a random PR that someone made that made Cyborgs what they are; this is a concerted effort of server direction. Some servers give Cyborgs more power than Paradise, others give them less, we give them this.

This is a core concept of our server direction. It's one of those a priori  things that you honestly have little recourse but to assume that's how it works, sort of how we allow everyone to know about Antagonists if they so desire. It's just how things work, as they were designed to work that way.

2 hours ago, shazbot194 said:

However, as the round progresses, they are very quickly outmatched by the crew in everything.

This is demonstrably false. Every single thing the crew can outmatch a borg at, they can do so at the start of the round. If anything, only tools and implements change, and even that is at the whims of Mining, Research and (for more dangerous stuff) Command.

Sure, Security Officers can be equipped with X-Ray Vision implants, or be given Anti-Drop or have shields and guns, but that still requires other people to do their jobs, whilst Cyborgs are under no constraint, having their equipment on them at all times.

Hell, you might even say Cyborgs are in a great position, being immune to theft of their tools and equipment.

2 hours ago, shazbot194 said:

A medical borg cannot do some needed surgeries all on their own and cannot make use of most chems available outside of offering the person a pill to take themselves nor can they make super useful chems outside of charcoal and spaceicilin, which if you need that much of the latter, something went major went wrong and other means might will almost always be a better fix.

Working as Intended/Designed (TM).

A lot of people seem to be operating under the impression that Cyborgs should automatically just be as good, or better than, humans, when that has not been the intended design direction of Paradise in... pretty much as long as I can remember.

2 hours ago, shazbot194 said:

ecurity borgs cannot use any lethals, at all minus the harmbaton, but this puts them into range of their direct counter, a flash whereas officers get AEGs, xray guns with xray implants, Adrenalin, shotguns, auto rifles, massed laser guns ect

Which, as I pointed out, they still require either IC authorization + a reason to use this stuff, and/or having someone else unrelated to them do their jobs. By comparison, a Security Cyborg is a self-contained machine that don't need no man Scientist in RnD.

2 hours ago, shazbot194 said:

Service borgs get the shortest end of the stick as they almost directly need a person to help them to make some of the basic drinks.

Service Cyborgs also dispense trays and plates, and come with a guitar.

They're general entertainers and servicemen, not bartenders.

2 hours ago, shazbot194 said:

I honestly do not see one aspect of any borg that dominates it's field for long, with one exception, and its the mining borg which matches miners mining ability when upgraded, but is still heavily limited whereas miners are not.

- Any Cyborg VS Shadowlings;

- Security Cyborgs VS anyone relying on slips/stuns;

- Medical Cyborgs handling basic Brute/Burn/Toxin/Oxyloss (Hypospray spam VS a human having to either drag them to cryo or get medication);

- Janiborg VS Janitor. Seriously, this particular battle is stacked hilariously in favor of the janiborg. Plus, lube;

- Engineering Cyborg VS anyone without an RCD

When spending so much time looking for if a Cyborg is completely excelling at their field, one often overlooks the many (more) minor advantages they possess.

Cyborgs are not meant to be upgrades over humans. They're supposed to be more specialized "sidesteps".

2 hours ago, shazbot194 said:

I am not saying they should be as good as crew in all areas, but they should be able to at least match the crew in some and not be outpaced fully 20 minutes into a round

Hyperbolic sentence is hyperbolic. You're assuming that Science will, always, in 20 minutes, complete research and equip the crew to such a degree that Cyborgs become useless.

Basic observation reveals this isn't true in a vast majority, if not totality, of cases. And even WITH the crew on full swing, you still have Cyborgs excelling in certain areas, such as:

- Immunity to pretty much every single chemical;

- Immunity to lack of oxygen;

- Immune to stuns apart from flashes (which even then are limited in being acquired and require quick timing in melee);

- Immune to theft, literally always carry around a small cabinet's worth of tools with them regardless of how active the Greytide is;

- For Medical Cyborgs, the ability to perform (relatively) safe surgery anywhere, anywhen, by using a roller bed and the grab bag of tools always at their disposal (see above point);

- For Security Cyborgs, an immense amount of disabler rounds and baton charge when compared to a Security Officer;

- For Engineering Cyborgs, still an RCD

I could go on and on. The list of things that a cyborg has as a convenience over human crewmembers is one that, for whatever reason, is being completely overlooked in this thread over a belief that they should somehow still be "better".

[Monstrant]

Why was the decision made, that server should move that way? Can we hear a justification with evidence for that decision?

I am not a sillicon player but I do it now and then. I find that medborgs are lacking. Maybe some QoL for engineering one and sec service borg but thats all. I find sec borgs over powered if I am not in science. I am not for giving them hands in any way. However I do agree the medborg needs some ups.

The policy being followed here directly violates principle of equivalent exchange. A human is a jack of all trades who is truly able to do all. They can be a doctor an engineer you pick. They are not restrained by a kit. As a cyborg I should be able to fully do MY job because i cannot do OTHER jobs like humans.

I get

-No Free Will

-No Flexibility

-No Easy Recharge

-No Easy Stun Recovery

-Additional Upgrades

+Immunity to Theft

+Spessproff

+Chem immunity. (IPCs also have it yet they are not considered over powevered for some reason. Oh yes because they are balanced)

Thats all I can think off. If I want to be a super doctor or at least a normal fully functional doctor why cannot I not be one even though I effectively slaved myself?  Why does the staff think it would be bad for that to happen?

[TullyBBurnalot]

2 hours ago, Agent_Che said:

 

Why was the decision made, that server should move that way?

 

RE: The Github regarding most decisions regarding Cyborgs so far.

2 hours ago, Agent_Che said:

Can we hear a justification with evidence for that decision?

We can't offer you a signed declaration stating "This is what we want to do".

What we can offer you is the history of the GitHub up until this point and the opinion of long-term players.

This is how we've been running server direction. There's not really any reason for us to suddenly 180 and start going the other way.

[Varlun]

2 hours ago, Agent_Che said:

The policy being followed here directly violates principle of equivalent exchange.

I agree. Tully claims Cyborgs are supposed to be side-grades, but all in all- at least in terms of the mediborg- they feel very underpowered compared to their human counterparts. They feel like a downgrade. And I'm not even talking about the lack of free will, etc. I mean just talking about the amount of tools on hand. The infinite chemicals and defib is really nice, sure, and I'm not saying medborgs need to be THAT much more powerful (I've made several threads regarding things that I think should change), but I think the basic design philosophy needs to change so that Cyborgs are expected to be better at their specific jobs than their human counterparts. Humans are flexible. Borgs are not. Humans are jacks of all trades, masters of none. BORGS SHOULD BE THE MASTERS.

[EvadableMoxie]

I don't hate borgs.  I hate that that there is a role that can decide to join any department at any time with complete disregard for job slots. That's why people hate borgs but have no problem with IPCs.  That's also where the "Dey Turk Ur Jerbs!" mentality comes from, and it's not exactly wrong. There are reasons there is a set number of slots on jobs and borgs completely screw that up.  The more powerful borgs are going to be, the more people will want to be borgs.  Right now being a Borg has some serious limitations and that's what prevents a significant part of our huge graytide from getting borged.  But let's say you buff borgs and now you have a dozen graytide signing up for borgings every round? What then? 

The only reason borgs aren't completely oppressive right now is because most people don't want to play them due to the annoying and arbitrary restrictions on them.  The people who do play them see these restrictions and want them removed.  Because they're annoying and arbitrary. That's understandable but the problem is, these restrictions are the only thing stopping the rise of the machines. 

If you really want borgs to be equals, lets make them need a job slot and make them take up that job slot. Until that happens I don't think borgs should be able to do any more than they already can. 

Edited May 20, 2017 by EvadableMoxie

[Varlun]

4 minutes ago, EvadableMoxie said:

-Snip-

Your post is completely self-contradictory. The fact that Borgs DON'T take up job slots, means they literally don't "take anyone's jobs". If they DID take up job slots, THEY WOULD LITERALLY PREVENT OTHER PEOPLE FROM TAKING THOSE JOBS. So, while I agree with you on the arbitrary restrictions, your idea of making them take up job slots is absurd, and in fact directly goes against what you yourself want. The mentality of "They took our jobs" is in fact very, very wrong. Borgs are just there. They're not stopping the humans from being there too. Also, as far as IPCs, they are literally just metal humans. They don't have any different functionality- they're not borgs. That's why people have no problem with them.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Varlun

[EvadableMoxie]

2 minutes ago, Varlun said:

Your post is completely self-contradictory. The fact that Borgs DON'T take up job slots, means they literally don't "take anyone's jobs".

There is X amount of work for departments to do.  When you add a borg who does some of that work, there is now less work for everyone else to do.  We sign up for jobs with the expectation that we'll have things to do.  When that isn't true because our departments are above capacity due to borgs that ignore job slots, the game-play experience for everyone is directly and negatively impacted. 

That's why we have a cap on 5 doctor slots, so we can't have 10 doctors running around, because there isn't enough work for 10 doctors to do.  But we can have 5 doctors and 5 borgs, which means less for everyone to do.  If Borgs took up job slots, we'd have 5 people doing the job of doctor.  It doesn't matter if it's 5 humans and 0 borgs or 0 humans and 5 borgs or some mix in between.  It's still a limit on how many people are actively working in that department, which is what matters.

[Varlun]

1 minute ago, EvadableMoxie said:

-Snip-

I understand what you're saying. However, for one thing, from what I've seen it's somewhat rare to have more than 1 or especially 2 medical borgs. When I play medical borg myself (which is always), it's very very rare for there to be a second medical borg. And as far as myself is concerned, I operate as an emergency response unit. I only worry about the most critical of situations. Literally people in crit, or people who have died, or people suddenly accumulating damage on the crew monitor at the far end of the station. Most of the time I sit in the medical lobby, waiting for things to happen. But the point I'm trying to make is, that if there is another doctor around who is able to tend to someone, I let them. I don't purposefully try to occupy myself- just the opposite. I don't need to be tied up with someone who could otherwise be taken care of by another doctor, when something else goes wrong that could need my attention. If I'm busy in the rest of medbay, I won't be there to respond to the dead/critical people brought in through the lobby. So I am a fallback. I'm not saying that's how all medical borgs operate, but it's what I do. And again I'm talking about medical borgs specifically.

All that being said, I do understand that if medical borgs (and borgs in general) were improved to the point where suddenly a bunch of people want to play them, then sure, this could be a concern. But for another thing, the job slots do not automatically adjust as the round goes on. Paradise is a really popular server, and the job slots will be the same if there's 20 people playing or 80. They have to be manually changed by the HOP. I'm gonna guess that basically doesn't happen. So if anything you should be thanking Borgs for assisting with needed roles, as opposed to having more graytide.

[Twinmold]

Borgs do not need to be the 'masters' of anything. Borgs have many advantages, including time and speed, that other players must prepare for ahead of time or wait. For example, unless the AI is following you, a cyborg can get into anywhere faster than a player that doesn't have all access, and on top of that, cyborgs can get into most rooms that are bolted shut that players must hack open unless they are emagged. This can many times save 10 to 20 seconds, which doesn't sound like much until you understand that's all the time it takes for someone to be killed. For a medical cyborg going after an injured, they can start healing them on the way back to medical from more critical situations (at least stemming the damages) better than any other role in medical prior to getting to medical. Once in medical, a medical cyborg is also capable of fixing up the person in about 95% of the cases on their own with no interference (this is including in my statistics as a human doctor, what I play, where VERY rarely do I need to pull out/replace organs (amazing, <1% of the time with the exception of brain transplant, a maybe 2% at most, which object removal making up the remainder of the percentage, 2-3%).

Medical Cyborgs are already pretty powerful in all rights as are, coming from a player who's main character is a doctor. They don't need to be 'better', which a fast medical cyborg is on par with me, and there are very few doctors who are 'masters' of their field and have the speed that a cyborg can have. It all depends on the player and their skill. The 'not having hands' aspect of all cyborgs is something that's existed longer than I've been playing Paradise, and something that isn't going to change.

'They should be equal' is not going to be a valid work or argument, because let's be honest in two regards: Firstly, they shouldn't be equal, and secondly, they each have their own pros and cons already that makes them benefit in difference ways. The list that was noted earlier? Carbons have to prepare to counter a lot of those things, cyborgs don't.

 

Want to counter no air? You need to have a tank ready, equip it, and your default one is only about 10 minutes of air on default settings. Cyborgs can just charge in, no waiting, good to run from encounters.

Want to counter atmospheric damage? For cold, any space suit will do, but you have to acquire a limited-access item to do it. Cyborgs can run right in. For heat/fire? Carbons have to get an atmos suit or CE's suit. Cyborgs can ignore heat for the most part, and for fire they can run through it without too much issue as long as they get the damage taken care of. (PS, atmos is becoming more dangerous, so why would you claim this makes no difference?)

The immunity to most chemicals has come up, so the only real counter to cyborgs is EMP/flash. What's wrong about that? There are a LOT more counters to players than that, including a huge list of chemicals that can help and hurt them that they have to take time to try and counter.

Cyborgs are immune to ALL sicknesses and MOST antag abilities. For example, against vampires, cyborgs are completely immune to glare, something that can screw over a carbon quickly unless they have the blindfold, and someone isn't normally just going to carry that with them as it's highly limited.

You cannot steal from a cyborg and you cannot disarm spam a cyborg. Cyborgs can also easily push you away from them.

With energy requirement, that's no different, really, than an IPC with the exception you must use a cyborg recharger (same as drones). There are two in robotics, one on the AI satellite, one in the dormitories in the last bathroom stall, and one in engineering (why'd you forget this one?).

You can interact with electronic equipment, such as APCs, air alarms, etc, at range. Carbons must have ID access and unlock it to interact with it. You are more capable of solving some issues much quicker than waiting on engineers.

With 'immortality', there are more things that can hurt Carbons than cyborgs. If you get killed in maintenance, just like a player, it's just as likely you won't get found. With cyborgs, anyone who checks the Cyborg Console will know your condition as you cannot disable their sensors. With Carbons, you can disable suit sensors.

The 'free will' is assuming the AI is going to order you to do things, or that most players are going to order you to do things. And depending on your laws, you may be able to outright ignore the person. Crewsimov, for example, puts protecting of crew above the orders of crew, so if you are actively protecting/saving someone, you can tell the crew to sawed off because you ARE following your laws in listed order.

The lack of hands is hardly a debuff, as even as a Carbon a lot of the things I'd need hands for when I'm a doctor, for example, I don't interact with. Only really picking up items is about it. Cyborgs have far more advantages than disadvantages, and are supposed to focus a single department. But they also have advantages outside their department that Carbons (in most cases) don't have, including more freedom of movement and interacting with systems. On top of that, why would Carbons reasonable make Silicons better than themselves beyond what they have already? Consider the RP implications, as well. We already know how bad it gets when cyborgs rise up against the crew, and they can easily take down the cyborg console and make it so crew cannot just lock you down or blow you with ease. That's just called planning.

[Monstrant]

1 hour ago, TullyBBurnalot said:

This is how we've been running server direction. There's not really any reason for us to suddenly 180 and start going the other way.

But there is no reason to try against that? Maybe it will work? Maybe the players will like it? Its not that big of an issue to let medborgs complete organ surgeries and implantations. As I said I need to be able to do MY job fully because I cannot do anything else.

[Spacemanspark]

So you miss out on a few small surguries? Not a big loss, really, especially with what you already have.

[TullyBBurnalot]

4 minutes ago, Agent_Che said:

But there is no reason to try against that? Maybe it will work? Maybe the players will like it? Its not that big of an issue to let medborgs complete organ surgeries and implantations. As I said I need to be able to do MY job fully because I cannot do anything else.

Because borgs as designed right now are the "end goal", so to speak.

They were designed, intentionally, to be like this.

"But maybe people will like it" is not in any way a valid, or even good, justification to start branching off and ignoring the few parts of server direction we have on lockdown. Ideas stand on their own merits, on hypotheticals, and as it has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, borgs are working as designed and working as intended, with strong points and weak points.

You keep trying to make an argument for equivalent exchange. That is literally the least of our concerns.

[Varlun]

Since I think it's relevant to this thread, I'm going to take this opportunity to link to those threads I mentioned. I'm not necessarily trying to argue that medical borgs should be way more powerful or given drastically better functionality (I'm definitely not an advocate for hands). These are some really simple suggestions that for the most part are quality of life.

 

[Twinmold]

The reason to try against it is simply what's the point? It's more than just a few people wanting to add hands when you have plenty more people who do not want them added, because it'd give the cyborgs too much power. Part of balance is ensuring no single entity is too powerful. Cyborgs get a lot of bonuses that Carbons do not. Why make them more powerful? From a real-life and role-play perspective, they would NEVER be more powerful than a Carbon, or even better than a Carbon, for fear they'd rise up (which already does happen in the game). Secondary comes from the role-play aspect that if you make them completely independent, everyone loses their jobs and now you have something 100% of the time better and you might as well not play the role because cyborgs are better. It's the same with using the 'best' methods: We don't want to support people always using the absolute best methods, but to work with others to do things. Hence, cyborgs still need to interact with crew. It's a role-playing game at it's core aspect, and part of game design is remembering that and working around that so that it's still a proper multiplayer game, not a 1-does-all game solo game.

[Varlun]

3 minutes ago, Twinmold said:

-Snip-

I don't think many people are actually pushing for hands or radical increases like that. I am mostly fine with current Borg functionality. I just wish that functionality was -better-. I don't think Medical borgs should be able to do every part of medical, but as for the parts they ALREADY do, I wish they could do that BETTER. I reference you to the threads I just linked as good examples.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Varlun

[Monstrant]

15 minutes ago, TullyBBurnalot said:

 

They were designed, intentionally, to be like this.

Have you considered that perhaps the intent was wrong? Maybe, a big maybe, that would be better, we can roll back any time. There is nothing preventing us from trying. The "end goal" does NOT have to be the end. Its about must and must nots in this case. I believe we can give it a try.

 

Well have you considered that the merit of this idea is, the failure of your intent when designing the robots? That there is a better way? The end goal here, so to speak, is both player and admin satisfaction and there is no way except practically estabilishing through an investigation which idea truly serves the end goal the best.

15 minutes ago, TullyBBurnalot said:

 

You keep trying to make an argument for equivalent exchange. That is literally the least of our concerns.

 

Then what is the point of having a dialogue? "Well we dont care, we have a vision, which we think is the best" Without a doubt you are the owners so you have the right to decide what is the going to happen or not. But what you think is the best, is not necessarily the best. You seem to have a great passion/like pick your word, for scientific method Tully, so why dont we conduct a study to find what would be truly the best?(this is not an ad hominem, I just saw your statistics posts, thats where I got the idea from )

15 minutes ago, TullyBBurnalot said:

borgs are working as designed and working as intended, with strong points and weak points.

 

The argument here is that there is too much weak, too little strong. Despite facing indefinite disadvantages on multiple levels some players feel that there could be a better way to handle this "balance scales" situation.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Monstrant

[Monstrant]

5 minutes ago, Twinmold said:

It's more than just a few people wanting to add hands when you have plenty more people who do not want them added, because it'd give the cyborgs too much power.

Correction, I am not advocate for hands. Organ manipulators which allow

 

11 minutes ago, Spacemanspark said:

 a few small surguries

to be completed.

I am arguing that administration should try to be a little bit more open minded. I feel that some cyborgs are over powered like security ones. If I am not in science I have almost no way of dealing with these without EMP kit which is frankly quite expensive (Well i have other things to use TC for)

[Monstrant]

We are basically running in circles at this point. There is no reason to try to change server's direction a little or not try not to change it. Although as stated earlier this is not a democracy which I understand. Yet I suggest that we open another thread with poll which asks about this issue. There you must contribute an opinion paired with a vote regardging the issue INDEPENDENT of others. That thread is not going to be another discussion thread, its a forum where basically you either write your own form of opinion or vote for somebody else using karma system ( I am talking about the opinion comments themselves not the poll ) As the dmin team correctly pointed out, older players do have a privelege of understanding the game better, Such resolution counts  that in. In no way am I suggesting for this poll to be binding to the admins. Just an advisory referendum of sorts.

[Varlun]

They don't care about polls, they don't care about popular opinion. They care about their vision.